How do we Fix Burglary?

[jhunter]

The only thing that I think is broken is that there aren't enough places that can codedly be broken into by burglars that don't belong to pcs. I think that there should be a shit ton more locations, some of them inhabited by different npcs, at different times, with their own different schedules, etc. Maybe even, on occasion, the place might currently be inhabited by a veteran soldier that can and will whoop the ass of anyone that it spots that doesn't belong inside their place. Make them reset at random times, reboots, etc. Each location would randomly contain a different set each time. Something along the lines of what someone else already suggested. It's mostly, as someone else said, a problem with the burglars to potential victims (being solely pcs) ratio.

[Lizzie]

Actually, I'm guessing that every noble estate and GMH has locked doors, behind which the GMH family PC or noble family PCs would love to peek. I know when I played one, it made for some fun RP with my lockpicking underlings, giving them the opportunity to practice, plus the opportunity to do something naughty (breaking in to the GMH dead guy's bedroom? I mean c'mon how cool is that?), under a semi-controlled circumstance (wish all "me and my underling wanna see if my dead cousin hid any bodies in the closet, so we're gonna try and bust into the room now" followed by the sudden echo of footsteps coming down the hall...TOTALLY AWESOME).

No, that's not a vague subtle hint on what a burglar might find out IC. It's a blatant right out in the open opportunity. Now, HOW you go about discovering which PC wants to know about their dead cousin's bedroom, or which noble needs to find out what's in that box in the estate's kitchen cabinet, and HOW to decide which noble's gonna let you do that and which one's gonna slice your head off for daring to suggest such a thing..and HOW to decide how to encourage the noble to come up with the idea himself and think that you might be the one to help him out...that's what you gotta find out IC.

But there's your answer on "how to fix burglary." You fix it, by placing your character in a position where he can be useful to people who need his services.

[Qeynos]

That's an absurdly limited venue, and it may not be available at all depending on the time and place. It doesn't fix anything at all, it just suggests something that might be possible twice a year.

[jriley]

Actually, I'm guessing that every noble estate and GMH has locked doors, behind which the GMH family PC or noble family PCs would love to peek. I know when I played one, it made for some fun RP with my lockpicking underlings, giving them the opportunity to practice, plus the opportunity to do something naughty (breaking in to the GMH dead guy's bedroom? I mean c'mon how cool is that?), under a semi-controlled circumstance (wish all "me and my underling wanna see if my dead cousin hid any bodies in the closet, so we're gonna try and bust into the room now" followed by the sudden echo of footsteps coming down the hall...TOTALLY AWESOME).

No, that's not a vague subtle hint on what a burglar might find out IC. It's a blatant right out in the open opportunity. Now, HOW you go about discovering which PC wants to know about their dead cousin's bedroom, or which noble needs to find out what's in that box in the estate's kitchen cabinet, and HOW to decide which noble's gonna let you do that and which one's gonna slice your head off for daring to suggest such a thing..and HOW to decide how to encourage the noble to come up with the idea himself and think that you might be the one to help him out...that's what you gotta find out IC.

But there's your answer on "how to fix burglary." You fix it, by placing your character in a position where he can be useful to people who need his services.

You know?  That's cool.  I'm not sure that it totally fixes burglary but it's certainly a vector for improvement.  

One potential barrier to this are that there are no really good ways to advertise your skills as a burglar.

If you want to raid, you advertise yourself as scout (using a warrior or a ranger) and it's not hard for people to then figure out that a good scout probably has most of the abilities that you need to raid.  From there it's just a matter of chatting with the guy and finding out what his sense of ethics are, who his loyalty is to and if he's got the balls for the job.  Then you find a way to bend him to your will.

If you want to play a hit man, you advertise yourself as a soldier (using an assassin) and then if someone gets the idea that you're able to conduct stealthy military operations, they figure that you might work out for an assassin job.  From there it's just a matter of chatting with the guy and finding out what his sense of ethics are, who his loyalty is to and if he's got the balls for the job.  Then you find a way to bend him to your will.

