Unofficial subguild discussion thread

[Ashes]

<3 you, X-D.

[Semper]

Perhaps post here what changes you are sending in, in general, so there aren't 50 requests regarding subguild seamstress that the staff go through.

[Agent_137]

wasn't disagreeing, blackmagick. Was just putting the facts down.

I actually do agree with you. Because I've heard it said by Imms somewhere that you start at the highest starting level, if main and sub overlap. And for years I assumed that subguild skills had pretty high starting values, like in the apprentice range. I don't think that anymore, I think it may be marginally higher or not higher than the starting level for the main guild. Therefore overlapped skills are wasted skills.

[BlackMagic0]

wasn't disagreeing, blackmagick. Was just putting the facts down.

I actually do agree with you. Because I've heard it said by Imms somewhere that you start at the highest starting level, if main and sub overlap. And for years I assumed that subguild skills had pretty high starting values, like in the apprentice range. I don't think that anymore, I think it may be marginally higher or not higher than the starting level for the main guild. Therefore overlapped skills are wasted skills.

Oh no. Worries. I didn't wanna put words in your mouth though. Soo.. Thanks for the facts!

Also I believe it may depend on the subguild, no? Some may have higher or lower starting levels. I can name a few.... off hand..

[Lizzie]

Yes, I am asking players for help on this.  It is less work for me to collect data from people who know where a problem is rather than scour through it myself.  I have a lot on my plate, but I'd like to help.

Exept Adhira has spoken, and said the Staff has no plans to become more detailed in the subguild help files. So really, players sending in requests for more specific detail ends up being even more of a waste of time, than the occasional player who requests that their subguild be changed due to not realizing that it didn't come with a skill the help file suggested it did.

[Cutthroat]

Yes, I am asking players for help on this.  It is less work for me to collect data from people who know where a problem is rather than scour through it myself.  I have a lot on my plate, but I'd like to help.

Exept Adhira has spoken, and said the Staff has no plans to become more detailed in the subguild help files. So really, players sending in requests for more specific detail ends up being even more of a waste of time, than the occasional player who requests that their subguild be changed due to not realizing that it didn't come with a skill the help file suggested it did.

Right. Except being more detailed =/= correcting errors. Adhira was answering this question:

Is there, NOW, any thought of listing subguild skills in a straight forward manner that is not cryptic so that errors and the need for fixes are gone?

Which, to just go with an obvious example, implies changing this:
Linguists  know the three major humanoid languages: Allundean, Mirukkim, and Sirihish.

Into this:
Linguists get
- Allundean
- Mirukkim
- Sirihish

And listing out the skills of other subguilds in a similar manner.

Adhira said staff would not be interested in that form of clarification. Nyr said that requests would be considered to add to descriptions of subguilds in the manner they're currently written now. I think it's safe to say that still stands.

It's not a waste of time. X-D, please submit what you caught on to so staff can correct anything necessary.

[Nyr]

Yes, that was my interpretation as well.

I have one request for clarifying value/bartering in subguilds. At least one sg doesn't have it mentioned, and another is vague.

[Twilight]

After reading this thread, I am ambivalent on the issue at hand.  Other than the staff really should have more tools on hand.

The fact that staff can't apparently do something like "show skills guild warrior" or "show skills subguild thug" is just completely mind boggling.  I thought that was in the Gamma DIKU codebase, I can't see why anyone would get rid/not expand the functionality if it was as the mud evolved from there.

My experience with a subguild that didn't attach properly, way back, was that skills needed to be added manually anywhere except chargen.  Again, seems weird that the (I assume tiny bit of code, if the skills files for subguilds are in any way organized) tiny bit of code to enable something like 'set pf playerx subguild thug' which would take take away all of playerx's subguild skills after cross referencing to guild skills then add in subguild thug skills wasn't already added.  Hopefully, with Arm2, there will be a more robust coding out of what is possible with imm commands.  While they rarely impact players directly, this current issue seems to be one where it does.

Oh, and it would be really nice if you could change playerfiles directly in Arm2, another issue where code has impacted players (player/imm online at same time to do certain changes).  Pretty sure "set pf" is basic Gamma DIKU as well, although admittedly will not impact descriptions there.

[Nyr]

After reading this thread, I am ambivalent on the issue at hand.  Other than the staff really should have more tools on hand.

The fact that staff can't apparently do something like "show skills guild warrior" or "show skills subguild thug" is just completely mind boggling.  I thought that was in the Gamma DIKU codebase, I can't see why anyone would get rid/not expand the functionality if it was as the mud evolved from there.

