Mining. Realism?

[Qeynos]

It's definitely possible to survive mining for a living if you're wily and lucky, but if you go out enough, something or somebody will eventually kill you.

I think the reason you see so many 'miner' characters who don't end up dying to hazards while mining is because mining is a starter occupation often preferred by newer PCs fresh out of chargen. After a certain point, they get a different job or their skills increase to the point of where they can live off their guild's abilities and be a hunter/merchant/whatever, and they stop mining for a living, like your Bynner example.

Sure, if you go out mining twelve times and don't die, then for those twelve trips, it will be 100% safe to you. But like everything else in Armageddon that seems risk-free on the outside, it's only a matter of time. Trust me.

Compared to many other professions, mining is infinitely safer. The simple fact that nothing can happen unless the natural game world is manipulated by outside forces makes it absurdly easy. Just about anything you do in this game will eventually get you killed, and a lot of things are a lot less profitable and a lot more dangerous. Like I said, unless you get PKed, or someone has dragged a scrab into the mining area and you aren't capable of typing 'flee' (and bear in mind, for both of those scenarios, that mining happens practically within sight of the gates of Allanak) then nothing can happen to you. You can make literally hundreds of 'sid per in-game day from this completely trivial and almost always risk-free venue, and I just don't think it's quite right. The only thing it doesn't do is increase your skills, but then you can do it for a few RL days and buy everything your character will ever need. I think this sort of thing contributes strongly to the broken economy and the lack of incentive to take jobs with clans and all those other elements of roleplaying that are compromised when making money can be so trivial. Mining isn't the sole culprit, but it is by far the most readily accessible and most frequently utilized.

[Talia]

I think this sort of thing contributes strongly to the broken economy and the lack of incentive to take jobs with clans and all those other elements of roleplaying that are compromised when making money can be so trivial.

Not Official Staff Opinion (tm), just my personal staff opinion: Players who don't like joining clans are not going to become magickally happy to join clans if the "easy" ways of making money get taken away. Getting players to join clans needs to be more about what is actually attractive in clans and not about the pain of not being in one. There are players for whom piling up money in low-interaction ways is really important as some measure of achievement in their own minds; it's kind of a hack-and-slash holdover, sure. But if they want to play that way, I think it's OK. They are not really hurting the game, because when it comes down to it, money alone can't buy you love/hate/death/wagons/plots (all the really good stuff) in Armageddon.

[Marshmellow]

Mining is NOT safe, no matter how it appears.  Hanging out with my character, on the surface, appears ridiculously safe too.  It isn't.

Mining is NOT the most lucrative thing your character can do.

[valeria]

I think there is a lot of exaggeration going on in this thread.  I personally don't think mining isn't as safe or lucrative as it's being made out to be.  Especially not to the extent of being "broken," particularly in light of similarly safe-ish and lucrative IC activities that characters can engage in around the same area.  It's not always safe-ish, and it's not always lucrative. 

But congrats on being lucky enough that it feels that way to you  .

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

At first, I thought the idea was pretty neat, but when I look at it, I no longer want to see it in game.  The idea is neat, but the concern is so trivial that to be honest, it's not worth it. Let mining continue to be profitable, because compared to shit digging, it's infinitely more dangerous.

[Timetwister]

I think this sort of thing contributes strongly to the broken economy and the lack of incentive to take jobs with clans and all those other elements of roleplaying that are compromised when making money can be so trivial.

There are players for whom piling up money in low-interaction ways is really important as some measure of achievement in their own minds; it's kind of a hack-and-slash holdover, sure. But if they want to play that way, I think it's OK. They are not really hurting the game, because when it comes down to it, money alone can't buy you love/hate/death/wagons/plots (all the really good stuff) in Armageddon.

