The Place of Elved Citizens

[brytta.leofa]

Does the typical elf in Allanak or Tuluk believe that a noble or templar is intrinsically better than him?
Does he feel patriotic sentiment for the city?
Can a city elf, to put things crudely, have what we'd call a "lawful" alignment?  (Where the law is that of the city, not a tribal rule.)

[jstorrie]

I wouldn't be surprised if there are a large number of Tuluki elves who have been inspired into Sun King-devotion, but that's, uh, complicated.

I'd be interested to hear whether or not people think Tek-worshipping elves exist, though.

[Rhyden]

I'd be interested to hear whether or not people think Tek-worshipping elves exist, though.

Worship? Maybe.

There's probably more Tek-fearing ones than anything.

[Is Friday]

Does the typical elf in Allanak or Tuluk believe that a noble or templar is intrinsically better than him?
Does he feel patriotic sentiment for the city?
Can a city elf, to put things crudely, have what we'd call a "lawful" alignment?  (Where the law is that of the city, not a tribal rule.)

ALLANAK:
I can't see a typical elf in 'nak having too much patriotism. The 'system' or 'the man' in nak beats down the minorities (elf, rinthi, mutant, etc.) in a way that would racially bond them together against the power. That is not to say that any elf trusts another elf--but I wouldn't doubt for a second that each elf sees a militia soldier, templar, or noble as a shared enemy.

As for 'lawful alignment'.... I see this quite often as a matter of fact, but add 'evil' to the end of it--if you want to reference D&D. So long as the law can be used to their own or their party's gain, they love the law. I've seen a lot of elves work with the law to get what they want. With that being said, they always went back to 'fighting the power' once their goals didn't align with the powers that be.

TULUK:
Too fucking complicated.

[Synthesis]

I would find it very odd to find city-elves who hadn't managed to adapt to the conditions of city living.

E.g. city-elves don't play "poke the templar" any more than desert-elves play "poke the mekillot."

[Spoon]

I don't think an elf would ever think anyone was intrinsically better then them, it just goes against the whole pride thing. Elves may appear to have loyalties/care about things, but in the grand pyramid scheme of things the tribe will always be in the top spot. I wouldn't think elves would worship either king for anything other than dishonest reasons. Since we're going D&D, lawful good would be out of the picture as elves are too selective of those they care about.

[Cutthroat]

I think elves would consider nobles and templars to be the best of all humans, and they should understand that they're in power, but a city elf may feel they are better than him, or at least be able to fake it.

When it comes to patriotism... elves don't have a lot of options in either city-state to express their patriotism openly through actions. Considering they are city elves and depend on the city for their livelihood, chances are they like the fact that a powerful person established a city very much.

As for the lawful alignment bit, absolutely. There are many legal ways to steal from the roundears.

[Saellyn]

I think elves would consider nobles and templars to be the best of all humans, and they should understand that they're in power, but a city elf may feel they are better than him, or at least be able to fake it.

When it comes to patriotism... elves don't have a lot of options in either city-state to express their patriotism openly through actions. Considering they are city elves and depend on the city for their livelihood, chances are they like the fact that a powerful person established a city very much.

As for the lawful alignment bit, absolutely. There are many legal ways to steal from the roundears.

Absolutely true. The most prominent being "don't get caught" <3

[Pantoufle]

The way I perceive elves is such that my character would raise his eyebrows in suspicion if an elf began acting patriotic. It just seems entirely un-elven to me.

Elves probably see the city as a source of shelter. They're there to survive and if they've been there for ten generations or one, they'll just as easily pack their belongings and move on to greener pastures if any become available. They are neither permitted to be soldiers/noble house aides/etc. nor do they long to become one. Tribeless loner elves notwithstanding, they prefer to live amongst their kind and live according to elven tradition (i.e., practicing thievery). For this reason, I imagine the vast majority have little to no interest in waving flags and calling themselves a patriot. A patriot lives for his nation, puts his nation first. Elves put their tribe first - an entire civilization is far too large to be viewed as a tested, trusted tribe. They'll bow down because they have to, but Muk Utep and Tektolnes are not a tested, trusted member of any elf's tribe and therefore would be viewed as such. Fear, not nationalistic fervor, drives them to respect their betters.

