Not so Random thoughts about footpads

[Jingo]

Man, this thread is making me want to roll a rogue magicker who wears footpads, just to blast the guild-sniffers right in the fucking face.

Done it.

[Synthesis]

Meh, I assume everybody is a mage anyway.

Besides, I like thieves and usually leave them be.


Random thought.

I really hope Synth does that...now to start looking for wilderness PCs in footpads.

Naw, in the wilderness you wear camouflage and a bow across your back just for looks.

[AmandaGreathouse]

I love the people that go "Oh Hei, Comfy footware...everybody would like them."

Alright, HA...look, its a desert world of hardship and poverty. You would not wear some soft soled shoes unless your VERY rich or a criminal.


Why, because soft souled shoes would wear out in a few days of use. And you being the broke commoner trying to scrape enough sid for water every day would want something that would last you for a month or more. Which is why almost ALL commoner style footwear is boots of thick leather and sandcloth, Hell, even the lower end stuff is described as "sturdy".

So, if I see somebody that is not a human wearing slippers, toe shoes, soft leather wraps, I don't care what you call it, if it says it has soft comfy soles and they are not a noble, I'm going to assume thief.

This.

If footpads were 'common' for commoners to wear, I would expect to see them on a lot more npcs than they are. As is, the majority are wearing either boots, or incredibly fancy kadian shoes of some sort. Only the rare npc wears footpads, so I'm figuring, only rarely do people wear footpads. Which would make wearing them highly conspicuous if one had a habit of looking at the feet/shoes of others.

[deviant storm]

Meh, I assume everybody is a mage anyway.

Besides, I like thieves and usually leave them be.


Random thought.

I really hope Synth does that...now to start looking for wilderness PCs in footpads.

Naw, in the wilderness you wear camouflage and a bow across your back just for looks.

Don't forget the 'kore gloves. So everyone will think you're a badass.

[Vanth]

The footpad discussion is no longer random.  But before I split it into its own thread, I just need to know:

Are these footpads?

[RogueGunslinger]

Don't have soft enough soles, I bet.

[X-D]

Those are "glossy black tembo hide boots" Of course.

[Qzzrbl]

She looks like she could kick through a person's spine.

._.

[Zargen]

the muscular, coco-skinned woman kicks through you in the stomach and straight through to your spine.


*mantis head*

[jriley]

Secondly, it's a pet-peeve of mine when a pc assumes someone wearing footpads is a sneaky. They are only described as soft-soled sandals or boots. So how does your character assume that they have anything to do with sneaking?

Heh.  I don't think that you understand what footpads are*.  

As gunner suggested, footpads are ninja shoes.  

Basically, they're a pair of sandals with bean-bags strapped to the bottom.  What's the point?  They're useful if you're planning to sneak around the roof or upper stories of somebodies house while they're home in the floors below you but you don't want them to hear you.

As you can imagine, these are a highly niche, highly highly specialized piece of burglary (or assassin) equipment.  Historically they were pretty rare.  At the end of the day, they're not really all that effective.  Think about it.  If you're not pretty good at sneaking around in the first place, people are still going to hear you.  

They carry a few other potential performance disadvantages:
1) They do not provide good foot protection.  That means that if you're discovered, you may end up in a fist fight (knife fight/gunfight) wearing what is essentially a  pair of slippers.  Not recommended.
2) They're somewhat conspicuous.  That means that if you are discovered sneaking around somebodies backyard (fortress/private yacht) it is now that much more difficult to try to explain to people that you are just out for a walk.
3) They're not durable.  That means that if you do need to flee the scene of the crime in a hurry, you risk being chased through the city (desert/ghetto) while wearing a pair of soft slippers.  

If it makes you feel any better, most people would have no fucking idea what the fuck they are.  Safe estimates might include:

50% of burglars have never heard of them
80% of law enforcement have never heard of them
90% of commoners have probably never heard of them

When you see another PC wearing them, it's pretty safe to assume that the player is a noob.  

How should another player react to seeing them?  I usually just ignore the other player, or OOC to let him know that he's fucking up, or else send a note to staff.  But usually I just ignore.  It's part of the ritual that new players go through when they make their first burglar, and then spam-pick the locks of every building in Allanak.  It's part of a larger learning experience.

If you actually were to use them, you wouldn't wear them for a walk around town.  You'd probably slip them on a couple of blocks away from the break-in site, and then ditch them on your way home after the job.  