I really disagree with this. Can you clarify that you think it's OK that a significant amount of players do this sort of thing? I mean last time I checked on TMS or TMC It read Roleplaying Is Enforced for Arm. I don't want to turn this into some sort of debate about how the staff handles that "enforcement" but I am disappointed to discover that any staff member would think it's okay that any player does this. Arm never needed more enforcement in the past, if you powergamed or got out of hand you would get karma stripped, your PC killed or worse, now it seems like we're on the opposite side of the spectrum and a player can do just about anything they want and enforcement won't happen because staff or players can't define what somebody else's idea of roleplaying is?

Do we really need player's that never emote and just mine and become rich and garner the best gear they can find? I don't think that's playing a role at all, that's just metagaming/powergaming/grinding or whatever you want to call it.

[Talia]

Flippant suggestion: Add a "cut self" command to the game so that hardcore roleplayers can take damage while mining for glass, and/or for half-elves to use.

[Talia]

Do we really need player's that never emote and just mine and become rich and garner the best gear they can find? I don't think that's playing a role at all, that's just metagaming/powergaming/grinding or whatever you want to call it.

You completely read into what I said and took it where it was never intended to go. I didn't say "It's OK for players not to play realistically while they're mining for obsidian," I said "It's OK for players to refuse to join clans and, instead, support their PCs through risky independent money-making schemes, because it doesn't impact the world to any significant degree as far as what's really important."

Sheesh.

[Gunnerblaster]

The Staff see everything, Timetwister. I don't know what crawled up your ass and died but I'll be sure to shoot the shit out the next miner I see.

Just for you.

(Not really. Well. Maybe.)

And something else I would like to add - There are obsidian mines but, to my knowledge, glass is an all together rare (and challenging to acquire) resource. I have not seen any VNPC glass mining operations, though I have seen obsidian mines.

[Timetwister]

Do we really need player's that never emote and just mine and become rich and garner the best gear they can find? I don't think that's playing a role at all, that's just metagaming/powergaming/grinding or whatever you want to call it.

You completely read into what I said and took it where it was never intended to go. I didn't say "It's OK for players not to play realistically while they're mining for obsidian," I said "It's OK for players to refuse to join clans and, instead, support their PCs through risky independent money-making schemes, because it doesn't impact the world to any significant degree as far as what's really important."

Sheesh.

I understand that. My point from the beginning of the thread is that they shouldn't be so well off without clans. Why join a clan for supposed benefits ie: water/food/room and board and a measly paycheck when you can become filthy rich off mining obsidian.

[Lizzie]

Because the purpose of joining a clan isn't to get rich. If that's why you're joining a clan, OOCly, you're joining it for the wrong reason.

It sounds like you have chosen to measure "success" in Armageddon exclusively by the amount of sids in the bank. Perhaps you aren't realizing that this is an -extremely- narrow-minded perception. I've had extraordinarily wealthy PCs killed, and come out the victor. Does that make them a success, because they died with over 100,000 sids in the bank? I've also played someone who amassed thousands, and was assassinated by someone less wealthy, but FAR more politically influential. Does that make me the winner, because my character died richer?

Widen your perception. Sids don't mean shit unless someone is offering to sell you influence. And - influence isn't cheap and in some cases, you can't use sids to pay for it.

[Gunnerblaster]

Do we really need player's that never emote and just mine and become rich and garner the best gear they can find? I don't think that's playing a role at all, that's just metagaming/powergaming/grinding or whatever you want to call it.

You completely read into what I said and took it where it was never intended to go. I didn't say "It's OK for players not to play realistically while they're mining for obsidian," I said "It's OK for players to refuse to join clans and, instead, support their PCs through risky independent money-making schemes, because it doesn't impact the world to any significant degree as far as what's really important."

Sheesh.

I understand that. My point from the beginning of the thread is that they shouldn't be so well off without clans. Why join a clan for supposed benefits ie: water/food/room and board and a measly paycheck when you can become filthy rich off mining obsidian.

Most would give you a 'find out ic', right about now - But I'll put it like this, not everyone wants to mine. Not everyone even has the stamina to mine.