I've always paralleled city elves with the Roma people, or gypsies, of Eastern Europe. (I realize the Tan Muark are called gypsies in game but having lived in the country with the highest population of Roma I can say with some experience the similarity between real world gypsies and Tan Muark ends with the name.) The Roma interact with the "nationals" but they are very clearly separate from them, living on the streets, with their own way of life and even their own language. The locals don't view them as locals even if most were born there. Moreover, they do not view themselves as locals either. You will be hard pressed to hear a gypsy living in the Czech Republic or Hungary, for example, say "I am a Czech" or "I am a Hungarian". They live there, they survive. They have no interest in the country's politics. The descendants of nomads, they would probably just as likely move to another city or country given half the chance and set up shop there. And this is how I imagine the city elf to view their home. Their tribe is where their heart is, the ground/pavement beneath their feet is just a place to steal/survive.

As for being lawful, elves are of tribal origin. Humans may create civilizations, but elves never would. They live more according to rules (the rules of their tribe) than something more concrete like laws. Besides, laws are created by outsiders, so why should they respect them? So while an elf may possibly be good at heart, I don't see them as understanding or respecting laws. Not to mention they are all thieves by nature and even though there are various forms of thievery, not all which include the taking of others' possessions, they still perceive deception as an artform. This kind of lifestyle would make it difficult to have a deep respect for laws.

[Spoon]

There's some huge holes in the documentation for elven roleplay, and I think Pantoufle just filled one.

[Jingo]

I think we are in need of a Rindin post.

Edit for added content:

It's really up to the elf. Or the tribe of the elf. It doesn't say anything in the documentation about an elf's relationship to the cities.

I'm inclined to say that it's possible but rare for a nakki elf to actually be a true patriot. They have to deal with the elven persona, which gives them an us vs them perspective. This probably doesn't make them lovers of the state until they can find a way to internalize Tektolnes or the city into themselves somehow.

That said, desert elves worship and believe all sorts of crazy things. Why wouldn't an elf worship almighty Tek?

[jstorrie]

Some elves might see Tek as the greatest thief of all, for he's conned hundreds of thousands of people out of their freedom. Same goes for Mukky.

[Jdr]

Yes but Tek's also human (reputedly). Surely no human would be deserving of recognition for their thieving skills, even if He is a living God.

[mattrious]

The way I perceive elves is such that my character would raise his eyebrows in suspicion if an elf began acting patriotic. It just seems entirely un-elven to me.

Elves probably see the city as a source of shelter. They're there to survive and if they've been there for ten generations or one, they'll just as easily pack their belongings and move on to greener pastures if any become available. They are neither permitted to be soldiers/noble house aides/etc. nor do they long to become one. Tribeless loner elves notwithstanding, they prefer to live amongst their kind and live according to elven tradition (i.e., practicing thievery). For this reason, I imagine the vast majority have little to no interest in waving flags and calling themselves a patriot. A patriot lives for his nation, puts his nation first. Elves put their tribe first - an entire civilization is far too large to be viewed as a tested, trusted tribe. They'll bow down because they have to, but Muk Utep and Tektolnes are not a tested, trusted member of any elf's tribe and therefore would be viewed as such. Fear, not nationalistic fervor, drives them to respect their betters.

I've always paralleled city elves with the Roma people, or gypsies, of Eastern Europe. (I realize the Tan Muark are called gypsies in game but having lived in the country with the highest population of Roma I can say with some experience the similarity between real world gypsies and Tan Muark ends with the name.) The Roma interact with the "nationals" but they are very clearly separate from them, living on the streets, with their own way of life and even their own language. The locals don't view them as locals even if most were born there. Moreover, they do not view themselves as locals either. You will be hard pressed to hear a gypsy living in the Czech Republic or Hungary, for example, say "I am a Czech" or "I am a Hungarian". They live there, they survive. They have no interest in the country's politics. The descendants of nomads, they would probably just as likely move to another city or country given half the chance and set up shop there. And this is how I imagine the city elf to view their home. Their tribe is where their heart is, the ground/pavement beneath their feet is just a place to steal/survive.

As for being lawful, elves are of tribal origin. Humans may create civilizations, but elves never would. They live more according to rules (the rules of their tribe) than something more concrete like laws. Besides, laws are created by outsiders, so why should they respect them? So while an elf may possibly be good at heart, I don't see them as understanding or respecting laws. Not to mention they are all thieves by nature and even though there are various forms of thievery, not all which include the taking of others' possessions, they still perceive deception as an artform. This kind of lifestyle would make it difficult to have a deep respect for laws.

Well put.

[RogueGunslinger]

Most of my characters who've been elved tend to go to the 'rinth, with the other poor people.