I know that some people are going to respond to this post by claiming that footpads are really really effective, but ask yourself this:  If footpads were really useful, wouldn't James Bond have worn them while sneaking around?  Modern professional sneaks don't wear footpads.  It's not like MI5 hasn't discovered footpad technology...rather they assign their agents to wear stuff that's a compromise between comfort, durability and protection, or so I'll speculate.  

I'll try to avoid arguing with people on this topic because most players who are going to argue against what I'm saying probably don't have much field experience.  This topic comes up every couple of years or so.

Most players who really want to run around wearing footpads have probably seen too much anime.  At the end of the day, it's just not possible that twenty people could jump onto the roof of my apartment building at night, run across the roof and then jump onto the roof of a neighboring building without waking me up.  Sneaking around is difficult under the best of circumstances and funny little ninja shoes are only so much help.

*Source: law enforcement experience

[Delstro]

Questions:

Are moccasins footpads? (worn by Native Americans)
Are Jika-Tabi footpads?    (invented in the 20th century)
Are Tabi footpads?          (Traditional Japanese footwear, circa 16th century.)
Are padded Buskin footpads? (Worn by the Athenians way back when)
Are Veldskoen footpads? (South African version of a moccasin)
Are Galesh footpads?      (Traditional footwear of Iran)
Are the new five-fingered running shoes footpads?

[Armaddict]

Heh.  I don't think that you understand what footpads are*. 

Despite having it said over and over, I don't think you understand the argument.  No one said footpads weren't nice, sneaky shoes.

[jhunter]

They are distinctive enough that the term "footpad" in RL was coined to also mean thief, due to the obvious nature of the footwear.

This is incorrect. Wikipedia seems to be down right now, but the historical meaning of footpad was a distinction made because they were robbers on foot. As a opposed to gentlemen robbers on horseback.

Until I can find any evidence contrary, I'm going to assume that a footpad-as-footwear is a modern fantasy invention.

While you are correct in one part, I could've sworn I read about it somewhere else besides fiction, I just cannot find it now. "Footpads" used footpads due to the nature of their profession. In either case, I'm still going to always treat it that if I see someone on Arm walking around wearing footpads, someone walking around carrying a lumber axe, a glasshacker, etc. that they actually do the profession they are carrying the tools for. Besides the fact that it's unrealistic in the first place for a someone to be wearing footpads all the time. Seems to me, they would wear normal footwear and then change into their footpads when they are actually on the job. You wouldn't want to wear out your soft and delicate shoes just walking around in them all the time and wear them out rapidly for no reason.

[spawnloser]

Heh.  I don't think that you understand what footpads are*. 

Despite having it said over and over, I don't think you understand the argument.  No one said footpads weren't nice, sneaky shoes.

Despite having just read jriley's post, I don't think you understood the point of what he said, so don't get condescending on him.  He said they ARE conspicuous in a world where people wear boots to keep the sand out and they are not functional for anything beyond sneaking around.  It is NOT advised for people to wear them around everywhere they go for these reasons.

I will add that I think the description in game doesn't describe footpads, actually.  They're describing sandals, not sandals with extra thick soles filled with something to make them softer.  Think platform sandals with, as he said, beanbags for soles.  They didn't just have nice soft leather that was nice and thick and comfy.  They wouldn't be comfortable to walk in.  Stand around in?  Sure, maybe.  But walking?  It'd be like walking on dry sand.  It shifts and moves in there, reducing your stability which increases the effort you must put into movement.

[Jingo]

There are really two problems.

1. Some players assume that they can recognize a piece of footwear as a sneaky shoe at merely a glance. Without being able to inspect this footwear with their own hands.

2. Some players assume that the mere wearing of this footwear is enough to give the offending character the label of "sneak". Either in character or out of character.

Here's a question to consider. If instead of "footpad" we had "soft-leathered boot" or "sleek, furred moccasin" or "supple-soled hide sandal" would anyone be able to justify either of the above? If anyone was wearing these around in real life, would it be justified?

[Lizzie]

My perception of this is from a little to the side of things:

People who are NOT sneaky types, generally do NOT wear footpads. Neither I, nor my characters, would associate them with..desert elves, for example. The vast majority of desert elves don't wear that particular style of shoe. Neither does the average merchant house family member. Or the average templar, or noble, or gemmed vivaduan Oash employee, or Salarr hunter, or Tan Muark, or random lumberjack.