My experience with a subguild that didn't attach properly, way back, was that skills needed to be added manually anywhere except chargen.  Again, seems weird that the (I assume tiny bit of code, if the skills files for subguilds are in any way organized) tiny bit of code to enable something like 'set pf playerx subguild thug' which would take take away all of playerx's subguild skills after cross referencing to guild skills then add in subguild thug skills wasn't already added.  Hopefully, with Arm2, there will be a more robust coding out of what is possible with imm commands.  While they rarely impact players directly, this current issue seems to be one where it does.

Oh, and it would be really nice if you could change playerfiles directly in Arm2, another issue where code has impacted players (player/imm online at same time to do certain changes).  Pretty sure "set pf" is basic Gamma DIKU as well, although admittedly will not impact descriptions there.

I'll clarify a few things then.

We can see all of the skills each guild and subguild has.  We can also read the helpfiles and, with time, figure out what doesn't add up.  We (I) do not have the time to do this right now.  In lieu of waiting until I do have time to devote to this, I'm asking for other people who have hands-on experience from the player side with this issue to volunteer their assistance.

Also, subguilds do codedly attach properly; I have not seen evidence of an issue in which the code is working improperly and people are getting the wrong subguild by a bug.  The issue we are seeing is a marked increase in people asking us to change their subguild because they picked the wrong one (did not check app before submission), or because they picked a subguild and decided it didn't have the skills they wanted.

We do not have the resources to keep doing these because it requires an admin+ staffer to be online at the same time as the player in question.  We can change values in pfiles directly, but this requires a coder with ginka access.  At this point, that's a lot of work to correct an issue that can be resolved on the front end:  double check your app before submitting it, and read the helpfiles on subguilds if you aren't sure about your subguild choices.  If the subguild has a skill that is not listed in the helpfile, it should be there, and that's where we (I) are (am) asking for help.

[Barzalene]

I've always felt that apart from the mysteries of magick, I wouldn't feel at all like I was robbed of discovery if information were more accessible. In fact, I think that ease of gathering information that led me to informed choices would enhance my experience. I understand that the staff, and much of the player base does not agree, and I respect that. I'm not so much lobbying for a change and throwing the idea out there.

[Twilight]

Thank you for the reply.

I'll clarify a few things then.

We can see all of the skills each guild and subguild has.  We can also read the helpfiles and, with time, figure out what doesn't add up.  We (I) do not have the time to do this right now.  In lieu of waiting until I do have time to devote to this, I'm asking for other people who have hands-on experience from the player side with this issue to volunteer their assistance.

Admittedly, I made an assumption here, based on how long it would take me to do something similiar on the other Gamma DIKU mud out there, which is what I am familiar with on an admin side.  If it works as I referenced, and you have a skill list instantly, perhaps it would work best to have an inexperienced player send in what their interpretation of the subguild helpfiles are and cross reference?

Also, subguilds do codedly attach properly; I have not seen evidence of an issue in which the code is working improperly and people are getting the wrong subguild by a bug.  The issue we are seeing is a marked increase in people asking us to change their subguild because they picked the wrong one (did not check app before submission), or because they picked a subguild and decided it didn't have the skills they wanted.

Did not realize there was in increase in this, was only referencing my only experience with subguild being reset was back within a year of introduction, when the bard subguild did not sometimes appropriately attach in chargen.

We do not have the resources to keep doing these because it requires an admin+ staffer to be online at the same time as the player in question.  We can change values in pfiles directly, but this requires a coder with ginka access.  At this point, that's a lot of work to correct an issue that can be resolved on the front end:  double check your app before submitting it, and read the helpfiles on subguilds if you aren't sure about your subguild choices.  If the subguild has a skill that is not listed in the helpfile, it should be there, and that's where we (I) are (am) asking for help.

Well, my suggestion here went beyond the current issue.  My experience with a Gamma derivative is that you can directly set values in the pfile as an admin, in game, rather than need a coder for it, but for certain things Arm definately is not this way.  My suggestion was for Arm2 to have the ability for admin to set pfile values directly from the game, so that we can get rid of the necessity of having an admin+ and the player both in the game at the same time (or needing a coder for it).  As this is an issue in the current game that impacts both imms and players.

[Lizzie]

I have an actual, constructive, potentially useful and welcome suggestion regarding all of this. If the players who respond (and any staff who respond) feel it's worthwhile, I'll submit it as a "request tool" question or whatever other hoops through which we're supposed to jump.

