Subjective sdescs

[Cutthroat]

Comparative descriptors are not subjective, nor are they objective. Of the three, two are allowed in descs and sdescs: comparative and objective.

http://www.armageddon.org/general/races.html <- This doc describes exactly what is meant by "short" and "tall" as each race has a height range associated with it. This doc does not cover the rare person (mutant?) born with dwarfism or gigantism, in which cases the person special apping such a character would likely be using a word or phrase like "midget".

Most humans stand between 68 and 78 inches in height

So "the tall, <adjective> human" is closer to 78 inches (that's 6 feet, 6 inches, or 198cm, which is certainly tall by our standards on Earth), perhaps over that if we're talking about a special app.

All elves stand between around 75 and 96 inches in height

So "the tall, <adjective> elf" is closer to 96 inches... and so on and so forth.

References to height and weight about a Zalanthan race in a desc or sdesc are relative to those ranges in the documentation, not the observer... unless the observer has to then describe the person he saw, then they would have to know how their height compares to his or her own, instead of just parroting the sdesc.

This is not at all a big deal if you can assess and describe or imagine PCs in a sufficient manner.

[X-D]

Yes.

I can look at a tree and say that it's tall.  However, it may be a short tree.

Again, it's 'the tall man', not 'taller man than you.'  Different things.

Same thing. If he is shorter then me then he is not the tall man, he is the short man.

And Yes Cutthroat, but not the point I'm really trying to make before the derail on definition of subjective.

Yes, Amos is tall compared to the average as long as he is over the middle point, but it still remains subjective on all counts first of all. Secondly, A SDESC is supposed to be the things about your PC that stand out at a glance.

This is not at all a big deal if you can assess and describe or imagine PCs in a sufficient manner.

And that is much of my point, in most cases the use of subjective words in a sdesc gives me nothing to work with.

Your PC being 2 inches taller then the ones around him is really not going to stand out much, No matter if you use the word tall or something with 28 letters meaning tall. It is less then creative and gives the players around you little to work with or imagine.

Same applies but 10 fold for other races, The Towering massive half-giant is here...Hey Look, an average half-giant, I mean really, that SDESC literally means Big and tall. The strapping titanic half-giant is here, Hey look, ANOTHER big and tall half-giant.

I mean really, I enjoy that many of the people arguing (wrongly) On what subjective is are the same people who usually want to push for creativity.

Even worse when staff allow people with karma to get away with things like Brute...twitch...What does brute look like anyway? But ignore that, that is another thread as well:)

COME BACK MOE!

[Nyr]

My dispel failed.

I see this is going to be a thread with one side saying "I can see how this is reasonable" and the other side saying "nuh uh! It isn't! Let me show you!"

I don't know that you can out-reasonable anyone that has the argument "x is not acceptable to me" when your position is "I don't see much of a problem with it."

[Nyr]

Also, what Cutthroat said, and the last thing Moe said. Ya'll take care, now.

[Case]

Less subjective, more seductive plz

[Qzzrbl]

If it's of any consolation, I just had an app rejected for being rejected.

[Sephiroto]

Less subjective, more seductive plz

The long-legged, f-me female....  Oh wait..."long" is subjective.  *facepalm*

[Feco]

This is "the giant, fat housecat."

Unless I'm grossly misinterpreting what you're saying, by your reasoning, if I were standing in the room with it, it would be the "short, light housecat," because I'm mutch taller and much heavier than it.

I'm not seeing how that makes any sense.

[Cutthroat]

Yes.

I can look at a tree and say that it's tall.  However, it may be a short tree.

Again, it's 'the tall man', not 'taller man than you.'  Different things.

Same thing. If he is shorter then me then he is not the tall man, he is the short man.

No. He is short compared to you, but tall when compared to all men. That means you are both tall compared to all men. I realize that is repeating what has already been said, but apparently it bears repeating.

