RTW Derail: -armed tag on people with weapons

[RogueGunslinger]

Straw man.


Edit: I say this knowing full well that half of my previous post had straw-men arguments in it.

[X-D]

Not much of a post there...But hey, why don't we get rid of emotes, change ldesc, tdesc, think, say, talk, tell shout, feel and mood? Put in all socials and smileys and become WoW?

Arm has a unigue balance of code backed roleplay, thats why. The code is the GM, it does decide what happens in many cases, usually dealing with the world. You the player get to decide the story and the icing.

But every bit of code you add tips that balance away from player driven and into code driven. Some of us, me at least, feel that balance has already shifted more towards the code side then it should be.

No it's not.

Yes it is

Why do you get to pick and choose which code is more important than the other?

The code does not exist, so that is an easy one.

Why do you get to decide that I can't see your weapon?

Use look

Are you taking it's weight, mass and makeup into account?

Are you taking PC weight, mass makeup into account?

Are you considering the amount of people in the room, both real and virtual, who could potential see your weapon? After all, you may have your back to one player, but what about the other?

The other used Look

Your inventory should only be used for something you are holding in your hands, arms or balancing somehow. It's not a magickal spell that lets items float around you without taking up space in your hands. It's something that needs to be addressed and accounted for.

What does that have to do with an armed tag?

Allowing other players to see things such as weapons will account for this.

Huh, how will that show what is in my inventory, lost me again.

Do you keep items in your inventory in case you are disarmed? How do you roleplay having those weapons in your inventory? Are they in the crook of your arm? Are they tied to an article of clothing that's visible. Do you actively emote this, letting other players know? At the very least, are you using semote?

If you find somebody doing that, report them. Most people keep them sheathed someplace though.

If you don't want this code in game, then I'd like to see other players actively alert others as to what's in their inventory. All too often I see people use their inventory space as a way to hide things from the general public/eye.

I'm still missing how inventory applies to the thread subject.

Not everyone has skill 'peek' after all.

Then it was not readily noticable to your PC.

[Kiara]

Straw man.

No it's not.

Why do you get to pick and choose which code is more important than the other?

Why do you get to decide that I can't see your weapon?

Are you taking it's weight, mass and makeup into account?

Are you considering the amount of people in the room, both real and virtual, who could potential see your weapon? After all, you may have your back to one player, but what about the other?

Your inventory should only be used for something you are holding in your hands, arms or balancing somehow. It's not a magickal spell that lets items float around you without taking up space in your hands. It's something that needs to be addressed and accounted for.

Allowing other players to see things such as weapons will account for this.

Do you keep items in your inventory in case you are disarmed? How do you roleplay having those weapons in your inventory? Are they in the crook of your arm? Are they tied to an article of clothing that's visible. Do you actively emote this, letting other players know? At the very least, are you using semote?

If you don't want this code in game, then I'd like to see other players actively alert others as to what's in their inventory. All too often I see people use their inventory space as a way to hide things from the general public/eye.

Not everyone has skill 'peek' after all.

[Cutthroat]

I think most players that know their PC is visibly armed have the tiny required amount of trust from me to emote that their weapon is visible, and how exactly it is visible (held in front of them? waved over the head?). I think if they're not emoting that they have a longsword in their hand at the Gaj, they must've forgotten it was in their hand or somehow have the right to wield a weapon openly in the Gaj.

This is why I proposed earlier in the thread that, were an idea like this to go in, only the most obvious of weapons should be echoed:

How about if the weapon you're wielding is large enough to show up to others if it's in your inventory, then it shows up like this:

Code Select Expand

The short, hairless dwarf is here.
- she is wielding a two-handed bone greatsword in both hands.

It's safe to say that anything less would be concealable in some way.

Because by then, if you unwield the weapon and stow it in your inventory, then it would show up to people anyway since it's so heavy. Wielding that weapon again shouldn't suddenly hide it.

[Kiara]

That is fair.

[Thunkkin]

>  draw ginormous double-bladed bardiche

You draw a ginormous double-bladed bardiche.

> change ldesc is here, holding a ginormous double-bladed bardiche.

That description is too long.

> change ldesc is here, holding a double-bladed bardiche.

That description is too long.

> chang ldesc holds a double-bladed bardiche.

That description is too long.

A nondescript man has entered the tavern.

> emote As ~nondescript enters, @ smiles vaguely, making sure that ~bardiche is clearly apparent.

A boring woman has entered the tavern.

> emote smiles cheerfully, obviously holding a ~bardiche.

A bland person has entered the tavern.

> emote Once again, @ makes it clear that he's holding a damn bardiche.