And whether you've encountered it or not, there are plenty of inherent dangers tagged along to mining.

The only thing I would care to see is something you mentioned earlier - That glasshackers break. Not very often. I don't want to pay 70 coins for it than swing it 3-5 times and have the shit break off in my face, doing horrendous damage.

No. That's where I want to backslap the shit out of your idea. There are already plenty of stupid ways to get hurt, in-game.

You would think with the riding-fail penalties, if you were a fresh character using a mount, you would most likely be a bit banged up by the time you got out to the mines. I do not want to see someone lying by the obsidian deposits, 'mortally wounded and on the verge of death', because they had shitty luck with mining.

If mining obsidian was -anywhere- else in the Known, I would call for a 10/20 'sid cut to the value of it, but since it's only found in one of the economically shittiest areas, I am inclined to say leave it as it is.

And another thing that is more of a 'find out IC' thing that I'll touch on, very lightly, is that a certain HUMONGOUS FUCKING MOUNTAIN OF FLAMING DEATH has appeared. You don't think there was more of something there before it ripped out of the ground, like Ruk's angry hemorrhoid?

[Nyr]

Is it just me or does anybody else find it somewhat laughable that people can go to town on a huge chunk of glass or obsidian and not suffer any ill effects besides getting a bit tired? I mean realistically you would cut yer hands up pretty bad even if you wore protective gear. You're hacking at glass with a stone tool. It's such a cheap way to make money as well for PC's there should be some drawback besides the chance of running into a mean PC that might want to raid you.

In retrospect I guess it is a fantasy game, but I've always valued Arm for implementing things that make sense in a way. This has been in for a while and I guess it's just now becoming a pet peeve of mine.

If you see people doing this on a regular basis without RP, please put in a player complaint.  It's not entirely likely that every PC every time will cut up their hands on glass or obsidian in large quantities.  They might on occasion.  That's up to them to roleplay.  There are also many drawbacks besides PCs, including wilderness beasts and the like.  Also, being rich isn't really important.  If someone is spamming up some automated system in-game to make money, they aren't garnering any social power or political clout to use that 'sid.  File a complaint if you have one, we can look into it, but otherwise, anyone trying to game any system to make a ton of 'sid isn't going to be able to use it to become powerful.  They're just a big fat target for people with enough wisdom to recognize an easy mark for theft.

[Marshmellow]

You don't join a clan, even a clan that's rolling in money, because you want to get a pile of coins.  You join a clan because they provide security.  Sure, some of that security comes in the form of coins, but more of that security comes from everything else they provide:  a safe place to keep things, free food/water, protection through the greater political influence of the clan.  They also provide OOC benefits, including making certain you have other people to do things with.  Independents will always make more money, provided the player has the time to play to do so...

...but no matter how many coins Nenyuk says are in that bank account, it doesn't mean anything when you and a Borsail are both trying to hire the same assassin to kill the other off.  That assassin should, if smart enough, even if you're offering 10x what the Borsail is, go with the Borsail's offer.  Nenyuk gets to keep all those silly coins that mean nothing in the long run.

Remember, and you said it yourself, Timetwister, that clans give you more than just coins.

[Qeynos]

Not Official Staff Opinion (tm), just my personal staff opinion: Players who don't like joining clans are not going to become magickally happy to join clans if the "easy" ways of making money get taken away. Getting players to join clans needs to be more about what is actually attractive in clans and not about the pain of not being in one. There are players for whom piling up money in low-interaction ways is really important as some measure of achievement in their own minds; it's kind of a hack-and-slash holdover, sure. But if they want to play that way, I think it's OK. They are not really hurting the game, because when it comes down to it, money alone can't buy you love/hate/death/wagons/plots (all the really good stuff) in Armageddon.

