ZOMFG is 'rinth Allanak or is it not?! OMFG!

[Malifaxis]

This is where you argue about this crap.

Right here.

Now.

[X-D]

Meh, I was done though.

But hey, why not.

They are considered nakki citizens only some of the time, IE, it all depends on which templar you talk to.

Most rinthers do not consider themselves nakki citizens, most Nakki players do not consider themselves part of the rinth or consider rinthers nakki citizens. And to top it off, it is an area that is KNOWN that the highlords justice/protection do not reach. That distinction alone puts it outside allanak. Hell, even the villages and such that are outside allanak codedly have templars, soldiers, crime code. It has been a while since I have read the docs on the rinth, but last time I did it was mentioned several times that the rinth population has a very much "us verses them" mentality when thinking about ANYBODY outside the rinth. And last I saw there was a group of soldiers at the rinth entrance the same as at the other two gates to the city. If it swims like a duck, quacks like a duck...it just might be a duck.

As to how important the distinction is...shrug, I think it is greater then what the staffer weighing in thinks.

But since it got started because of a random want of celf tribes. I think it is a huge distinction. The Jaxa pah is in the rinth, all the tribes involved are also in the rinth. It is a rinthi tribe BEFORE it is a nakki tribe.

Some people do not play the rinth, but do like playing elves. For those people the choice is, no coded tribe, A tribe in a crappy location with even more going against them socially then just being an elf or the north. (nothing against the north tribe, I like them, but sometimes you don't want to play a tuluki mindset).

[Cutthroat]

The Labyrinth is a part of Allanak. It's described in several docs as a "quarter of Allanak", a "part of Allanak", and so on. But it's obviously a little more complicated than that.

For the purposes of considering "Allanak clans", which is why this topic came up in that other thread in the first place, I would count the Jaxa Pah and the Guild in that group. The reason for that is simple - these clans can/should be interacting with the various southside clans from time to time, due to their nature. The fact that 'rinthers tend to join these clans is irrelevant - people from the Labyrinth can join other clans, and southsiders can join the Labyrinth clans. Whether it is wise to do so is another story.

Considering reasons like protection/lack thereof and citizenship status, I'd say it's a debatable IC topic.

[Semper]

Since I live near Detroit, I'll use that as an example. There's some good parts of Detroit, but people know the 'hood' and other shadier parts of the city is someplace you don't want to get lost and found in. It's still included as part of Detroit, but you rarely see any police openly patrolling there, at least during nights unless they're aiming for a big raid, etc. Probably can be extended to other major cities with high crime.

So is the 'rinth part of Allanak? Yes, but it's almost like a completely different culture/city with how separated it is from the rest of the city.

[added] Another classic example from Detroit. There's certain roads where you can see the 'clear' difference between where the hood starts, and you could walk down a street and have one side look like shit and the other side look like any other suburban neighborhood, all colorful and nice.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

While the Rinth may have its own policies internally, I've always believed that in the end, it is Allanak Abandoned. When it comes down to it, they share the same walls. Allanak built it, and left it to degradation. Just because that's where the scum goes doesn't mean that it's not part of the city. Isn't it neat, anyway, that you can always look North-side to find the worst? Convenient, I'd think, were I a Templar. On top of that, there are plenty of rats who go worship ... just because more people there don't worship the Highlord than south-side doesn't make it separate.

[Bogre]

It's part of Allanak. Also remember that there are a lot of rinthis who aren't rinthi born, but outcasted/only able to survive on the north side.

[Spoon]

It's in Allanak, just like UnderTuluk was in Tuluk. There's only one way to differentiate though, and that's starting equipment! It's a different 'location' you choose, so on an arguing location basis, it's different I think.

(er, you got different starting equipment in UnderTuluk right?)

[Marshmellow]

Actually, I was done, too. 

[Qzzrbl]

Yep.... Physically part of Allanak.

Socially, not so much.

