Gender equality

[Whiran Luck]

Adding: It is rare if a female character of mine is given something, that I feel she is given it because 'she can't get it on her own'. Moreso that the giver is trying to seek out her attention or gain her trust or pull one over on her or possibly impress her. As to whether she accepts it, for whatever reason, is up to the character. Sometimes they'll accept it and like the person a little more, sometimes they'll accept it in a counter-bid to gain someone's trust to lull them into a false sense of security to enable screwing them totally over later on. Sometimes they won't accept it because it implies a debt. Sometimes they won't accept it because they're paranoid. And playing female characters, I've also given plenty of stuff both to other female characters and male characters, many times for free, but for many specific reasons and intents. None of those things were oriented in gender-stereotyping (because females need to be taken care of). So while I understand that there are, unfortunately, some players who can't wrap the concept of social/physical gender equality around their minds, it is rare I see this displayed in people giving other people stuff.

[Erythil]

"Chicks get free stuff" is an ooc phenomenon and it isn't exactly chivalry.  It's more like:

More dudes play the game.  Dudes wanna impress the ladies.  Sugar daddies are born.


Personally, when playing a generous character, I've come up against a very strong "make it on your own or die trying" mentality, which makes sense.

[Shepard]

Just as a note:

Tuluk is not gender equal!

Lirathan are above Jihaen, at the moment - I believe

There for women are better than men in Tuluk...

Also, the sexism fits the two orders. The men are the warriors, and the women are the keepers.


Other than that, and the fact that all the Kings in the game are males (obviously, or they'd be queens). Such as Tuluk Muk Utep, Allanak with Tek.


Moreover, I don't think I added anything significant to this conversation, but food for thought.

[boog]

I'm  not sure if I'm spoiling IC information, but when nobles marry, do they all take the woman's name?

[Schrodingers Cat]

Just as a note:

Tuluk is not gender equal!

Lirathan are above Jihaen, at the moment - I believe

There for women are better than men in Tuluk...

Also, the sexism fits the two orders. The men are the warriors, and the women are the keepers.


Other than that, and the fact that all the Kings in the game are males (obviously, or they'd be queens). Such as Tuluk Muk Utep, Allanak with Tek.


Moreover, I don't think I added anything significant to this conversation, but food for thought.

Recently the Order's have changed places with a Jihaen taking the role of... Grand Supreme poobah Precentor.  But you're right, there has got to be a lot of pent up sexual tensions there.

There is one group of people who's "Queen" type figure is a female.  It isn't a big secret but it isn't documented publicly so I'll leave it at that.

[lepxii]

Regarding free stuff, if you don't want it, don't roll up baby doll **** me PCs; you know, the type who are described as absolutely beautiful. You see them around much more than the perfect male Adonis. Typically, they will trot around being all cute and wearing stunning outfits.

My guess is that Armageddon has a stated gender-equal policy because of an influential feminist staff member. However, since most RPGs, MUDs, and Diku specifically do not differentiate between males and females state-wise (though there have been exceptions, gold-box CRPGs (not really a RPG) for instance differentiated between males and females on the strength stat), so in the coded-equality was there by default.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I'm  not sure if I'm spoiling IC information, but when nobles marry, do they all take the woman's name?

No. When nobles marry, the one whom switches houses changes names, male or female.

[Medena]

I'm  not sure if I'm spoiling IC information, but when nobles marry, do they all take the woman's name?

Nope.  This is from the docs on playing an Allanak noble but it applies to Tuluk as well.  It details what happens when two nobles marry:

One partner, which can be either the male or female member, is assumed to have been subsumed by the other's House, and loses all legal and financial ties to their former House.

[Zoan]

Men have more STR, Women have more DEX.

[bcw81]

I had reach, she had flexability.

[jstorrie]

It's worth mentioning that sexism does exist in Zalanthas, but unlike in the irl it's not the norm. If you really want to play in a sexist culture, Arm has several, but they're off the beaten path.

[DrunkenSalarr]

One thing I've noticed in this thread is that people tend to be thinking of one of three different things when they are posting:

• Coded Gender Equality
• IC/RP Gender Equality
• OOC/RL Gender Equality

The last of which has little if any bearing on this thread.
When people say that the gender equality is one of the reasons they play Arm, I have to wonder which gender equality they are speaking of?

If it's coded GE, that's true of most muds and RPGS, in my experience.
If it's IC/RP GE, I can see it as a "hey, a gender-neutral setting, that's different", but I still don't see what it has to do with the price of spice in Red Storm.
If it's OOC/RL GE, which I fear it is for some people, good for them, and I'm glad to have you playing, but Real Life notions of morality should have little to nothing to do with why you play a game, unless you are just looking to play something you are either a) comfortable with, or b) you find ideal, depending on what those OOC values are that you are looking for.