To me, it seems like this phenomenon sort of undermines the spirit of the game. Catering to players whose goal is piling up money in low-interaction ways doesn't do the game any good, and absolutely does come at the expense of others, from the clans that sorely lack members to the players who have more realistic incomes but compete with those willing to shamelessly drain the money vein. Clans are basically what makes the world go round; big thing happen that are unrelated to clans, but clans do make up the backbone and foundation of the game, and the undeniable fact is that many of them are crippled by a lack of players, sometimes perpetually and other times for long periods. Without clans, the game world is without much purpose. Clans already lack the incentive for players who seek combat skill growth, because many of them do not offer it to anywhere near the extent that independence does. They also lack the wealth incentive because clan pay is absolutely pitiful and often restricts you from most other potential sources of income. One has to wonder what came first, and which has a stronger representation in the game: players who don't want to play in clans for unrelated reasons and must thus be offered a way of generating significant wealth without being subjected to the normal restrictions and efforts thereof; or players who do not join clans because they can easily achieve their goals without doing so through the aforementioned option, but would otherwise have joined clans.

As for its influence, it affects many aspects of the game, and money absolutely can buy you some, most, or even all of the things you listed. There's no shop that sells it, but being able to pocket 1k a day with minimal risk and effort certainly does open up possibilities that aren't there for the guy holding a realistic job. Compared to the guy making 100 sid per IG month or whatever clans tend to pay the average employee, the guy raking in 500-1000 per RL day can have any number of advantages and options simply because of that artificially gained wealth. He'll have far better material options, for one. He'll be much more capable of bribing and buying favors. He can simply use hacker deposit his way to the first step toward most of the things you mentioned, and despite what people tend to suggest in these kinds of discussions, going against the grain of realism and the spirit of the game in pursuit of some questionable goal does not leave you completely unable to do anything else; the obsidian-grinder will have ample time to roleplay, opportunities to gain influence (possibly to a greater extent due to the added wealth), can make plenty of contacts, find true love, make enemies, ride wagons and whatnot. He won't (necessarily) be the member of a clan, of course, but the type of character whose clan membership out-strips all the benefits of technically limitless wealth is probably not going to be concerned about all this. The far greater proportion of average characters certainly can be compromised in various ways by putting into the game a way for any old character to pull money out of the sand.

Like I said, mining isn't the only way to do this, of course. It's just that anybody can do it, at pretty much any time, and it takes no effort or commitment beyond going out, spamming the command, and going back to some indoors room to rest. You could potentially make more money through such venues as Red Storm tailoring, but that takes skill, starting funds, and significant time spent out of the way of everything else. Mining only takes a glasshacker and fifteen minutes of the day.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Flippant suggestion: Add a "cut self" command to the game so that hardcore roleplayers can take damage while mining for glass, and/or for half-elves to use.

I'd change it to harm self, and use it for all sorts of roleplayed self inflicted damage, or damage taken while roleplaying. Tripping down stairs, commiting suicide, emoted fights, roleplayed torture, etc, etc ... flippant though it was, Talia, it was actually a very good idea.

[Talia]

I understand that. My point from the beginning of the thread is that they shouldn't be so well off without clans. Why join a clan for supposed benefits ie: water/food/room and board and a measly paycheck when you can become filthy rich off mining obsidian.

To me, it seems like this phenomenon sort of undermines the spirit of the game. Catering to players whose goal is piling up money in low-interaction ways doesn't do the game any good, and absolutely does come at the expense of others, from the clans that sorely lack members to the players who have more realistic incomes but compete with those willing to shamelessly drain the money vein. Clans are basically what makes the world go round; big thing happen that are unrelated to clans, but clans do make up the backbone and foundation of the game, and the undeniable fact is that many of them are crippled by a lack of players, sometimes perpetually and other times for long periods. Without clans, the game world is without much purpose. Clans already lack the incentive for players who seek combat skill growth, because many of them do not offer it to anywhere near the extent that independence does. They also lack the wealth incentive because clan pay is absolutely pitiful and often restricts you from most other potential sources of income. One has to wonder what came first, and which has a stronger representation in the game: players who don't want to play in clans for unrelated reasons and must thus be offered a way of generating significant wealth without being subjected to the normal restrictions and efforts thereof; or players who do not join clans because they can easily achieve their goals without doing so through the aforementioned option, but would otherwise have joined clans.

