Roles that people have trouble with

[Kiara]

This is particularly the case with elves.  There are an awful lot of things people think they can get away with (and do get away with, usually) with respect to their interactions with elf PCs, because they know that most elf PCs only have a virtual tribe, or at most two or three PC tribe-mates.  If every time  you rolled into the Gaj there were 6 humans, 3 elves, and a dwarf instead of 6 humans, 3 dwarves, and an elf...I think it's fairly easy to imagine that this would immediately change the way people do business with elves in a way that would be much more realistically in-line with the docs and the theme of the game.

I'll admit that you make a very, very good point here. I'd love to see elves have a stronger presence in game, especially city elves.

Trouble is, we're dealing with playability. Players will play what they enjoy the most. What sort of slippery slope will we create if we start limiting the number of starting races allowed in game at once?

[Synthesis]

The preferred strategy isn't to impose hard limits on what people can play, it's to modify the desirability of said races so that people choose to play them or not to play them.  I think this could be done fairly easily without straying too far from the docs.

Examples:  give city-elves the desert-elf running ability, but nerf their total stamina points slightly, to reflect their lower endurance.  Allow city-elves to ride on wagons and skimmers.  Add more and diverse coded city-elf tribes that aren't blatantly criminal.  Buff elf wisdom and agility stats so they're more attractive.  Give all city-elves city sneak and hide. Etc. etc.

[jriley]

I think you're being a bit unfair Synthesis. Is the burden on us as players to properly represent the documentation in regards to mere numbers in game, or are we not allowed to play what appeals to us anymore?

I don't think that Synthesis is being unfair.  I think he's saying that "too many people play dwarven characters," and that "most people who play dwarven characters either have a cheesy focus or ignore your their focus."  To that I would add "dwarves don't face enough in-game discrimination."

Basically, he's not telling you how to play your character.  He's pointing out how a lot of people are abusing a certain situation.  Nobody is calling anybody a twink, a cheat, a bad roleplayer, a problem player or anything.  He's setting the bar where awesome is.

Playing an awesome dwarf is tough.  Most people fail at this.  It's not a crime to make mistakes.  But role-play standards here at Armageddon are tough and if you're going to drive what is the Zalanthan equivalent of a tank, you're opening yourself up to polite critique from people if you're doing it wrong.

Let the NPC's represent the stats, the same as professions and guilds.  In pc's you have a mssive over representation of warriors, hunters, thieves, assassins, muggers, raiders, nobles, magickers and every other role that's a little fun and adventerous.

I disagree.  When there were too many magickers running around the game, people complained and this shamed some of the players into toning it down.  When there were too many tribeless d-elf spam-raiders running around (like a few years ago) staff raised the bar for d-elf role-play and this helped.

Some of us are mature enough to have restraint on our own but some of us are not.  If this is not drawn to our attention, we will never learn.  


As an aside, when I was playing my last character here are the stats of the Hunters in the clan:

three humans
one half giant
three dwarves

Please note that the non-humans outnumbered the humans.  Half-giants and dwarves don't really belong in the clans.  Half-giants don't have long-term loyalty to anybody, nor are they diligent workers.  Dwarves won't abandon their focus for long periods of time to do somebody else's work unless they're slaves.  

This is why there are complaints.  Some of the role-play is outright cheezy.  No one is filing player complaints because it's not bad to the point where it's disruptive.  People seem to be stating at several places that nobody wants the nerfbat to come out.  This is a solveable problem.  Discussion and dialog can fix this sort of situation.  

I don't fault people who are new.  I don't fault people who take their second character (or maybe their third or something) and want to go make the big bad dwarven Bynner/Hunter Warrior.  This is cool.  That's a fantastic way to learn the game.  But by the time you've been playing for a year you should either be playing mundane human characters for the most part, or if dwarves are really your thing you should be closely adhering to the role-play docs.  

Edit: Kiara Nobody is calling for a staff bail-out yet.  The problem hasn't gotten that bad.

[Spoon]

Idealistically I'd have city elves have a list of coded tribes in the docs to pick from, like desert elves. I understand that this is highly unlikely in the current incarnation of the game. I don't think city elves are broken as individual PCs, but I do agree with Synthesis that the docs are not very well reflected in the game as far as city elves go. More tribes is the only solution, I think. Elves need a tribe/clan in order to really bring out the role, and yet have very very few options. Clans and tribes also have quiet periods, so it's entirely possible for a city elf to have no coded clan/tribe options.