If you want to play a pick-pocket, you advertise yourself as a street magician (or a bard or a street tough) and then if someone gets the idea that you're able to move your hands faster than the eye can see, they figure you could probably work as a pick-pocket.  From there it's just a matter of chatting with the guy and finding out what his sense of ethics are, who his loyalty is to and if he's got the balls for the job.  Then you find a way to bend him to your will.

But a burglar?  I can't think of any bona fide way to advertise your skills.  It would be nice if the coders could implement a set of legitamate jobs that would require a burglar's touch in order to create a talent pool from which gangsters and crime lords could recruit people for more delicate work.  

I actually have an idea for this -- I think that burglars should have the ability to install (crude yet) effective medieval home security systems (like locks or traps) that PCs could have installed on your apartment.  Then burglars could advertise themselves as a locksmith.  Wealthier and more-powerful PCs could then hire these guys to go to work for them, creating a talent pool of legitamate workers.  This would have the added bonus of deterring new and amateur burglars from fucking with the homes of the rich and powerful, and it would fit the game setting pretty well.  These traps might require a burglars touch in order to be re-armed if they were set off, or maintenance work, ensuring that burglars would periodically have paid work to do.

I've got a few more ideas, but I think that this one has potential.

[Lizzie]

What I recall, is that you get into a clan NOT because you're a burglar with lockpick on your skills list, but because you -also- have exactly the right skills, both coded and social, to be someone's Aide/Assistant. You start there. You work yourself into a position of trust. Once you have earned their trust, and have proven that you are worth having as an Aide/Assistant, you then let them know - quietly, away from prying ears, that there are "other" things you can help them with if they ever have the need.

That's where it all starts. Lockpicking is only one skill among many that a burglar guild is good at. Combining all the OTHER Skills that burglar is good at, makes them the single most useful city-based character in the game. They are to cities what rangers are to the wastes. Lockpicking is not the reason for that. The variety of skills combined is the reason for that. FOcusing solely on lockpicking as the reason to pick a burglar guild, to me, is a ridiculous waste of a guild choice. Yes, it is the "unique" skill that makes a burglar not something else. But if you consider it more a utility skill and less of a primary skill, you'll find playing a burglar MUCH more rewarding, and you'll probably get much more out of actually using the lockpick skill than if you only played your burglar as a lockpicker.

[Armaddict]

That's where it all starts. Lockpicking is only one skill among many that a burglar guild is good at. Combining all the OTHER Skills that burglar is good at, makes them the single most useful city-based character in the game. They are to cities what rangers are to the wastes. Lockpicking is not the reason for that.

This.  The moment you think a burglar -has- to pick locks to make use of the class, you've just wandered from the path where burglars are absolutely amazing.

[jhunter]

That's where it all starts. Lockpicking is only one skill among many that a burglar guild is good at. Combining all the OTHER Skills that burglar is good at, makes them the single most useful city-based character in the game. They are to cities what rangers are to the wastes. Lockpicking is not the reason for that.

This.  The moment you think a burglar -has- to pick locks to make use of the class, you've just wandered from the path where burglars are absolutely amazing.

Yep. I don't think I've ever burglarized anything with the burglar class. I know I've said it before but I use the class to make a sort of all-purpose criminal.

[spawnloser]

Yep. I don't think I've ever burglarized anything with the burglar class. I know I've said it before but I use the class to make a sort of all-purpose criminal.

My ONLY burglar ever, well-branched too actually, was a strange nut.  I only burgled a few places, and the sad thing was that I did it mostly by stealing keys.  I used 'steal' extensively, too.  My character was something of a prankster and that was how I pulled the pranks.  Burglars don't need to burgle.  Seriously.

I agree with the general sentiment that the burglar class is something of a 'jack of all trades criminal' (to borrow another's phrase), but I prefer playing other sorts of criminals since.  Burglary just never sat right with me as a character to play myself.