------------------------

Do the people who oppose an (armed) tag also oppose longer ldescs?  I know at least one of the most vocal opponents of an (armed) tag also gets uppity when longer ldescs are suggested ...

[Blackisback]

That is fair.

I agree.

[Majikal]

The short, hairless dwarf is here
-he is wielding a big fucking sword in both hands
-he is carrying a large bag
-he is carrying a filthy bag
The massive beast of a half-giant is here
-he is wielding a massive beast of a club
-he is wielding a massive beast of a club
-he is carrying a trunk for some reason
a war beetle is here
-he is carrying a large bag
-he is carrying a couple of filthy, crude hide bags
a glossy, black-shelled inix is here
-he is carrying a plain chest
-he is carrying a couple of large bags

That wouldn't get spammy... at all.

[Blackisback]

@Majikal

Exchange -He is wielding a... with a single -He is armed and you're only adding 2 lines to that exaggerated example.

[RogueGunslinger]

No it's not.

Yes it is, and so is all of this:

Why do you get to pick and choose which code is more important than the other?

Uh, I'm not sure what you're getting at. I wasn't picking or choosing anything. I'm advocating for things to stay the same. Where if you want to know what someone is holding, you have to look at them. It doesn't need to get any more complicated than that.

Why do you get to decide that I can't see your weapon?

Not sure what you're getting at again. I'm not deciding anything. You can still see if I'm armed or not by using the look command...

Are you considering the amount of people in the room, both real and virtual, who could potential see your weapon? After all, you may have your back to one player, but what about the other?

We've been over this. The code will never be able to take into consideration positioning, where your eyes are, and where your hands are. So this is left in the realm of players to decide, and come to consensus on.

Your inventory should only be used for something you are holding in your hands, arms or balancing somehow. It's not a magickal spell that lets items float around you without taking up space in your hands. It's something that needs to be addressed and accounted for.

When did I ever say something to the contrary? This is the definition of a straw man. You're arguing about something I've never even implied, and then making it out as if you're winning the argument, when I'm in complete agreement with you here.

Allowing other players to see things such as weapons will account for this.

So does the look command. As well as, like Cutthroat said. The player. IF someone is wielding something conspicuously it's their responibility to show it in emotes and ldesc. However, if they aren't being conspicuous about it, there's no "concealment" code that can take this into account. So it's left on you, the other player, to "look"

Do you keep items in your inventory in case you are disarmed? How do you roleplay having those weapons in your inventory? Are they in the crook of your arm? Are they tied to an article of clothing that's visible. Do you actively emote this, letting other players know? At the very least, are you using semote?

Where are you getting this idea from? What are you talking about this for? STRAW MAN.

If you don't want this code in game, then I'd like to see other players actively alert others as to what's in their inventory. All too often I see people use their inventory space as a way to hide things from the general public/eye.

Once again; I don't disagree. Another great tool for doing this is Tdesc.

Not everyone has skill 'peek' after all.

Really? Whodathunkit.


Edit: X-D did it faster...

[X-D]

Nope, I advocate having shorter sdescs. Amazing how much easier change ldesc gets when you have even 4 extra chars because you did not go with the gargantuan violet locked man and went instead with the big fat dude

[Thunkkin]

The short, hairless dwarf is here
-he is wielding a big fucking sword in both hands
-he is carrying a large bag
-he is carrying a filthy bag

Or ...

The short, hairless dwarf is here.  (armed)

[Thunkkin]

Nope, I advocate having shorter sdescs. Amazing how much easier change ldesc gets when you have even 4 extra chars because you did not go with the gargantuan violet locked man and went instead with the big fat dude

Let the players decide, eh?

[Blackisback]

Nope, I advocate having shorter sdescs. Amazing how much easier change ldesc gets when you have even 4 extra chars because you did not go with the gargantuan violet locked man and went instead with the big fat dude

Let the players decide, eh?

DON'T TREAD ON ME

[Kiara]

Cognitive dissonance never smelled better.

Why do I get the feeling I'm being talked to like a child by some people? I think I've been fairly composed in this discussion.

[RogueGunslinger]

Condescension is a tool to make people believe you have mental acuity, or at least superior knowledge of the subject.

Edit: Not to confess or anything. Just pointing it out. I was being civil.

[Kiara]

I wasn't necessarily referring to you.

[Malifaxis]

The only way I think this is fair is to apply it to normally etwo-d weapons.  Greatswords, axes, spears of almost all types, etc.  Maybe bows as well.

However, shortswords, daggers, knives, very small rocks, gravy, churches and lead can easily be held in one hand and obfuscated.  We aren't even talking about behind the back.  Simple body posture and grip can conceal a hell of a lot.

