Trader - Subguild

[EldritchOrigins]

As Cavilish is the legacy of the dune tradersof times go past and not really required to do business, it's more of a distinguishing characteristic that marks those that speak it as the merchant elite.

I think by making it more available to players without heavily mechantile/merchant house backgrounds detracts from the flavor that the language provides.  I'd think it'd be better if some guild merchant characters didn't have it, rather than them all having it.

However, I don't think Cavilish is a heavily guarded secret, like Tatlum for example.  Anyone that really wanted to learn it could, if they wanted to go through enough trouble.  If the skill were made more accessible to non-merchant types, I think it would be cool to add a Cavilish/Dune Trader accent as a to help distinguish the merchants with the Cavilish culture from those without (dividing the pretenders from the "real thing").  This too could be learned, but it'd take time, about the amount of time it should probably take to really learn about this sort of thing.

[Barzalene]

This was mentioned earlier in the thread. I'm resisting the urge to branch out to rtw or rat and I'm keeping it in this thread, where it's maybe appropriate. I really advocate taking cavilish out of the merchant guild and reserving it for GMH family and life long employees (who'll be taught by their employers.)
Not so much because of guild sniffing as to give the GMH some more territory of their own. And also because it's one more way to have haves and have nots. And those having it when they shouldn't will be another source of tension and conflict.

[Armaddict]

I agree with the 2 posts before mine.

[zaraj]

I also agree with Barzalene and Eldritch. I do faintly recall that at least one merchant clan still has in their docs that they fiercely protect Cavilish from outsiders. "Don't teach it to anyone but also don't hire a scrub off the street unless said scrub speaks it!"

[Lizzie]

I also agree with Barzalene and Eldritch. I do faintly recall that at least one merchant clan still has in their docs that they fiercely protect Cavilish from outsiders. "Don't teach it to anyone but also don't hire a scrub off the street unless said scrub speaks it!"

Well to be fair, that one clan that fiercely protects Cavilish, hasn't had its clan docs updated since 2004.

[Bluefae]

The combination of cavilish + haggle with a combat guild is what really sells this to me.  It's a great combination for anybody with a mercantile background.

     +1.  I've nearly special app'ed for this very reason.

[Incognito]

This thread started by stating the requirement for a sub-guild with the Cavilish language.
The thread progressed with discussion about the Con-Artist sub-guild, and whether it should be modified to include this extra "feature".
It then turned to discuss the usefulness of Cavilish in the Merchant guild - with posters voicing their opinions that it is not an essential requirement, from their experience.
Finally, the thread has turned to the point where it has been voiced that the Cavilish language should be removed from the Merchant guild entirely, and reserved for Great Merchant Houses only.


A few thoughts and opinions on this subject - after having played more than my fair share of Merchants.

1) Every merchant worth his salt, would know Cavilish - its not a luxury, or something to do with finesse or a flare for the dramatic - its a requirement for merchants to deal with other merchants, and get the best possible trade - a merchant who communicated with another merchant in Cavilish would be able to achieve far better results than someone who spoke another tongue - even "common". Speaking Cavilish shows the other person that you are part of the small cadre of traders who has taken the time to master the tongue, solely to further your trading/merchanting/haggling prowess, and that counts for something.

2) Even a small-time wheat dealer from Red Storm East might communicate in Cavilish with a wood trader up in Tuluk - its part of the whole haggling and bulk trading routine - it is by no means something elitist that is reserved for the GMH's only. That being said, I would go so far as to agree that writing Cavilish might be reserved for members and employees of the GMH's (to begin with), but that too could be taught in-game to others.

3) Think of Cavilish as knowledge of the trade.
Here's an example: Lets say you walk into an auto garage and ask the mechanic "Hey my car's spoilt, can you help me fix it?" Chances are he's gonna check the car, then overcharge you for the parts, and maybe even add in a few items which you didnt need to change in the first place. Instead, if you went in and said "Hey, I need a 12 inch double overhead cam, 3 spark plugs, and a filter for my carburetor." - he'd know you know what you're talking about, and give you just the right goods at the right price, coz he'd be wary to overcharge you or trick you.