[jriley]

My ONLY burglar ever, well-branched too actually, was a strange nut.  I only burgled a few places, and the sad thing was that I did it mostly by stealing keys.  I used 'steal' extensively, too.  My character was something of a prankster and that was how I pulled the pranks.  Burglars don't need to burgle.  Seriously.

I agree with the general sentiment that the burglar class is something of a 'jack of all trades criminal' (to borrow another's phrase), but I prefer playing other sorts of criminals since.  Burglary just never sat right with me as a character to play myself.

Yep. I don't think I've ever burglarized anything with the burglar class. I know I've said it before but I use the class to make a sort of all-purpose criminal.

This.  The moment you think a burglar -has- to pick locks to make use of the class, you've just wandered from the path where burglars are absolutely amazing.

What I recall, is that you get into a clan NOT because you're a burglar with lockpick on your skills list, but because you -also- have exactly the right skills, both coded and social, to be someone's Aide/Assistant. You start there....
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This is a good point that you guys have made, four different ways.

I think there is some confusion as to what the actual topic of discussion is, here.  After all, the world burglar means about three different things in our game:

• Role Burglar -- which is a character, usually a PC, that attempts to or specializes in beating the security of residences.
• Class Burglar -- the burglar game class, many of whom  do not work in the burglar role or never actually burglarize anything.
• Burglary -- sneaking into someone's house and stealing their stuff.  Not all PCs who do this are necessisarly trying to play the role of a dedicated burglar, nor are they exclusively of the class burglar

So I think what you guys are saying is that the class burglar is balanced fine for the game.  I'm tempted to agree with this, although it is somewhat of a controvertial statement that other players might not agree with.

What is for sure is that a new player almost definitely has the three terms pretty well jumbled up in his head into one concept. 

The advice that you guys have included with your point is fantastic advice to a senior player who is having trouble finding something fun to do with the burglar class PC.  New players will not only lack the maturity or the skills to implement your advice, they may very well get stuck with the distinction between the three different meanings of the word burglar.  Your advice will not deter them from conducting random theft. 

Personally, I believe that most misbehavior on the part of players is the result of boredom.  And so I think that a new player would be terribly bored if he tried to play the burglar class in the way that you've described. 

This process is frustrated by the fact that there is really no role-models for people who aspire to play a burglar.  After all, when players want to learn warrior role-play, they can join the Byn, and there they will learn to play the ruff-and-tumble style of mercenaries that is the commonest form of warrior on Zalanthas.  After that, they're free to branch out and improvise in a hundred different directions, benefiting from their experience watching half a dozen really well-roleplayed warriors.  Traders, spies, craftsmen, militia and guards all get similar experience from other respective clans.

But this just flat out does not exist for the role burglar.  There is no oral tradition in place handed down through the generations of players on what a good role burglar does, how he acts, and what his methods are.  Any player taking a crack at this is likely to be figuring it out for himself, and working alone on this.  The mentoring system that I proposed has not been adopted. 

On top of this the game is stuck in a cycle whereby people attempting role burglar are always going to be noobs.  Think about it -- pretty much every veteran player who has weighed in on this post has stated or implied that class burglar is much funner if you are not attempting to play role burglar.  Therefore, the only people that are attempting to play role-burglar are players who have not yet developed the maturity that we have come to expect from senior players.  Even on the rare occaisions that they do interact with other players, they will not do so in a way that inspires confidence on the part of the other players.

Junior players are often frustrated when their characters are insta-slagged by spellcasters, junior players are also frustrated when their PC comes home from from a hard day's work to find that their apartment has been looted in the style of an amateur.  This frustration comes because, even though there is a lot of role-play and hard work on the part of the attacker, both the role-play and hard work are invisible to the victim, imparting them with little satisfaction as well as a subconcious suspicion that the offending player is not attempting to role-play and is dishonestly griefing the victim.

For this cycle to change, we must either supply constructive activities for the role-burglar to undertake (such as the locksmith idea, q.v.) or else implement a coaching system whereby junior players are allowed to app characters along-side senior players, for the sole purpose of training and knowledge-transfer.