I think elf wisdom and agility is already high enough to make playing one attractive, it's all the other stuff that makes playing them unattractive to many players. Namely the lack of tribes. In fact, that's the only thing they need really.

Derail: Was there ever a straight answer from the staff about elves and skimmers? I remember looking for the answer a while back and never finding it.

[X-D]

First, celf agi/wis are quite high enough already.

Though I think they should have more coded clans and they should get sneak and hide.

As for HG and dwarves not belonging in clans...Um...HG belong in clans more then any other race.

Being in a clan has pretty much nothing to do with loyalty, and even a HG can understand he needs a job. Not to mention, being the mimics they are, they would follow along with the crowd, Hey, everybody has jobs, I need to have a job. Having a job also means less thinking, Why, because somebody tells you what to do, when to do it, how to do it. Even IRL a HG would be a drill sarges wet dream.

Dwarves would actually wish to join a clan for the same reasons. Hey, if I go work for Tor, I get free food, water, room, I only have to work during these set times, leaving me more time to work on my focus.

As to players reflecting the world in numbers....First, if you really think there are fewer mages now then a year, 2 years, 3 years etc ago, you would be sadly mistakin. Next, it is a game, I don't play humans, not because of stats or percs or skills, but because I am one, and I am playing a fantasy game,  If the PC pop was 100 dwarves, I would not care in the least, it is only a tiny % of a % of the total world pop, and if you remember the game world as a whole you would realize that they do not stand out at all.

[Semper]

I don't know. I'm of the opinion the PC population should at least somewhat mirror the NPC one.

Imagine for example having 5 sorcerers and psionicists IG at once, or seeing equal amounts of gemmed mages and mundanes in a tavern. That would definitely throw me off.

One of the concerns with too many dwarves, I feel, is that players aren't playing them for the right reasons. If you are playing a dwarf, similar to playing the other lesser-represented races in the game, you should be keeping in mind how your roleplay represents your race/guild. Exceptions exists, but when everyone starts being the exception, it ruins the intent and feel of the game.

[X-D]

Comparing apples and dogs.

Races are not the same as classes.

We know roughly what the race ratios are, we do not know the class ratios, and I doubt staff is going to say.

It very well could be that the game world only has a total of 10 sorcs virtual or otherwise at any given time, Or there could be 80,000.

Even as far as races go, when we have 180,000 players and 100,000 of them are dwarves, then I'll agree that things might be a bit off.

Till then, try and keep that virtual world in mind. You might see ten dwarves, but you also see 200 humans, 160 elves,  29 breeds, etc etc etc.

[Kiara]

First, celf agi/wis are quite high enough already.

I was under the impression city elf wisdom was nerfed. I could be wrong.

[X-D]

The only race that I know had a wis agi nerf in the last 8 years is no longer playable.

[Synthesis]

Yes, city-elves got a wisdom nerf a while back.

[Marauder Moe]

I still don't see what the big deal about PC population percentages not being in line with Zalanthas population percentages.

If you see a lot of dwarf PCs, your PC shouldn't be thinking "Wow, there are a lot of dwarfs."  He should be thinking "Wow, I know a lot of dwarfs."

Replace dwarfs with whatever you see fit.  It's a subtle distinction, but I think if you adopt it you'll be happier with the state of the game.

[Akoto]

I still don't see what the big deal about PC population percentages not being in line with Zalanthas population percentages.

If you see a lot of dwarf PCs, your PC shouldn't be thinking "Wow, there are a lot of dwarfs."  He should be thinking "Wow, I know a lot of dwarfs."

Replace dwarfs with whatever you see fit.  It's a subtle distinction, but I think if you adopt it you'll be happier with the state of the game.

I concur. If you're in a tavern and happen to be sitting with three dwarves, remember that you're surrounded by a mass of vNPCs, most probably human. A PC is just one more individual in a much larger crowd, particularly if you live in a major population center.

[Spoon]

First, celf agi/wis are quite high enough already.

I was under the impression city elf wisdom was nerfed. I could be wrong.

Yes, city-elves got a wisdom nerf a while back.

Yes and no. City elves used to have a bug that caused them all to roll Absolutely Incredible. They still have the highest wisdom of all open races and it really shows.