4) A merchant on Zalanthas would and should, always use Cavilish, wherever possible, its just 2nd nature to them, it helps them get things expedited, and achieves the optimal results in the process. Players who think that the language is a useless part of the Guild, are not thinking like a cut-throat merchant! Would a warrior trained to use a chisel to fight, when he's trained to use a sword? The answer is no. Thats how Cavilish should be viewed - a tool of the trade, and a very powerful one at that. Its not just an "elite" language, whose only use is "believed/percieved" to be, to exclude people around you from understanding your conversation.


Summing up - I personally strongly oppose the removal of Cavilish from the Merchant guild at all. If the players want a new sub-guild which includes that language, thats another thing.
Again, my experience is, that if your background requires it (as a starting skill), chances are very bright that a special request to the Staff with sufficient explanation, will help you out as far as getting Cavilish added goes.**

** Disclaimer: Of course this is on a case-to-case basis, and depends on your background and your actual need for the additional language, and other factors - which are usually taken into consideration by the individual Staff members.

Edited to add: I forgot to mention, that one of the main uses of Cavilish on Zalanthas is that it facilitates inter-racial trade between people who might speak different native languages, by providing a common basis for commercial trade.

[Synthesis]

[spicemustflow]

Really, what makes Cavilish such a powerful tool of trade for a cut-throat wheat dealer? I don't get it. What is the purpose of two merchants speaking Cavilish between themselves? It's not like there's much of a language barrier in the world if we don't count elves and savages and they're not likely to learn cavilish any more than sirihish. If its purpose is not to be understood or overheard there are better and easier ways to do that.

[Qzzrbl]

Telling a mechanic, "Yo, something's broke." in Sirihish is no different than saying, "Yo, something's broke." in Cavilish.

Same as telling a mechanic, "Alternator's shot, I've quoted prices from other mechanics, five large is a fair price." in Sirihish is no different than telling a mechanic, "Alternator's shot, I've quoted prices from other mechanics, five large is a fair price." in Cavilish.

Oh, and this is from the dox.

Because of the history of Cavilish, it is sometimes referred to as the Merchants' Tongue, since it is used almost exclusively by the current members and owning families of Merchant Houses.

And I know, it says "almost" exclusively-- but having every stinking goddamn merchant, be they d-elf or 'Rinthi, start with cavilish doesn't make it "almost" exclusive enough.

[Armaddict]

Every merchant worth his salt, would know Cavilish - its not a luxury, or something to do with finesse or a flare for the dramatic - its a requirement for merchants to deal with other merchants, and get the best possible trade - a merchant who communicated with another merchant in Cavilish would be able to achieve far better results than someone who spoke another tongue - even "common". Speaking Cavilish shows the other person that you are part of the small cadre of traders who has taken the time to master the tongue, solely to further your trading/merchanting/haggling prowess, and that counts for something.

All of this that you're referring to is exactly why I disagree with it being so easily had.  This isn't subguild material, this is devotion and training, and access to someone willing to teach it.  Hence why it is generally found within merchant houses and the elite, which the change would only serve to make no longer elite.

When you walk through the bazaar?  Those are all traders.  I'd be willing to bet that the vast majority of them don't speak cavilish.  It is not required for business as you say, it's a status symbol.  Again, not subguild material.

[Marshmellow]

But you don't have to be a dedicated crafter with all the other skills that Merchants get too in order to be dedicated to the art of buying and selling things.

[Armaddict]

But you don't have to be a dedicated crafter with all the other skills that Merchants get too in order to be dedicated to the art of buying and selling things.

Sounds to me like haggle.

[Qzzrbl]

But you don't have to be a dedicated crafter with all the other skills that Merchants get too in order to be dedicated to the art of buying and selling things.

Sounds to me like haggle.

[Marshmellow]

No, 'Haggle' is skill at making deals, not dedication to making deals.

[bcw81]

Haggle should never be without Cavilish, it's like two versions of the same skill. One for NPC merchants and one for PC merchants.