I'm not sure where you are getting your "facts," but...you're wrong. Yes, individual clans do go through down periods and cycles, they also go through up periods. Looking around the game world, I do not see any clans that are "crippled" because some players choose to play indie. I don't agree with your logic in the least.

Forcing players into clans is the wrong way to go about things. If some players want to avoid clans and not really dig into the social/political roleplay possibilities of ARM, fine. Let them. They're not breaking the game.

Often, players in general seem to think that limiting choices is the best way to get others to "conform" to their personal idea of how the game should work or their personal experience of what is fun. Remove tribes! Remove a city-state! Remove the ability to be independent! Remove clans, arrr, down with clans! Remove sponsored leaders! Codedly stop commoners from wearing silk! Ban tavern-sitting! Forbid attractive characters! Why is that magicker looking at me! Rabble rabble rabble!

Let people play what and how they want within the bounds of the code and documentation. They are not hurting you, except that you are allowing yourself to become perturbed by what you are perceiving as a problem. Obsidian mining in particular has been balanced out somewhat within the last couple of years, as other coded ways to rack up coin have been. If you have a particular complaint regarding what you think are ways to abuse any of the money-making systems, you're always welcome to submit a report about that so staff can look it over.

[Lizzie]

We have tdesc for people who want to show that they've caused themselves harm - it's more effective than coded infliction of hp loss, simply because - hp loss can regen quickly. You could "harm self" at the obsidian deposit, and be at full health by the time you get back to the Gaj.

The idea of a harm self could be a nice RP tool, but not very practical given the existing regen code.

[Timetwister]

I've always supported a harm self command either way. I hope the discussion continues because it seems like we're getting somewhere with everybody's point of view and idea's.

Nyr - thanks for that post, I will definitely begin using my newly discovered player complaint tool. I never knew it was even there.

[Qeynos]

I'm not sure where you are getting your "facts," but...you're wrong. Yes, individual clans do go through down periods and cycles, they also go through up periods. Looking around the game world, I do not see any clans that are "crippled" because some players choose to play indie. I don't agree with your logic in the least.

I think you misunderstood. These clans aren't crippled because some players choose to play indie, but there most certainly are clans that are periodically crippled by lack of players. Making independence exceedingly easy seems like at least a contributing factor. The ability to get rich without trying (and the ability to get buff without training, but that's another discussion) seems like an obvious element in this.

Forcing players into clans is the wrong way to go about things. If some players want to avoid clans and not really dig into the social/political roleplay possibilities of ARM, fine. Let them. They're not breaking the game.

Nobody wants to force players to join clans, but mining goes starkly in the opposite direction and makes what should be a menial, unhealthy, dangerous and shitty job the potentially most lucrative profession available to commoners. This is not necessary. The game doesn't need it. Players who have no desire to play in clans have all the right in the world to pursue that playstyle, but it should come at a price, not with an added benefit. It is perfectly possible to play independent in any number of other ways that won't make you stinking rich. Mining is like all those Get Rich In One Month With Bob's Self-Help Book!, except the difference is that the books are a scam. Things like dung-digging, cotton-picking, scavenging and hunting are done right. Mining is done wrong, and I am discussing the potential damage to the game caused by these get-rich schemes that are too easy and not schemy enough. I hope you can at least acknowledge that argument. If anyone is interested in looking into this, please also take a gander at Red Storm craft-selling and the spell component item values.

Mining could be brought in line with the rest of the game's income model in three fairly simple steps:

1) Make the obsidian sell for less. The process of gathering it is only slightly more arduous than clay, cotton, shit etc. Unworked obsidian that literally sprouts out of the sand doesn't seem like it ought to be worth a hell of a lot.