Codedly, the game is gender neutral for most, if not all races - it's just codedly easier (but only slightly so) - for all I know there could be non-standard races with balanced gender differences (wouldn't be surprised if there was a race with physically stronger female, but mentally/psionically stronger males, or perhaps with the reverse).

ICly, It doesn't matter to me one lick if the setting is gender neutral, or if there is a dominant gender (regardless of which) as there are fantastic RP opportunities all around.

OOCly: RL notions and morality, as I stated before, should not have any effect what-so-ever on what your character feels or does inside the game.  Your PCs live in a setting with certain moral averages, in the average case: gender matters little, magick is feared, elves are distrusted, and slavery is not just an every day part of life, but is crucial to the survival of the society.  No matter how you personally feel, these are the social norms.  Straying from them is fine, but don't stray too far, and if your vocal about how you've strayed, be prepared to be treated as anyone who strays from their society's norms.

As for why the policy of Gender Equality, I never really thought about it or cared, it was just a part of the setting (like fearing magick, but not like hairless dwarves).

[brytta.leofa]

I enjoy the gender-equality of Arm's dominant races and societies because it's an interesting and foreign setting.  I would also enjoy playing out serious social gender biases...because it'd be an interesting and foreign setting.  Real life, for most of us, is somewhere in the middle.

[Drayab]

I've gotten into a bit of an Armageddon debate on another forum, and one of the issues people seem to have is the concept of gender equality.

Personally, I like the fact that it's a part of Zalanthas, but I'd like to ask why it was incorporated?  Some people have claimed that it's merely to avoid sexism, because the developers were somehow afraid of not being politically corrent.  This is obviously not the reason here, but I'd quite like to know what is.

One thing I've noticed in this thread is that people tend to be thinking of one of three different things when they are posting:

• Coded Gender Equality
• IC/RP Gender Equality
• OOC/RL Gender Equality

The last of which has little if any bearing on this thread.

...

As for why the policy of Gender Equality, I never really thought about it or cared, it was just a part of the setting (like fearing magick, but not like hairless dwarves).

I don't want to be rude, but please allow me to be blunt. I suspect that the reason that you don't think OOC/RL Gender Equality differences has anything to do with OP's question because you never really thought about it. The reason is very simple. It contributes to your sense of escapism, and it makes the game more fun to play. People don't come here to play real life, they want to play something different. Yes, chopping up mofos with bone swords, but also playing a rude warrior woman who wields the bone swords, and everybody agrees she's still a woman.

[Marshmellow]

Just as a note:

Tuluk is not gender equal!

Lirathan are above Jihaen, at the moment - I believe

There for women are better than men in Tuluk...

No.  Just, no.  Just because Lirathans are currently ranked higher than the Jihaens does not mean all women in Tuluk are better than men.  You also don't know what's going on behind the scenes and can only comment on things that are public.  Also, they switch back and forth so are you saying that sexism switches when they switch?

[Barsook]

It's equal in the world of Arm.

[Reiteration]

I agree with gender neutrality because I believe that people should not be restricted from roles based off of gender alone. However, I don't agree with the blanket policy in which everyone appears to be lacking sexism of any kind, and as a result can at times break immersion for me. It'd be like god's voice coming forth and saying "You are all christian now, deal with it." it just doesn't happen, I want the choice not to have my character's personality overruled.

At least that is what I am pulling together based on the current thread.

[lordcooper]

It'd be like god's voice coming forth and saying "You are all christian now, deal with it." it just doesn't happen, I want the choice not to have my character's personality overruled.

I'd become Christian if that happened.

[Drayab]

I agree with gender neutrality because I believe that people should not be restricted from roles based off of gender alone. However, I don't agree with the blanket policy in which everyone appears to be lacking sexism of any kind, and as a result can at times break immersion for me. It'd be like god's voice coming forth and saying "You are all christian now, deal with it." it just doesn't happen, I want the choice not to have my character's personality overruled.

At least that is what I am pulling together based on the current thread.

The documentation tells you what are the societal norms, but you are still allowed to play a sexist character. This thread is about the policy that tells us about the norms. Don't confuse this thread with one about whether your character is allowed to stray outside of the norms.

[Ender]

I agree with gender neutrality because I believe that people should not be restricted from roles based off of gender alone. However, I don't agree with the blanket policy in which everyone appears to be lacking sexism of any kind, and as a result can at times break immersion for me. It'd be like god's voice coming forth and saying "You are all christian now, deal with it." it just doesn't happen, I want the choice not to have my character's personality overruled.

At least that is what I am pulling together based on the current thread.