Three people are placed into a room. Their heights are 64, 77, and 78 inches. You're the last one.
64-inch-guy thinks: Wow, those other two guys are tall!
77-inch-guy thinks: Har... Cutthroat said there would be three people in here, not two and a half.

Would you, 78 inches tall, think
These two guys are short.
or
That one guy is short, but that other guy is tall, almost like me.

And Yes Cutthroat, but not the point I'm really trying to make before the derail on definition of subjective.

Yes, Amos is tall compared to the average as long as he is over the middle point, but it still remains subjective on all counts first of all.

The problem is you're still assuming "tall" is according to your perspective. That would be subjective, but that's not at all the point of a sdesc.

Secondly, A SDESC is supposed to be the things about your PC that stand out at a glance.

An unusual size would stand out at a glance, as would other unique features. The concept of an sdesc isn't perfect, and it's impossible to describe a person with accuracy and in good detail with only 35 characters to work with. It is more than likely that players are trying to get basic facts into their sdesc which they can expand upon in the mdesc.

And that is much of my point, in most cases the use of subjective words in a sdesc gives me nothing to work with.

You have the entire mdesc, which will surely have objective descriptions in them (his hair is green, his skin is blue, et cetera) as well as more comparative descriptors.

Your PC being 2 inches taller then the ones around him is really not going to stand out much, No matter if you use the word tall or something with 28 letters meaning tall. It is less then creative and gives the players around you little to work with or imagine.

Same applies but 10 fold for other races, The Towering massive half-giant is here...Hey Look, an average half-giant, I mean really, that SDESC literally means Big and tall. The strapping titanic half-giant is here, Hey look, ANOTHER big and tall half-giant.

Perhaps many PCs could be tall, but there are also NPCs and vNPCs, so yes, they would "stand out". As to creativity, you're probably right. But sometimes it isn't easy being creative with an sdesc, and the mdesc provides a lot more space for a player to really get creative about how their PC looks.

I mean really, I enjoy that many of the people arguing (wrongly) On what subjective is are the same people who usually want to push for creativity.

I don't see how those two groups are related, nor do I see the problem in arguing about the actual concept of subjectivity when the OP barely demonstrates an understanding of the manner in which words like "tall" are almost always, if not always, used by players in sdescs.

I can't put it much clearer than that, and I really tried.

[Synthesis]

Eh, human PCs can be up to what, 6'6"?  I'd say that's well beyond average, if we're assuming the Zalanthan average is the same as the Earth average.  No problem at all seeing someone with the sdesc word "towering," especially after spending Thanksgiving with a dude who was 6'7".  He was, indeed, towering.  Even another 6'7" man would be thinking, "Damn, that dude is tall, too."  If you're beyond the norm of something, it doesn't mean you're epistemologically challenged such that you are unable to differentiate the population mean from what you experience as normal.

[Feco]

I'd like to add that I'm not ignoring the fact that a person who is 7' tall could consider someone 6'3" tall short.  My point is that the man who is 6'3" would be considered tall if you know the entire span of human height (throwing out outliers).  If you want to dispute the definition of "tall," than we need to stop arguing about this, and argue about that first.

Since we are aware of the ENTIRE range of different race's height/weight (excluding outliers), tall, fat, etc. are all fair adjectives.

Is "the tall, muscular man" the most creative, or best sdesc?  No.  I think it's dull and boring.  That doesn't make it less legitimate.

[X-D]

I don't know, Is that a big fat house cat or a really small woman?

(BTW, Wow, that does "look like" a massive cat is it yours?)

Again folks, past the first few posts I'm mostly messing around with ya'll.

Though, I would enjoy seeing less Subjective (in any form) Sdescs and more, what is really interesting. After all, mdescs are not always available.

Synth, nothing at all in the docs says or even hints that zalanthus humans are in any way based on earth humans other then when it used to say they were the closest to compare.