[Marauder Moe]

Heh, I've never seen two people switch to Cavilish to haggle.

GMH merchants are (apparently) urged not to spread the language to outsiders and thus only use it among themselves.

Non-GMH merchants don't assume their buyer/seller also knows Cavilish, which is a fair practice, seeing as sometimes they like to sell/buy from people who aren't crafters.

[Synthesis]

Haggle should never be without Cavilish, it's like two versions of the same skill. One for NPC merchants and one for PC merchants.

Somebody's never played a city elf....

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Language skills are inaccurately represented by code. You can not be taught a language skill. You can only pick it up by random accident. It needs to be harder to pick up a language skill randomly, but it also needs to be teachable.

I'd suggest that the watch skill be the switch for randomly learning languages. In other words, if you watch the elf a lessened chance of the current system of learning a language is in play, and if you are not watching the elf then you have no chance of learning the language. Then you'd allow languages to be taught per the existing system for the teach skill. In this way, exclusive languages like Tatlum and Cavilish could be used in a public arena without every Tom, Dick and Harry learning them even when they don't want to.

[FantasyWriter]

A definite statement from staff on how they feel Cavilish should be handled in the game world, would be of great help with this discussion.

/hint hint

[Talia]

"help cavilish"

"help merchant"

Personally, I really don't think there's a need to say more than what's already in the documentation.

[spicemustflow]

Haggle should never be without Cavilish, it's like two versions of the same skill. One for NPC merchants and one for PC merchants.

Why? Does cavilish have like 20 words for "you're ripping me off"?

[My 2 sids]

When I think merchant I think of a city-type business person.   Trader... I envision more of a goods-mover/ caravan-traveling/ almost a rustic cowboy.   Where as the merchant might rely upon her relationships to make a sale,  a Trader has the advantage of specialized and unique merchandise.

Value
cooking (spice is a commodity, knowing how to use it would be useful + not the kind to rely on houses to provide meals)
shield use/ heavy defensive  (not a fighter, but someone who can at least reasonably make their way around)
Maybe even Guard (they probably travel with merchants)


But, because the emphasis is on items, not relationships,  I don't see having them over-lap with the skills that make Merchants and Linguists so highly prized.

[wizturbo]

Really, what makes Cavilish such a powerful tool of trade for a cut-throat wheat dealer? I don't get it. What is the purpose of two merchants speaking Cavilish between themselves? It's not like there's much of a language barrier in the world if we don't count elves and savages and they're not likely to learn cavilish any more than sirihish. If its purpose is not to be understood or overheard there are better and easier ways to do that.

I've always thought of Cavilish of being an adaption of bendune that includes extensive trade siphers to allow for math, measurements, and other descriptive qualities of goods etc.  I see it as a language that's perfect for trade, with an extensive vocabulary that surpasses other langauges ability to communicate under such matters.  For instance, the word "Erdlu" may have twelve different variations in Cavilish to elaborate on the condition of the beast to better elude to it's potential value or worth.  Being able to say (and understand) that a given flock of erdlu is in excellent shape, with healthy lineage and worthy of being used for breeding all in one word is obviously an advantage in trade.  Those with extensive backgrounds in merchanting obviously picked up this language.

The next and significantly more powerful tier of the language is the written form, being one of, if not the only legal means of city-folk commoners being able to read and write.  It's no surprise this is guarded by the GMH's, to help secure their strange hold on their respective monopoloies.

So yeah, being able to speak it should be a boon in your favor, but I agree completely that it should be accessible via a subguild.

[Mourn]

Whether it's a new subguild or just added to an existing subguild or two, this should be done just to stop the guild sniffing. I'm a week old newb and I've still had the random switch to Cavilish in the middle of a conversation to sniff if I'm a merchant when applying for a job IC used on me more than once. Adding Cavilish to some subguilds or removing it from the Merchant guild would be a great thing for those of us who are crafters but not guild Merchant. Special apping every single assassin, pickpocket, burglar, or whatever that you want to have get a job as a crafter/aide so they can speak Cavilish is not a viable solution to the problem.