Honestly, I don't think this should be done at all.  Even with larger weapons, body posture can conceal them, especially in a crowded room.  Having the weapon leaning up against you puts it easily within reach and use.  You can lean on the weapon, propping your elbow upon it, and remain at a casual stance to conceal intent, if not the weapon.

Having mondo-uber weapon sense seems completely idiotic to me.  Pay attention to your environment.

[AmandaGreathouse]

The only way I think this is fair is to apply it to normally etwo-d weapons.  Greatswords, axes, spears of almost all types, etc.  Maybe bows as well.

However, shortswords, daggers, knives, very small rocks, gravy, churches and lead can easily be held in one hand and obfuscated.  We aren't even talking about behind the back.  Simple body posture and grip can conceal a hell of a lot.

Honestly, I don't think this should be done at all.  Even with larger weapons, body posture can conceal them, especially in a crowded room.  Having the weapon leaning up against you puts it easily within reach and use.  You can lean on the weapon, propping your elbow upon it, and remain at a casual stance to conceal intent, if not the weapon.

Having mondo-uber weapon sense seems completely idiotic to me.  Pay attention to your environment.

Everything that Mailfaxis said.

First the spam is unappealing, second people don't need ANOTHER reason to not ever HAVE to LOOK at a person to glean anything about them, third, I think it's ridiculous, just in general. You mean you don't have to SEE someone to see that they're armed? You can see, in theory, just the back of their head, and yet the dagger in front of them is so obvious you get x-ray vision to see it?

I'm with the 'pay attention to your surroundings' camp. Since there's already 2 different ways to see if someone's armed, having this seems redundant, a pointless time sink, and like nothing but extra spam. I'm sorry, but if you ARE sizing up LITERALLY EVERYONE in a tavern or wherever you go to see if they're armed, it should be conspicuous that you're doing it.

soandso looks at you.
soandso glances your way.

Yup. Seems about right. As it is.

[Thunkkin]

SOLUTION!

New command:  Armed

So, you enter a room with five people in it:
The blah blah man is here
The blah blah woman is here
The blah blah breed is here
The blah blah dwarf is here
The blah blah elf is here

Typing "look X" for all five will take you about 50 times longer than it would take to quickly scan the room and notice who's holding the giant broadsword in his or her hands. 

So, you simply type "armed."  The command checks your 'watch' skill, but it's a fairly low bar to pass.  Perhaps based on weapon weight?  Then the command returns:
The blah blah breed is armed
The blah blah elf is armed

Everyone in the room has a chance, based on their watch skill to notice ...
You notice:  The Thunkkin scans the room quickly, eyes darting back and forth.

Ta da!

[Lizzie]

I like Thunkkin's idea. Part of what determines whether you see if someone is armed, could be the size of the item in comparison to the size of the wielder. So a half-giant holding a greatsword might actually slip. But a dwarf holding the same greatsword would stick out.

[Qzzrbl]

I could get behind Thukkin's idea.

Finally have a use for "watch" other than to catch the occasional hemote.

>_>

[Kiara]

I like Thunkkin's idea.

[flurry]

I like Thunkkin's suggestion too.

Reliance upon "look" is a pretty unsatisfactory solution for something like this. Depending on context, of course, you're probably going to notice someone is armed even if you haven't made a point of direction your attention at them.

I'll add that if your PC is wielding a conspicuous weapon, and is someplace where that would be unusual or unexpected, the burden probably falls upon you to tip people off to that fact with your emotes.

[Potaje]

has it been considered that adding more elements that allow a player to pull away from taking the time to make them selves aware of the environment  and those in it by having such things scream out at you just promotes laziness.

I can not think of any instances where someones description of having a weapon out or not has been an issue, nor has it ever been an issue to look at players.

The way it is mentioned here, it would seem none are taking into account that the area is full of people pc, npc, and vnps, which means that you wish a pc to stand out more in a crowd than they currently do. Which I realizes their is some flaw in my own statement, but if you think about the fact that pcs are not generally holding the weapon head level, the first thing in a crowd you see is a face, then you look and see their gear, if they catch you iterest, otherwise consider some one is blocking your view, or the pac is moving and you are only catching a glimpse.

Is the look command broken, I am just curious why people feel it is to much effort just to look which is code enough, I would think.

if its a case of -I keep forgetting my weapon in my hand and getting in trouble- issue then make your self take the time to stop and inspect your own character. I think things that promote others and oneself to be more aware with out the code making it so you have to, helps to eliminate laziness and help make you Rl more perceptive.