The documentation tells you what are the societal norms, but you are still allowed to play a sexist character. This thread is about the policy that tells us about the norms. Don't confuse this thread with one about whether your character is allowed to stray outside of the norms.

This is exactly correct.  We're used to a lot of these things BECAUSE they are societal norms, but you have to think of them in the completely different context.  Like for example, you can have a deep seeded hatred of the Irish today in modern America, but a lot of people are going to think you're really strange if you keep bitching about it at the bar.  You are free to RP any personality you like, but what I'd like to see more are people who are AWARE that their attitudes are not normal.  Like here's a list of things that really get under my skin:

• 
  elves/magickers/half-elves acting shocked/hurt when people treat them poorly.  YOU SHOULD EXPECT MISTREATMENT and if you've made it to a certain age you've most likely developed a tolerance and acceptance to it one way or another.
• Additionally people who are quick to defend elves/magickers/breeds from mistreatment, even if they're your best buddy, you should still expect them to be constantly mistreated.
  
• People freaking out about/having problems with slavery openly.  Regardless of what your liberal minded character thinks about slavery, you've made it to adulthood by most likely learning to keep your trap shut about it, because nobody wants to hear your weird beliefs.
• Casual sexism.  This is not the norm, if you say something like "well, I won't want her for this mission because she's a woman." expect to be ready for a confused response of "What in Krath does that have anything to do with it?".

An example I can think of is say a group of Byners are at a table, three humans and one breed.  Someone in the bar says something bad about the halfbreed.  What should be the normal response from his fellow Byners?

A.  "How dare you insult our comrade, he's fought valiantly by our side for years and saved my life more times than I can count.  I DEMAND SATISFACTION RAWR!"
B.  "Well, you may have saved my life countless times, but he is right, you are a dirty breed, and if I flipped out every time someone pointed that out I'd never have a moment's rest.  Ain't my fault a filthy elf raped your ma."

[Kismetic]

A.  "How dare you insult our comrade, he's fought valiantly by our side for years and saved my life more times than I can count.  I DEMAND SATISFACTION RAWR!"

Lulz.

Prefacing this to let it be known that I like the gender equality of Armageddon.  Any combative character, past or present, has beat up (or been beaten up by) women with absolutely no regard to gender.

Now, branching off to say that I feel like some OOC perceptions influence the IC actions of some characters, and it is gender related, and it is an inherent flaw in having too much OOC information available.  Like, for instance, a male PC treating female PCs with preferential treatment, -except- the female PC known to be played by a male.  Alternately, I think you can flip the script on this (ha, gender equality), and it has been also true.  This has and does happen, I think.  Thankfully, I don't think it's very common.

Edit:  I should add, that if my post has derailed, it's because previous posts have stimulated the thought process.

[a strange shadow]

Everything Ender said, a thousand times over.

[Jingo]

An example I can think of is say a group of Byners are at a table, three humans and one breed.  Someone in the bar says something bad about the halfbreed.  What should be the normal response from his fellow Byners?

A.  "How dare you insult our comrade, he's fought valiantly by our side for years and saved my life more times than I can count.  I DEMAND SATISFACTION RAWR!"
B.  "Well, you may have saved my life countless times, but he is right, you are a dirty breed, and if I flipped out every time someone pointed that out I'd never have a moment's rest.  Ain't my fault a filthy elf raped your ma."

I want to point out that there really isn't a wrong answer here. Racism isn't explicitly stated in any of the web documents. Whereas gender equality is.

[Ender]

An example I can think of is say a group of Byners are at a table, three humans and one breed.  Someone in the bar says something bad about the halfbreed.  What should be the normal response from his fellow Byners?

A.  "How dare you insult our comrade, he's fought valiantly by our side for years and saved my life more times than I can count.  I DEMAND SATISFACTION RAWR!"
B.  "Well, you may have saved my life countless times, but he is right, you are a dirty breed, and if I flipped out every time someone pointed that out I'd never have a moment's rest.  Ain't my fault a filthy elf raped your ma."

I want to point out that there really isn't a wrong answer here. Racism isn't explicitly stated in any of the web documents. Whereas gender equality is.

From the half-elf docs:

Roleplaying:
Accepted by neither humans nor elves,

I thought that was pretty clear.  Lack of acceptance is not only a pretty strong indicator of racism, it is the core symptom of it.

[Drayab]

We're getting off topic here, but I'll also point out that you can derive some conclusions about how half-elves and other non-humans are viewed by society by considering the hiring practices of the various noble and merchant houses. Ask yourself: why would they have a policy like this?

In an attempt to re-rail the thread, I'll also point out that for entry level jobs for your standard Zalanthan commoner, there is no preference for males or females, explicit or implied. However, some of the higher echelon roles are male or female only, like the Tuluki templar orders.