Actually.... I don't even think 'Rinthers are considered citizens of Allanak.

At least not until they learn the southern accent. x]

[Riev]

Sometimes I am irked by the constant 'rinter attitude of "Well, damn those Southies always coming up here" etc etc, but usually that is when I -am- a southie. On the other hand, I understand entirely that the 'rinth is basically an abandoned portion of the city where the Arm doesn't go just because they don't really care too much.

So on this whole debate, and concerning the original point of contention, I think that the Jaxa Pah should not be considered an "Allanaki" c-elf tribe. This is because, often times, there are guards along the entrances, the area isn't ... I don't know... socially friendly... when compared to the Akai Sjir in Tuluk. AS's base of operations is in an area of the city that is not nearly what the 'rinth is to Allanak, so its like comparing apples to... well... unripened apples. They're similar, but one just isn't quite there.

[Qzzrbl]

On the other hand, I understand entirely that the 'rinth is basically an abandoned portion of the city where the Arm doesn't go because they're scared.

... Ftfy, btw.

[Potaje]

If Allanak was to be swallowed by the silt sea, and only allanak, the rinth would be gone as well. its still Nak, its the color of nak, ya know it adds color to the city. It would be like saying the gemmer quarter is not allanak, when everyone hates on them, like rinthies, but they still are. Though it may be treated as such it is not a red headed step child but a maternal child. And when it comes to the long arm of the law it is generally ignored but only generally, ya fuck up ya still fall under the auspice of da Highlord's wrath.

[Kiara]

This topic can and has been debated in game as well.

Conclusion: Opinions are like assholes.

[Scarecrow]

Physically the rinth is part of Allanak, yeah. But in other matters I've found it to be seperate.
For instance, I was once a rinthi lad, trying to make an honest go of things. Something bad happened to rinthi person, inside Allanak proper, and the Arm refused to help me. It was "you're not a citizen, I don't care" type of thing. I found this understandable, as the last thing I expect from Arm militia is compassion for a bruised rinthi. However, it does  lead me to beleive the rinthi is part of Allanak in geography alone. Socially and culturally they are dramatically severed. Just my thoughts, anyways.

[Marshmellow]

Conclusion: Opinions are like assholes.

They're puckered and have a definite odor about them?

[Reiloth]

Sometimes I am irked by the constant 'rinter attitude of "Well, damn those Southies always coming up here" etc etc, but usually that is when I -am- a southie. On the other hand, I understand entirely that the 'rinth is basically an abandoned portion of the city where the Arm doesn't go just because they don't really care too much.

So on this whole debate, and concerning the original point of contention, I think that the Jaxa Pah should not be considered an "Allanaki" c-elf tribe. This is because, often times, there are guards along the entrances, the area isn't ... I don't know... socially friendly... when compared to the Akai Sjir in Tuluk. AS's base of operations is in an area of the city that is not nearly what the 'rinth is to Allanak, so its like comparing apples to... well... unripened apples. They're similar, but one just isn't quite there.

The Arm doesn't go into the Labyrinth because the Labyrinth is lawless. Going in there would be suicide, any day of the week. There are a variety of 'non mundane nommy nomz' at any given time (Albeit, not as much anymore) thrown in with a pinch of bloodthirsty elves, a dash of starving children that roam in packs scavenging what they can (and making things into scavenge-worthy objects), etc.

Is the Labyrinth a part of Allanak? Yes. Would I consider any tribe or group in the Labyrinth to be "Allanaki"? Come on, that's insulting! It's like being an illegal alien in the United States; the government will put its dick on your shoulder when it's perfectly reasonable and within their rights to do so. Otherwise, they'd rather pretend you don't exist, because they know it's a problem, but don't know how to solve it. Ever wonder why they didn't just blow up the Labyrinth? It's useful, for some reason, to 'them'.