[Grey Area]

Maybe an easy 'fix', then, would be simply changing the name of the guild from 'burglar' to something more descriptive of the pretty wide range of activities the class can actually take on.

My leader PCs always try to keep at least one burglar on the payroll, but almost never for actual burglary.

[solera]

Maybe an easy 'fix', then, would be simply changing the name of the guild from 'burglar' to something more descriptive of the pretty wide range of activities the class can actually take on.

My leader PCs always try to keep at least one burglar on the payroll, but almost never for actual burglary.

Just curious.  How do your PC's know you have a burglar.  What do they say for their jpb interview?

[Thunkkin]

There are many subtle ways to let your employer know.  It's not that tricky.

My favorite, for any class with a sneaky ability or two, is to take the direct, non-subtle approach and save everyone time.

Example #1:
say (scratching his nose) Well, I like shoveling poop and dusting flat surfaces.

contact potential.employer

psi I can also slit a man's throat faster than he can blink.

cease contact

emote smiles cheerfully.


Example #2:
say (scratching his nose) Well, I like shoveling poop and dusting flat surfaces.

contact potential.employer

psi I've also jimmied a lock or two in my day.  Never had trouble with the law, but if you need help with security or getting something stolen from you back from someone else's apartment, I'm your man.

cease contact

emote smiles cheerfully.


The chances of your potential employer throwing his or hands in the air and shrieking, "Oh my Highlawd, a no good thieving criminal of the lowest saaawt!" are slim.

[KnownUnknown]

Not broken. Plenty, PLENTY of other things to steal from, then just apartments.

I have had burglers pickpocket npc merchants, break into merchant house compounds (that's the real money, and the real rush people) And one day I shall rob some noble house of all it's expensive stuff. When I next roll a burgler. Whenever that might be.

I consider apartments "Practice" That stuff is for noobs

[jriley]

Not broken. Plenty, PLENTY of other things to steal from, then just apartments.

I have had burglers pickpocket npc merchants, break into merchant house compounds (that's the real money, and the real rush people) And one day I shall rob some noble house of all it's expensive stuff. When I next roll a burgler. Whenever that might be.

I consider apartments "Practice" That stuff is for noobs

Probably true.  But now you've touched on something else.

I think that the entire situation would be improved if the staff were just a lil' friendlier about providing Minor RPT support for planned heists.

The two or three times that I've tried to test the waters about this, I've received sarcastic replies that indicated I'd need to fill out about twelve pages of paperwork for the idea even to be considered.  I think that they mean well, but they are showing the classical symptoms of someone who is overworked. 

Anyways, more staff support for this sort of stuff would be a great way to entice mid to senior level burglars away from just spam-robbing apartments out of boredom. 

[Delstro]

Everytime I play in a merchant/noble house as an aide/fancy type, I always expect to be held at knife point and then 'escorted' into my compound. I think I will be forced to fill a bag with some items, then 'escorted' back out. Nothing dangerous, if I play along.

As a merchant type, I have also been hit by burglars.

They ask for an item in the warehouse and I leave them in the office/viewing area. They sneak out, pocket an item or two, and then return and I am never aware.

[Riev]

Everytime I play in a merchant/noble house as an aide/fancy type, I always expect to be held at knife point and then 'escorted' into my compound. I think I will be forced to fill a bag with some items, then 'escorted' back out. Nothing dangerous, if I play along.

In the words of the Immortal Shal.

Way to ruin my plotline, Jerk.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

If you are dragging something that you can not lift off of the ground completely, the code appends the item you are carrying to your walking message and your standing message.

The man walks west, dragging an elven body behind him.

The man stands here
-he is carrying an elven body.

Change this feature to include anything that shows up currently as heavy. So, when you see this:

The man stands here.
-he is carrying a large bag.

...you would also see this...

The man walks west, burdened by a large bag.

Note that he is burdened by it, not dragging it, but the visual and informative information is still conveyed to the casual watcher. It is yet another message to indicate possession of something that realistically, you'd notice even in passing.