You know how they changed the stat change and stat restore. And they changed the autorezz so you can't rezz after you've had 1 karma point.

Well how about implementing something similar with the subguilds.

You pick your guild/subguild, it gets approved, you show up in the hall of kings. WHILE you are in the Hall of Kings, you are prompted to type SKILLS to see all your skills. While you are in the Hall of kings, you can type SUBGUILD and it'll list which of those skills currently on your skills list are your subguild skills (overlapping skills would still show up so if you have merchant/bard, listen would still show up since it's on both).

If you feel you made a mistake, you can change your subguild, ONCE. While you're in the hall of kings. It would force you out of the game, change your pfile, and when you log back in again you're good to go, back in the Hall of Kings with your changed subguild.

And you can do this once, per character, ONLY in the hall of kings, and only until you have accumulated more than 1 point of karma. After that you can't do it anymore because at that point it's assumed that you have a general idea of how to interpret the help files, which may or may not be vague, unclear, and in some cases unintentionally deceptive.

[Old Kank]

Give each character an allowance of "request points," and use them for any number of typical player requests.

Make players choose between changing their sub guild and changing their character's description or the implementation of that master craft item, and I bet a lot of players would decide that not having the value skill actually doesn't destroy their character concept.

[gfair]

Perhaps we can incorporate a quick summary of the Guild / Subguild in the character summary screen to review before we submit the application?

[Majikal]

Perhaps we can incorporate a quick summary of the Guild / Subguild in the character summary screen to review before we submit the application?

If any methods were allowed into the game in which you could review skills of guild and subguild before character approval, I believe it to be ridiculous to not simply allow those skills to be seen during character creations. I can understand keeping guild skills vague and misleading, but subguilds? Knowing that subguild x gives you listen, sleight of hand, value and kickassery hardly breaks the game or causes ANY Issues that I can see. Subguild sniffing? 

Code Select Expand


Choose a Sub Guild for your character:
a) Sissy
b) Badass
>B
You have chosen Badass, this comes with:
Bash
Kick
Disarm
Pwnage

Are you sure this is the Sub Guild you wish for your character, y/n?
>Y


To take it one step further, I think it would be helpful to even show the skill level it allows (apprentice, journeyman etc).

[X-D]

There, I submitted on all the ones that I see problems with.

[The Archbishop]

Why does this thread exsist?

[Lizzie]

Why does this thread exsist?

Summary:

Many of the subguild descriptions in the help files have been vague, or incorrect, or misleading. Since not everyone knows what they're -supposed- to be, and the staff has always said we should discover what we get in game and that it was ok for the help file to be vague, we just mostly lived with it. If we got into the game and discovered it that the subguild was REALLY wrong - as in, the desc implied weaponmaking, and you create a PC who tries to get into Salarr as a weaponsmith but who's really a wanna-be assassin (with rebel subguild), he'd be totally fucked and have to completely re-write his goals. OR, he could e-mail the staff and ask for a subguild change. No big deal, problem solved. If it was a matter of a typo during chargen, they meant to type f but typged g by mistake..was in such a hurry to get their app approved that they didn't double-check to make sure everything was perfect.. not too bad a deal - just e-mail the staff and get it changed within an hour of logging in and realizing you screwed up.

Now, we are no longer allowed to ask for subguild changes once our character has been approved. For the people who simply made a mistake out of inattention, it's an inconvenience, but it's their own doing. But the people who didn't understand, or misinterpreted vague or incorrect or deceptive help files, this is causing a lot of dissention. Why should they have to "suck it up" and play through a mistake that is the result of the staff's inattention to their own help files?

[jhunter]

I've never ended up with an incorrect subguild. I guess this must be a problem for some people since this thread exists but really, I don't see how people are unable to deal with it. It's not character-breaking. So you picked one that you thought gave you access to -all- weaponcrafting skills (when it's a secondary ability anyway) and only ended up being able to make one type? You can't adjust to have your pc almost exactly the same as you envisioned except they specialize in making only a single weapon type? Alright then, I agree that they should be left vague, but I suppose fix some of the parts that may be misleading to some people. Unless they are completely listed out for people, there's always going to be somebody that assumes more than is said and ends up disappointed and complaining.

[janeshephard]

Why does this thread exsist?

There were two questions posted to the Ask The Staff forum so I thought it best to just start a thread. That's why this thread exists.