The average person, rich, poor, or inbetween, doesn't normally wear that particular style of shoe. However, experience IC would show, that the average sneaky type does. In fact, it is a favorite of the average sneaky type - whether they're any good at being sneaky or not. If you were to look at every person you see "sneaking" in the city, you'd find a far far higher percentage of them that wear footpads, than you would find the average Chosen Lady wearing them.

For this reason alone..for the reason that most people do -not- wear these shoes, which makes people who DO wear them stand out, I would know, ICly, that either the person is a sneaky type, or trying to be a sneaky type, or pretending to be a sneaky type, or simply doesn't realize that most people who wear them are.

[Nahara]

I've pursued somewhat soft-soled shoes/boots that were not labeled as footpads before. The ones I found looked quite ridiculous in the end, but that's all right. They were a fashion statement!
So yeah, soft-soled things not called footpads do exist. Can be a bit tricky to find, but so is the perfect belt eh?

[Armaddict]

Heh.  I don't think that you understand what footpads are*.  

Despite having it said over and over, I don't think you understand the argument.  No one said footpads weren't nice, sneaky shoes.

Despite having just read jriley's post, I don't think you understood the point of what he said, so don't get condescending on him.  He said they ARE conspicuous in a world where people wear boots to keep the sand out and they are not functional for anything beyond sneaking around.  It is NOT advised for people to wear them around everywhere they go for these reasons.

I will add that I think the description in game doesn't describe footpads, actually.  They're describing sandals, not sandals with extra thick soles filled with something to make them softer.  Think platform sandals with, as he said, beanbags for soles.  They didn't just have nice soft leather that was nice and thick and comfy.  They wouldn't be comfortable to walk in.  Stand around in?  Sure, maybe.  But walking?  It'd be like walking on dry sand.  It shifts and moves in there, reducing your stability which increases the effort you must put into movement.

Uh.  I actually read it quite well.  And what he's doing is reiterating that footpads are sneaky shoes.  And what -I- was reiterating was that they aren't 'sneaky' shoes, they're soft shoes that lower noise and friction with the ground, but would be nearly worthless on rough terrain.  Luckily, that's not something that has to be dealt with a lot in the city streets.  If they kept the same description, and replaced 'slippers' with 'footpads', then people wouldn't jump all over the place, even with the same emphasis on stealth.  As for your law enforcement experience,  I'm certain law-enforcement gets -tons- of training on spotting ninja shoes nowadays, and arrests people wearing them on the spot on suspicion of sneaky activity.

These footpads are made of a dark, but very soft leather, that are worn
   upon the feet, laced up to fit tightly around the mid shin.  They appear to
   offer very little in protection, but they are padded so as to make a minimal
   amount of noise.  
   

I'm not certain I understood your sandals bit, as that isn't even describing sandals.  It's describing tight, padded slippers.  Sure.  Think they're sneaky all you want.  But how about not jumping to conclusions until you actually see them being sneaky, eh?

Every time this thread comes up, I can only imagine one thing to get things feasible for the 'You're being sneaky, I'll treat you as sneaky.'



Man wearing footpads walks in, carefully avoiding a puddle of ale on the floor to walk up to the bar and take a seat.

A man not wearing footpads casts a glance down the bar, looking a man wearing footpads over.

A man not wearing footpads lets his gaze linger on the footpads a man wearing footpads wears, and says under his breath in sirihish:
  "You must be a burglar, assassin, or pickpocket, since you're wearing those shoes."

A man wearing footpads blinks, looking down to a man not wearing footpads and says, in sirihish:
  "What?  Oh.  No, they're cheap and comfortable, and I don't have work."

A man not wearing footpads jumps to his feet and points at a man wearing footpads to say, in sirihish:
   "Liar!  That doesn't make sense, they make you sneak better!  YOU ARE A ROGUE CLASS.  Got my eyes on you!"

A man not wearing footpads turns and leaves with a smug look on his face, and thinks:
  "Caught that fucker.  Heh.  Not expensive and comfortable, what a lame coverup."



