Going, going, sandwich?

[spawnloser]

Okay, so years ago Malifaxis and I were instrumental in the first sandwich in Armageddon being implemented.  Soon after everyone in Tuluk was rolling around with other sandwiches, half of them were made with things primarily available in certain clan halls.  Not too very long, in the grand scheme of things, ALL of the sandwiches were removed for being anachronistic.  Lately it was suggested to me that sandwiches are in game again.

Personally, I was disappointed when sandwiches were pulled.  After a while, I came to agree with the decision.  I would prefer it had stayed that way, actually.  Now I'm just a little irritated that the early sandwiches were removed, the ones that I was party to, with the reason being something that should apply still now... but we've still got other, new sandwiches.

Thoughts?

[Nyr]

If you see a sandwich, typo it.  It should not be in-game, it is anachronistic.

[Xeran Van Houten]

Sandwich... Bad?

[Marauder Moe]

Armageddon is an evolving game.  Immortals come and go, and policies come and go with them.

I kind of agree that sandwiches are a bit of an anachronistic/Western food, though.  Zalanthas tends to have a more Middle-Eastern/African theme, and as such I think portable food would more likely resemble pita pockets, wraps, and kebabs.

[brytta.leofa]

Can we have rat pasties?

[Nyr]

If you see a sandwich, typo it.  It should not be in-game, it is anachronistic.

(Especially now that nobody should be able to craft them or buy them anywhere anymore, as of noon today.  I did some work in the crafting/shops DB and cleared them out of the game, more or less.)

[X-D]

Personally I think the idea that they are anachronistic quite silly.

Sandwiches have been around for hundreds if not thousands of years, in many forms. Pretty much for as long as wheat has been ground to flour to make breads.

Zalanthus has bread, flatbreads, loaves and more, they have meat, they have cheese, spices etc. But they are not capable of putting them together? Huh?

Putting your food inside your bread is a good way to keep it fresh as well as making simpler handling and eating.

Wiping sand and dust off the outside crust of bread is simpler then trying to get it out of the grease on your meat.

anachronistic...silliness.

PS, Sandwich is any food item between two other food items and meant to be held and eaten, even wraps, tacos etc all count as sandwiches.

In fact, with only a tiny bit of research, I can find mentions of such items all the way back to around 9500BC, or, more then 11,000 years ago.

[Nyr]

I kind of agree that sandwiches are a bit of an anachronistic/Western food, though.  Zalanthas tends to have a more Middle-Eastern/African theme, and as such I think portable food would more likely resemble pita pockets, wraps, and kebabs.

Agreed, definitely.  Finding Zalanthan words and cooking styles to emulate those from a Middle-Eastern, African, or tribal theme would be awesome.  The only wraps we have are facewraps, and we don't have tacos either for obvious reasons.

[X-D]

As I said, some of the first instances, 7-10k years ago were meat between TWO pieces of flatbread.

And though, because it was a different time and english did not even exist, it was called something else, it still was in fact a sandwich.

We, on the other hand speak english, not sirihish or allundean or what have you, things must be described  in english, and since we are the ones reading it, it is not in any way anachronistic to use the term sandwich to describe any number of sandwich like items. In fact, the use of words easily understandable by all has in fact been the reason for THOUSANDS of rejected char apps, items and more throughout the history of this game up to present day.

[Marauder Moe]

Well, there's the spicy scrab roll.

There have been a few filled pastries as desert items too (jade cream tarts).

I've seen at least one specialty food served on a stick, but I think that's something that should be much more common (especially now that bread is becoming a rarity).  Rat on a stick, lizard on a stick, mek kebabs, etc.

On a mild tangent, I don't think small insects as food is as common as it should be in Zalanthas.  We're already very used to eating large insects (scrab, beetles), but very seldom do you see smaller ones like (Earthly-sized) tarantulas, roaches, ants, and grasshoppers.

[AmandaGreathouse]

Well, there's the spicy scrab roll.

There have been a few filled pastries as desert items too (jade cream tarts).

I've seen at least one specialty food served on a stick, but I think that's something that should be much more common (especially now that bread is becoming a rarity).  Rat on a stick, lizard on a stick, mek kebabs, etc.

On a mild tangent, I don't think small insects as food is as common as it should be in Zalanthas.  We're already very used to eating large insects (scrab, beetles), but very seldom do you see smaller ones like (Earthly-sized) tarantulas, roaches, ants, and grasshoppers.

From my own personal experience, the opportunity's there to eat all of those things other than perhaps tiny spiders. It's more a question of whether people do or not.

My characters tend to.

[Lizzie]

Yeah I don't see why you had to remove the items Nyr. Why not just rename them? Make up a zalanthanesque word for them. Call them, zimshas. Singular: zimsha. And let the mdesc remain as is, so the reader understands that what his zalanthan character is biting into, is what we here on earth call a sandwich.