[Lizzie]

JHunter, I'm looking at this from a new player's perspective. Here are some examples of things that are so vague, that they can very easily mislead a NEW player:

"can get away in a hurry if confronted."

I'm a new player. I just finished reading the racial files, and moving onto subguilds. I know, from my reading, that desert elves can run very fast. I see that in a subguild help file and think - oh I guess that means this subguild can run even faster than a desert elf. Awesome. My character is gonna be a desert elf hunter so this should be perfect!

OOOPS - no it means this subguild comes with the FLEE skill. Which, new player hasn't gotten to yet, so he doesn't even know the flee skill exists, because he had no interest in looking for it, because he's not concerned with learning how to run away after he's already become engaged in combat. Hurry away if confronted does not mean run away from active combat.

There are a few subguilds that have this misleading wording with regards to the flee skill.

Here's another one - a pretty significant one:

Bards:
   Bards are talented with musical ability, and well versed in the use of
various instruments. They can earn a living performing tricks involving
small sleights of hand, or by repeating and embellishing stories they have
overheard.  Their ability to pick up languages will also aid in the
diversity of their story-telling.

New player thinks - WOAH Armageddon has coded musical instrument playing, awesome! And they get special commands to make their stories sound better than the guy at the other end of the bar! I SO WANT THIS.

Woops. There is no such coded ability in Arm, it doesn't exist. And there are no such special commands - the help file is referring to the listen skill, which a new player might, or might not have gotten to yet during his examination of the character generation process. And picking up languages - does that mean he gets a boost to listen? Even I'm not sure what that means, and I've been playing a few years. Does that mean all languages are at the "just about to branch but not on the skills list YET" level, hidding in a character's skillset until they hear the language spoken for the first time? Because, if I like the auxilliary skills that come with bard, but I really need to know mirrukim fairly early on in my character's existence as a PC, then I might be better off picking linguist, even though my character will have absolutely no interest or need to learn quickly, any of the other languages.

But because this file is so vague, if I was a new player, I would have absolutely no idea which to pick, and no general understanding of the game from which to compare. No, I would have to go to a helper, and have the helper spell it out for me OOCly. I'd have to jump through hoops, just to find out if one damned skill that I want my character to have, would be quickly achieved by picking one subguild, because I don't need any of the skills that comes with the other subguild.

So the result of this change, without specifying CLEARLY in the help files, is this:

Players who already know what comes with what, will only have mistakes, if they typoed and weren't paying attention. Otherwise, they will always have exactly what they wanted.

Players who have a general idea, might be disappointed, but sucks to be them, there's nothing they can do about it if it wasn't what they thought it was.

Players who are brand new to the game will be clueless, more likely than not guess wrong, find out they're wrong, find out they're not allowed to change it, get frustrated, and find a game where they can have a more educated idea of what their character is capable of, before showing up in the game and being stuck with arbitrary and incorrect choices.

Among all three groups, there will be a LOT more OOC passing of information. I imagine there will soon be lists of subguilds and their skills (if there aren't already) being sent via e-mail, over IM, and discussed in the chat rooms, just to avoid having to be the moron who actually used the help files exclusively when attempting to figure out what subguild they want their character to have.

[RogueGunslinger]

MY question is: Why should the sub guild or main guild skills be kept vague? What does this add the the game?

[jhunter]

MY question is: Why should the sub guild or main guild skills be kept vague? What does this add the the game?

Personally, I would prefer that our playerbase be made up of people who are willing to read between the lines and think for themselves rather than have it all handed to them. I think that's part of the reason why our playerbase is made up of so many talented roleplayers. I believe it would -contribute- to a decline in the quality of our playerbase.

[RogueGunslinger]

I think you mean incline. But if your only reasoning is to keep players who have the ability to think about what skills might would come with a guild, and weed out the ones who can't. Then sorry, I completely disagree. This is our character. We should know what they're going to be capable of when we make them. And we shouldn't be forcing cruel annoyances like such on new players and players who simply haven't payed attention to what guilds get what skills, in order to make them leave the game so you can have it full of "think for themselfers".



Edit: Whew... that was a confusing mouthful.

[janeshephard]

Personally, I would prefer that our playerbase be made up of people who are willing to read between the lines and think for themselves rather than have it all handed to them. I think that's part of the reason why our playerbase is made up of so many talented roleplayers. I believe it would -contribute- to a decline in the quality of our playerbase.

Yes, clearly by making the game more antisocial you contribute to a better player base.