[Kiara]

Yes and no. City elves used to have a bug that caused them all to roll Absolutely Incredible.

Not to my knowledge. Are you sure?

[boog]

I still don't see what the big deal about PC population percentages not being in line with Zalanthas population percentages.

If you see a lot of dwarf PCs, your PC shouldn't be thinking "Wow, there are a lot of dwarfs."  He should be thinking "Wow, I know a lot of dwarfs."

Replace dwarfs with whatever you see fit.  It's a subtle distinction, but I think if you adopt it you'll be happier with the state of the game.

I concur. If you're in a tavern and happen to be sitting with three dwarves, remember that you're surrounded by a mass of vNPCs, most probably human. A PC is just one more individual in a much larger crowd, particularly if you live in a major population center.

QFT. Just because there are a lot of anything doesn't mean the vNPC population doesn't even the documentation out. I think this topic is seriously devolving now: if someone is playing a certain race horrendously, report them. But the documentation is probably purposefully open ended to give people an option. We can't all be as great roleplayers as other people want us to be. Sometimes there is a fine line between exemplary roleplay and enjoyment of a game.

[spicemustflow]

Yes and no. City elves used to have a bug that caused them all to roll Absolutely Incredible.

Not to my knowledge. Are you sure?

How long ago was that?

[Synthesis]

Yes and no. City elves used to have a bug that caused them all to roll Absolutely Incredible.

Not to my knowledge. Are you sure?

How long ago was that?

Here's the link: http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,14076.0.html

A little over 5 years ago.

[Spoon]

Yep. Back then I had an elf who smoked his wisdom right down to good.

[spawnloser]

Spoon, reread the thread posted by Xygax linked above by Synthesis.  It doesn't say there was a bug that made them all roll AI.  There was a typo that made it so that their wisdom really could be higher.  (Imagine it being listed like this:  old c.elf wisdom range=10-30, new c.elf wisdom range=10-20.  Numbers completely made up.)

[Spoon]

I guess I rolled high, whoop! (I got this confused as current elves kept their stats at the time, my PC's being high )

[askaran]

Assassins... Im not smart enough to get them to the level needed to be succesfull.

[KankWhisperer]

I wonder who died and made most of you who decides what good Dwarf RP is. Especially if you say you never play them.

[Synthesis]

[Aaron Goulet]

I have trouble with rogue magickers...  The guild sniffers always get me, no matter what subguild I choose.

[Armaddict]

Ehh...before everything got all hot and heated, and back to the original matter...

I agree.  Half-giants are fucking -hard- to play, particularly when you're trying to avoid moving to one of the two extremes Malifaxis explained.  Though I do disagree with the description of his half-giant, at least as a standard (note:  There should be just as much variance in this as any other race, personalities differ, as well as the things the half-giant -does- have a solid grasp of.  Some may be be a complete ignoramus in conversation but show an utter stroke of brilliance in a sparring ring, not because of their strength, but because they are well practiced in using their size and strength.  It's intuitive, not an active intellect sort of thing, but something that they -have- learned over time with experience.  Others may be remarkably caught up in conversation and actually contribute, so long as they aren't asked to -create- something on the spot in their mind.  But they can repeat things they've heard, they can apply things they've heard, and they can pay attention.  So on and so forth).

As a standard...I think half-giants are -not- useless lumps of flesh who charge and fight and say 'Er, Duhhhhhh.' whenever someone asks a question.  They grasp basic things, and are roughly on the equivalency of a young adult in the Armageddon life.  In other words, they have their instincts, they have their intuition, and can act on it.  The problem comes with multi-tasking and remembering which information is pertinent to what, as in they may learn a lesson, or be given an order, and accidentally extend it to an area where it is no longer applicable.

Yes.  Hardest role in the game, for the sheer amount of brain crunching you have to do to not only think that way, but -remember- to think that way.  It's easy to slip out of it.


Edited to add:

By the way, I say they aren't useless lumps of flesh who charge and fight.  That's true.  But that would likely remain the IC stereotype aside from chosen few who actually had the time and patience to find those little things the giant was good with, and picked up on more easily.  A role I'd love to see for a giant would be one that is around a very subtle character often, and easily picks up on those subtleties, sees the genius of them, and tries to imitate, formulating their own subtlety that is not subtle at all and blatantly obvious.  Ability to perceive but not recreate.  That'd be fun.