2) Remove or strongly ease the limitations on how much the mining office guy will buy. This will prevent one character from completely cornering the obsidian market like they currently can and, with the lowered value of the material, should not be too big of a deal.

3) Put some natural danger into the mining area. A single scrab that spawns in the area or some other natural hazard that doesn't make mining utterly risk-free when other PCs aren't bothering you.

[Talia]

Nobody wants to force players to join clans, but mining goes starkly in the opposite direction and makes what should be a menial, unhealthy, dangerous and shitty job the potentially most lucrative profession available to commoners. This is not necessary. The game doesn't need it. Players who have no desire to play in clans have all the right in the world to pursue that playstyle, but it should come at a price, not with an added benefit. It is perfectly possible to play independent in any number of other ways that won't make you stinking rich. Mining is like all those Get Rich In One Month With Bob's Self-Help Book!, except the difference is that the books are a scam. Things like dung-digging, cotton-picking, scavenging and hunting are done right. Mining is done wrong, and I am discussing the potential damage to the game caused by these get-rich schemes that are too easy and not schemy enough. I hope you can at least acknowledge that argument.

OK. I don't entirely disagree with you that mining is stupid. I think, probably, if we were building Armageddon right now (...hey, wait! ARM 2 ), that mining would be implemented differently and/or not at all. I do think there are other economic activities that are similarly not perfectly implemented, however, all of these seem like holdovers from a long-gone (more H&S) era of ARM. I don't necessarily believe that it's worthwhile to change/retcon those activities at present, however, in the new game I feel very confident we won't see their like.

[Potaje]

From a realism standpoint, I don't really agree. The only characters that can get away with having at a deposit with impunity are those with a big stamina pool, those with a tent, or those who know their way around the wastes. That these kinds of people have an easy time of making money doesn't strike me as unrealistic.

From a balance standpoint, grebbing and hunting around Allanak is infinitely more dangerous than grebbing and hunting around Tuluk, so it's only fair the the rewards would be greater.

This makes me think of the gold miners in the old west. out with their muls, working a -claim-. Some made a nice discovery and would later become the new monies and empires of America, some would be bought out or work for those of old monies and yet some would just get claim jumped.
But I agree that it is probable and realistic that some grebbers would make it big.

[brytta.leofa]

Qeynos, your basic point is sort of not wrong--I think you're putting too much value on clans; different strokes and all--but your judgement of the degree of the "problem" is off.

Mining is more dangerous and less profitable than you're suggesting, at least for a mundane human with reasonable playtimes.

[Nyr]

I'll acknowledge the following:

there is the possibility that some player exists with the following qualities:
-lots of free time both peak and off-peak
-the desire to use this time to mine stuff regularly to make money
-the desire to use this money to funnel it into gaining political or social clout
-the time to make 'sid, spend 'sid, and unrealistically try to buy their way into power

this same player would be noticed OOCly:
-by staff
-by annoyed players who are legitimately trying to do the same thing

this same player would be noticed ICly:
-by legitimately influential people wanting to become richer
-by templars
-by nobles
-by Nenyuk
-by anyone opportunistic

The instant a player tries to use a significant portion of any wealth they've gained without social or political connections, they face the possibility of being consumed alive by the powers that be.  Even legitimately influential and powerful independents in the past got their asses handed to them on differing occasions by people with far-flung political power.  Illegitimately rich people that stick their necks out get them chopped off.  If they never stick their necks out and instead spend their money on smaller things, does it matter how much 'sid they have?  I would say "no."

[X-D]

I agree with Nyr on all points.

And would like to reinforce one.

anyone trying to game any system to make a ton of 'sid isn't going to be able to use it to become powerful.  They're just a big fat target for people with enough wisdom to recognize an easy mark for theft.

PCs that use whatever means to amass large amounts of wealth with little risk do indeed add to the game. They make nice big fat targets for those of us that play raiders, thieves and more.

You really think that the cool looking hat Joe the miner bought from the Muark is rare and actually worth the 2,000 sid he paid?