Again.  Not saying they don't look sneaky.  But I'm saying the outright conclusion instantly being drawn with such -conviction- is a detriment to play, interaction, and immersion of the game.  I'd hope that cops, or anyone, wouldn't walk around noticing people wearing comfortable shoes and insisting they were for anything other than just what the person felt like wearing.  Now if those footpads are on someone who moves into a room, sidles to the side, and tries to not get noticed?  Or someone threatening to steal all your shit?  Yeah.  Different story.  But not the case when someone is acting completely normal, and just so happens to be wearing a pair.

[jhunter]

If they weren't labeled as "footpads" in the sdesc then my pcs would treat them differently until getting a closer look them. As it is, having footpad in the sdesc tells me that it's obvious even at a casual glance.

[Armaddict]

If they weren't labeled as "footpads" in the sdesc then my pcs would treat them differently until getting a closer look them. As it is, having footpad in the sdesc tells me that it's obvious even at a casual glance.

At this point, I'm actually just being argumentative for the sake of being argumentative, so I'll cut it out.  Thanks for giving me an ear, though.

Essentially, it's things like this that make certain genres of items completely worthless in a game.  Sure, they give a bonus to this or that.  But everyone knows that.  Their characters know it, spot it, and immediately draw conclusions.  And so 'stealth' becomes unattainable, the second you walk in wearing them, even innocuously, everyone has already decided you're a thief.  It's just ignorance of the idea that yes...other people may very well wear them, as I've seen slippers on any number of other characters.  I've seen soft-soled, sneaky boots.  I've seen city camouflage cloaks worn in the open.  I've seen all sorts of these things, yet the simplest...and most non-intrusive, in my opinion...is the one that dooms a stealthy character.  His comfy shoes.  That sneaky fuck.

[Grey Area]

Pretty easy solution: just take the damn things off when you're not 'working.'

My assassins do not habitually wander around in a sinister hooded cloak and footpads. Down at the bar, they dress just like everyone else.

[a strange shadow]

No, GA, let's ignore that easy solution and argue on the GDB for another three pages.

[Jingo]

If they weren't labeled as "footpads" in the sdesc then my pcs would treat them differently until getting a closer look them. As it is, having footpad in the sdesc tells me that it's obvious even at a casual glance.

Bringing out of character pretexts into your character is usually considered poor role play.

Edit: I'm not trying to come off as accusatory, but it's true in most other contexts.

Pretty easy solution: just take the damn things off when you're not 'working.'

My assassins do not habitually wander around in a sinister hooded cloak and footpads. Down at the bar, they dress just like everyone else.

So I should switch my grey leather footpads with their aura of stealthiness for a pair of grey leather slippers without the aura?

Again, It's ridiculous.

[jhunter]

If they weren't labeled as "footpads" in the sdesc then my pcs would treat them differently until getting a closer look them. As it is, having footpad in the sdesc tells me that it's obvious even at a casual glance.

Bringing out of character pretexts into your character is usually considered poor role play.

That's the basis of the entire argument. Whether or not it is IC or OOC. I disagree that it's OOC. That's like saying it's poor rp to assume that because someone is wearing an item described as "climbing boots" that they might actually have them for climbing. Or that it's poor rp for my pc to have the knowledge that said boots are used for climbing. My point is, that by description, it appears the use is intended to be obvious, were it not, they would be called, "spiky-soled boots" and upon closer examination, the idea that they could be good for climbing could be garnered.

I agree with what others said about not wearing them all the time. None of my sneaky types ever have. They had footwear for "all the time everyday use" and then their footpads for when they're on the job. Until the staff takes a stance on it one way or another, I'll continue to have my opposing opinion to yours and you can continue to think that my rp is poor because of it.  *shrugs*

[spawnloser]

If they weren't labeled as "footpads" in the sdesc then my pcs would treat them differently until getting a closer look them. As it is, having footpad in the sdesc tells me that it's obvious even at a casual glance.

Bringing out of character pretexts into your character is usually considered poor role play.

Edit: I'm not trying to come off as accusatory, but it's true in most other contexts.

I have to agree with jhunter.  By what you say, I shouldn't know your character is a man unless I get my hands on your character, strip the clothes off and see the wang.  The sdesc tells you what an item/animal/plant is at a glance because what's in the sdesc are what are the most salient features.  If you don't want people reacting this way, talk to the staff.  If they think footpads should be instantly recognizable, they'll leave the sdesc alone.  If they think footpads shouldn't be, they'll change the sdesc.  It's that easy, simply and the only way this will be solved.

No, GA, let's ignore that easy solution and argue on the GDB for another three pages.

LOL!