And True Cutthroat, the point to a sdesc is to give the things that make your PC stand out from others. What would be MOST noticable about them. And I concede that if your PC is bland in every way but being somewhat taller or shorter then the ave then height might be sdesc worthy. Or other basically subjective descriptions.

But hey, what is the harm in asking people to consider other things, I mean what, is there not something like 30,000 words to choose from in the English language alone?

And wanting the section in chargen to maybe make a bit more of a push towards the less subjective  or at least away from subjective or relative? I mean after all, they have found that even beauty can be measured, though I cannot use that to describe my PC.

How do you get an app rejected for being rejected anyway?

And Nyr, I'm less arguing reasonable and aiming more for preferable.

Not like it is a game breaker for me in any direction anyway.

Man, Bogre, we are so far past that.

[Bogre]

I only really take issue with it if it is not true (they aren't tall for their race, they aren't old for their race, they show beauty subjectively, etc).

See now, that's the thing, unless they are spec app, they are NOT tall for the race. They are in fact inside the average range not outside it. I'm 6' 200lbs, I am not tall or heavy for a human, Andre the giant was, Manute Bol was. But they are outside the norm.

The ranges of the normal distribution, I imagine, would be a bell curve. We are free to make short elves- those on the extreme low end of the average heights we can pick. IRL, people around or over 6 feet tall are generally described as being 'tall'. You don't have to be 6'7" to qualify as tall.

[Feco]

I don't know, Is that a big fat house cat or a really small woman?

(BTW, Wow, that does "look like" a massive cat is it yours?)

Nah.  Just Googled "big fat cat." 

[Zoan]

I AM SO ANGRY AND AGREE WITH EVERYONE IN THIS THREAD.

[Barzalene]

I AM SO ANGRY AND AGREE WITH EVERYONE IN THIS THREAD.

Huh?

[boog]

Doesn't lofty mean something about bearing anyway?

Ahh, yeah. Heck yeah. I was right. Anyway - if someone says lofty, I usually go with refined mannerisms or personal hygiene or something -- Square shoulders, tall posture. Something like that.

To be honest, I don't care if someone tells me that their face is common but also hard to forget. I don't care if someone says they have boobs as high up on their chest as the Shield Wall to the sky. I like reading peoples' descriptions, to see how they want their character portrayed. I'm not gonna get up in arms if a human man is 'towering' and a half-giant is 'stubby', or even if someone tells me their character is alluring.

That said, there need to be more short, Napolean-complex men in game. Please.

[Lizzie]

I AM SO ANGRY AND AGREE WITH EVERYONE IN THIS THREAD.

Zoan is correct.

[Malifaxis]

Meh.  It's racial perspective to me.

My titanic halfling was still one of my favorite PCs.

[X-D]

Woulda been mine too, assuming my PC could stop laughing long enough to fight or run away

[Sephiroto]

Meh.  It's racial perspective to me.

My titanic halfling was still one of my favorite PCs.

Did he get chopped up by a Jihaen with a subjective sdec, or was that a different halfling?

[hyzhenhok]

Meh.  It's racial perspective to me.

My titanic halfling was still one of my favorite PCs.

Did he get chopped up by a Jihaen with a subjective sdec, or was that a different halfling?

The titanic halfling is here, fighting the diminutive Jihaen.

[Bilanthri]

Wow...I really couldn't slog through all of this thread. But I'd like to comment:

I'm 6'5"...have been for years. And, while I am in no way abnormally tall, I regularly have people describe me as, "That tall guy".
In a crowd of "normal" humans, I, and perhaps two or three others, stand head-and-shoulders above the rest.

Yes, I am a tall human, and am described that way by damned near everyone.

[Zoan]

A 3 year old little girl says to her mother in a supermarket, pointing at me, "That boy has hair."

That is, indeed, not a subjective desc. Well done, little girl.

[X-D]

If I ever make another PC it will be "the really tall and large half-giant"