[hyzhenhok]

Depends on whether it's convenient at the time. For a lazy militia soldier, 'rinthers are not citizens. In terms of a templar levying service by fiat (if the 'rinther has strayed from the 'rinth), sure, they're a citizen. Works the other way, too: despite the us vs. them mentality, I can easily see some 'rinthers at times claiming to be Allanaki, especially if they are aware how their economies are tied together or if they want to feign (or actually have) interest in getting involved in the affairs of the Southside, or the wider outside world.

So the answer would be yes and no; whatever your PC thinks goes (though other PCs might not agree).

[Kiara]

Conclusion: Opinions are like assholes.

They're puckered and have a definite odor about them?

Ex-ACTLY. o.0

I was thinking more along the lines of "opinions are like assholes: everyone's got one."

I like yours better.

[FantasyWriter]

It's "Everyone's got one, and they all stink."

[Synthesis]

It's "Everyone's got one, and they all stink."

Not exactly.

[spicemustflow]

What exactly are you, synthesis? I mean, what branch of med science you do?

[Salt Merchant]

One valid IC question is why Allanak proper doesn't just fully wall off the 'rinth, considering the continuous stream of trouble and unsavory figures emerging from it.

It may be unofficially useful to a few in power, but it must be a continous pain in the ass for the majority in power.

[Qzzrbl]

One valid IC question is why Allanak proper doesn't just fully wall off the 'rinth, considering the continuous stream of trouble and unsavory figures emerging from it.

It may be unofficially useful to a few in power, but it must be a continous pain in the ass for the majority in power.

Because them damn rats will just climb the wall.

[MeTekillot]

One valid IC question is why Allanak proper doesn't just fully wall off the 'rinth, considering the continuous stream of trouble and unsavory figures emerging from it.

It may be unofficially useful to a few in power, but it must be a continous pain in the ass for the majority in power.

They already tried this partly. And those damn dirty 'rinthers got through anyway.

[Shepard]

Also, the 'rinth may be trouble for the low life citizens of Allanak, however the Templars at times have a use for them. They are a great sorce of bribes, they are a great sorce of trouble makers when you need them, they are an invaluable tool for His Shadow!

[Erythil]

The baffling thing about Allanak to me is that its slum has managed to stay pretty much in the same place for generations unto centuries, which is kind of unheard of human affairs.

[Reiloth]

The baffling thing about Allanak to me is that its slum has managed to stay pretty much in the same place for generations unto centuries, which is kind of unheard of human affairs.

Well, we never really had a society where it's puppet leaders can kill anyone, at anytime, for any reason, by both mundane and magical means. For genrations unto centuries. With no real possible chance of throwing 'the government' out with a coup.

The Labyrinth is obv. there for a reason. Crackheads, and 1 Day Old Elf Assassins!

[Malifaxis]

What exactly are you, synthesis? I mean, what branch of mad science you do?

FTFY

[Marauder Moe]

The baffling thing about Allanak to me is that its slum has managed to stay pretty much in the same place for generations unto centuries, which is kind of unheard of human affairs.

I'm not sure why you say this.  Have you walked around Allanak lately?   

[Marshmellow]

What exactly are you, synthesis? I mean, what branch of mad science you do?

FTFY

You know, I had to back up and find the post quoted and re-read it carefully.  I could have sworn that that's what spicemustflow said in the first place.

[Dan]

Most 100% definately a part of Allanak. Whether some few believe it not to be every so often. They are suffered to live.

[Armaddict]

Yes.  Allanak.  It is not a sovereign state, nor is it separate, nor is it self sufficient.  It is a quarter of the city that was abandoned to lawlessness, but still kept intact with the city.  There have been times where it was walled off, but such always fades rather quickly.