[crackerjack]

Did some quick research myself and stole this excerpt:

During the Middle Ages, thick blocks of coarse stale bread called trenchers were used in place of plates. Meats and other foods were piled on top of the bread to be eaten with their fingers and sometimes with the aid of knives. The trenchers, thick and stale, absorbed the juice, the grease, and the sauces. At the end of the meal, one either ate the trencher or, if hunger had been satisfied, tossed the gravy-soaked bread to their dogs or given as alms to less fortunate or poor human. Alms were clothing, food, or money that is given to poor people: In the past, people thought it was their religious duty to give alms to the poor. Trenchers were clearly the forerunner of our open-face sandwiches.

Just one example of an early "sandwich".

[Xeran Van Houten]

<3 Nyr

[Nyr]

I removed the items for consistency with previous staff work done; as spawnloser stated, they were removed for a reason back in the day and have somehow cropped up again since then.  Good for discussion and fixing, sure, but for now, they're not there.

[brytta.leofa]

If delectable, twin-breaded meals were common prior to Earl Montagu, what did they call 'em?

[Marauder Moe]

I don't see why you all are so eager to broaden the definition of "sandwich" in order to stuff the word itself into Zalanthas.

I think all that's inappropriate is meat, cheese, and/or vegetables between two pieces of sliced bread.  Nyr just said that flatbread constructions are fine.

(Most flatbread "sandwiches" would be a single piece rolled or folded in half rather than two separate layered pieces, as that would likely fall apart unless held together by some bonding agent like melted cheese, ala quesadillas.)

[Stacy]

Did some quick research myself and stole this excerpt:

During the Middle Ages, thick blocks of coarse stale bread called trenchers were used in place of plates. Meats and other foods were piled on top of the bread to be eaten with their fingers and sometimes with the aid of knives. The trenchers, thick and stale, absorbed the juice, the grease, and the sauces. At the end of the meal, one either ate the trencher or, if hunger had been satisfied, tossed the gravy-soaked bread to their dogs or given as alms to less fortunate or poor human. Alms were clothing, food, or money that is given to poor people: In the past, people thought it was their religious duty to give alms to the poor. Trenchers were clearly the forerunner of our open-face sandwiches.

Just one example of an early "sandwich".

I want a trencher!

[flurry]

Did some quick research myself and stole this excerpt:

During the Middle Ages, thick blocks of coarse stale bread called trenchers were used in place of plates. Meats and other foods were piled on top of the bread to be eaten with their fingers and sometimes with the aid of knives. The trenchers, thick and stale, absorbed the juice, the grease, and the sauces. At the end of the meal, one either ate the trencher or, if hunger had been satisfied, tossed the gravy-soaked bread to their dogs or given as alms to less fortunate or poor human. Alms were clothing, food, or money that is given to poor people: In the past, people thought it was their religious duty to give alms to the poor. Trenchers were clearly the forerunner of our open-face sandwiches.

Just one example of an early "sandwich".

That's funny; I just recently saw a reference to those in a book, Fool by Christopher Moore.

[Bogre]

more importantly why does zalanthas not have hummus

[Reiteration]

I don't see how a sandwich can be anachronistic. Maybe if it was made from mayo or something, but a sandwich doesn't seem complex enough to be anachronistic.

Anachronistic overrules innovation?

You are holding:
A couple of pieces of mouldy spotted bread
A gooey piece of meat

Think:  "I'll stick two pieces of bread around this gooey stuff, that way I don't have to get my hands all sticky!"
Bam, fucking sandwiches.

[tortall]

As I said, some of the first instances, 7-10k years ago were meat between TWO pieces of flatbread.

And though, because it was a different time and english did not even exist, it was called something else, it still was in fact a sandwich.

We, on the other hand speak english, not sirihish or allundean or what have you, things must be described  in english, and since we are the ones reading it, it is not in any way anachronistic to use the term sandwich to describe any number of sandwich like items. In fact, the use of words easily understandable by all has in fact been the reason for THOUSANDS of rejected char apps, items and more throughout the history of this game up to present day.

This.... Plus, one of my favorite memories involved a sandwich. Back in.... 2001? It was something only made by KAdian NPC cooks. My boss gave one to me, and I assumed my PC didn't know what it was called. She called it "meatbread".


I miss sandwiches, and I don't think we need a different word to reefer to something that we already know a word for.

[Malifaxis]

Redacted.  I was being a dick.

[brytta.leofa]

The problem isn't the food type; it's that it uses a word invented in the 1800s and that we don't find in medievalist geek-lit.  That particular word is too jarring for a lot of us.

[WagonsHo]

The problem isn't the food type; it's that it uses a word invented in the 1800s and that we don't find in medievalist geek-lit.  That particular word is too jarring for a lot of us.

The large majority of words in the game didn't exist in a very recognizable form, if at all, in medievalist geek-lit.  Unless we want to speak like this, "Syððan wæs geworden þæt he ferde þurh þa ceastre and þæt castel," we're going to have to accept that we're modern people using modern language to communicate ideas and mental pictures.