[The Archbishop]

Yeah it definitely is part of Allanak, it's just a medieval ghetto. Codedly tons of people live in the rinth, most of the city's laborers live in the rinth.
It's an oppressed society where not everyone can't afford to live in the commons. Rinther pc's just automatically are assumed to be criminal dirtbags.
Just like most people who don't live in the ghetto would avoid going there cause they don't wanna be in the most crime oriented place.
Rinthers get picked on, just like a suspicious guy dressed like a thug would get picked on by police wandering around in white suburbia.
But hey a lot of the time people are products of they're enviroment so most people are gonna think any rinther is up to no good.

[jriley]

Yeah it definitely is part of Allanak, it's just a medieval ghetto. Codedly tons of people live in the rinth, most of the city's laborers live in the rinth.
It's an oppressed society where not everyone can't afford to live in the commons. Rinther pc's just automatically are assumed to be criminal dirtbags.
Just like most people who don't live in the ghetto would avoid going there cause they don't wanna be in the most crime oriented place.
Rinthers get picked on, just like a suspicious guy dressed like a thug would get picked on by police wandering around in white suburbia.
But hey a lot of the time people are products of they're enviroment so most people are gonna think any rinther is up to no good.

Your post is good, and the logic solid.

There is a point that I disagree with.  I disagree that there is a criminal stigma associated with being from the Labyrinth.  I think this is falsely played by most PCs.

Here's why. 

Imagine a day in Allanak, the Labyrinth in particular.  The sun rises.  The elderly and the unemployed have already been awake for a few hours.  You're living in a single room apartment with seventeen other people.  The unemployed and the elderly serve breakfast.

Most of you have jobs.  You struggle to stretch out, and to wash yourself as best you can with what little water there is to share. 

You have to wake up early.  You have to hurry to be at work at the same time as the (more fortunate) people who live closer to the farms.  A majority of the people you live with work on a farm.  A minority work in transport or logistics. 

Work is difficult, obviously.  Fully half of the players of this game have probably never held a job as difficult as the grueling brute labor associated with Allanaki farm work or the Allanaki construction industry.  You don't have one of the better farm jobs.  You're not a wagon driver.  You're not an animal breeder.  You aren't the cook.  You're the heavy lifting. 

You probably spend a good twenty percent of your time out of work due to the vagaries of the farm industry.  You probably spend a good twenty percent of your time out of work due to injury and the diseases associated with malnutrition.

People think that crime is bad in the Labyrinth, but crime is hardly a problem.  Disease is the real killer.  After work, you hurry home to get home with the crowd and make it in before dark.  After dark, the gangsters get a bit bolder. 

Your money doesn't go very far.  Contrary to popular belief, you've never spent a night in an alley.  Rent is not expensive in the Labyrinth.  A dirty, single room apartment goes for only about a hundred coins a month, and even then it's split about twelve ways with the other people you live with. 

Most of your money goes to food.  Food for yourself.  Food for one of your surviving elders.  Food for two of your children.  The other two children come to work with you and are self-supporting.  Food for your sick brother. 

Some of your money goes to repaying back debt from all of your time unemployed.  Some of your money goes to hiring an advocate to try to spring your cousin out of the slammer.  He claims that he's innocent and you'd really like to believe him. 

More money than you'd care to spend goes to paying for protection from local gangs.  A bit goes to bribes to the people who hook you up with jobs, etc. 

My point is that you pass through the commons pretty much every day, so most Allanaki are pretty used to seeing Labyrinthers.  Also, I suspect that about 30% of Allanaki live in the Labyrinth at one point in their life or other.  When fortunes improve, your family moves out of the Labyrinth.  When fortunes decline, your family moves into the Labyrinth.  So, do people assume that you're a criminal?  I doubt it.  Maybe some of the really "white-bread" people from the upper class, or upper-middle class, who are really insulated from commoners think that everyone from the Labyrinth is a criminal.   
Probably visitors to Allanak probably hear a lot of horror stories about the Labyrinth and overestimate the level of criminality that takes place there. 

I think that the more probable stigma associated with living in the Labyrinth is that you're a credit risk, or a bit undependable, or probably considered to be lazy or of questionable hygienic practices.