Find out IC...

[Old Kank]

I disagree with the staff's response in another thread because, while it may be true, it seems like an unhelpful response to a fair question and it got me to wondering:  When is, "Find out IC" an appropriate response?

It seems to me that it should only be used to protect IC secrets and to prevent players from having a distinct advantage that others may not have.  We're provided with tons of general info about the game, but some of it is frequently declared off limits (by staff, but more frequently by players) and to me that seems kind of overzealous.

If a question pertains to IC information but in general it can really only be used to help a player's role-playing, is it really harmful to answer the question?

[Aaron Goulet]

I wasn't going to say anything, but I was pondering this as well what I saw that response in Ask the Staff.  I had always figured that common IC knowledge should be common OOC knowledge, as well.

A lot of times I find myself in situations where my PC should know something, but I do not, and it leads to a certain amount of frustration. I'm sure that newbies get this feeling even more so than I.

[jstorrie]

Often people say 'find out IC' when what they mean is 'find out IG'.

[hyzhenhok]

Legitimate response in this case. I really don't think what Amanda asked about would be common knowledge.

Edit: "Find out IC" is only annoying and uncalled for in the case of basic questions like "How much money is 'three small?'" The answers are basic things that everyone should know (if only to stop newbs from embarrassing themselves with the inevitable ">ooc wha?"). It used to be annoyingly common that people would use it in cases like this, but I haven't seen that as much on the GDB of late.

[Cutthroat]

It's a legitimate response to the question asked in that thread. While probably not a big secret, it's also probably not a situation that occurs very often, since elementalism is supposed to be rare and people that travel across the world just to get a gem, even rarer. A little bit of thinking and some actions IG can help a player determine the answer.

[Lizzie]

While it isn't something everyone would know, it is something some characters would know. The templar, for example, would know if gemming someone would result in their becoming a citizen, if they weren't before the gem. Making a blanket statement "find out IC" is worse than useless, because it leaves the player feeling like the staff is being intentionally unhelpful. A better answer to that would have been, "This is not common IC knowledge, however if you feel your character would know the answer, feel free to send a request through the request tool and the staff will look at your situation and answer you accordingly"

[Thunkkin]

A better answer to that would have been, "This is not common IC knowledge, however if you feel your character would know the answer, feel free to send a request through the request tool and the staff will look at your situation and answer you accordingly"

Why would you ever assume that you could not send a question through the request tool asking if your character could/would know a certain piece of uncommon information?

[Lizzie]

A better answer to that would have been, "This is not common IC knowledge, however if you feel your character would know the answer, feel free to send a request through the request tool and the staff will look at your situation and answer you accordingly"

Why would you ever assume that you could not send a question through the request tool asking if your character could/would know a certain piece of uncommon information?

I would assume that, because the staff specifically instructed the reader to find out IC.

[Nyr]

Often people say 'find out IC' when what they mean is 'find out IG'.

Yep, that is what I meant.  The two overlap somewhat.  I do believe the best answer would be to find out in-game.  If you believe your character would already know, you can ask staff about this via request, because your character virtually would have found out in character.  No, this isn't a big secret.  I would hesitate to even call it a "secret."  It is not in the documentation, but it could (maybe?) be inferred from the documentation--or as something you can discover in-game.  Is it wrong to ask people to put forth that effort?  I don't think so.  I agree that it could be annoying to be told "hey, you can actually find this out in game.  Dude.  Stop asking us stuff like this."

I wouldn't look at it that way.  I would look at it this way:  "Hey!  You GET to find this out in game?  HOW AWESOME IS THAT?  SO AWESOME!"

However, we do tend to err on the side of caution.  It is far better than the alternative.

There has been a bit of a surge recently in the areas of revealing in-character information and information on mechanics in the game.  This is usually done by well-meaning folk with good intentions.  We'd like to remind everyone that in this sort of game environment, it is best for things to be discovered in-character, and for mechanics to be determined in-game. Unfortunately, there is not a clear-cut line for a lot of this.  Please use your best judgment, and if you are in doubt, it may be best to simply not write anything at all.

We will reserve the right to moderate/delete posts or threads that cross the lines on either of these areas (as always).

If it is possible for you to discover something in-game, you'll probably be better off for doing so.

If a question pertains to IC information but in general it can really only be used to help a player's role-playing, is it really harmful to answer the question?

It depends on the specific situation.  In this case, it would provide a roleplaying opportunity for anyone looking to discover this answer in game.  I really miss the days that I didn't have all possible game information (hidden, pseudo-secret, and otherwise) at my fingertips.  While difficult, it is best for us staffers and long-time players to keep in mind that a long time ago, we also had these theories and questions before we KNEW about them either in-game or from staffing over those groups.

[Thunkkin]

Why would you ever assume that you could not send a question through the request tool asking if your character could/would know a certain piece of uncommon information?

I would assume that, because the staff specifically instructed the reader to find out IC.

Actually, the staff said that something was an example of information that could be found out IC.  Here's the answer: "This is an example of something you could find out IC."  Nowhere did staff say "You, in your specific situation, regarding a specific character, must toil away and find this out IC and we would never answer you in private no matter how much it made sense for your character to know this."  The fact that you've described the staff's general answer to a general question as a "worse than useless" "blanket statement" makes it seem like you're looking for a reason to be offended.  

[Kryos]

I think finding out things in game is very satisfying to the Explorer branch of gaming styles.  It can also really give a happy tweak to any of the others. Obvious, syntax questions and so on sort of fall out of the purvey of this idea, but there's help docs and helpers for all that.

In summary, I think trying to find out as much as possible IG is the best way to cultivate your playing experience, much like Nyr says.

[Lizzie]

I'm sure there are lots of thing that you -could- find out IC. Many of those things, require that another player happens to be logged in, and that particular player knows the answer to your question. Often, this just isn't efficient. There are also things that -could- be discovered IC, however, they are also things that your character -would- have grown up knowing, and that would make absolutely no sense for your character to not know, upon arrival from the hall of kings.

The answer "find out IC" or "this is something you could find out IC" becomes useless, in these cases, and more frustrating than helpful. If I were to ask a question here on the GDB, it'd be because I have either tried to find out IC and failed, or because I felt it was something that -should- be known without having to find out IC in the first place.

I'm modifying my post to add: Normally what I'd do, in such a case, is not post on the GDB at all, but rather, e-mail the staff, or ask a helper. However not all new players know which questions are okay to ask on the GDB, which to ask the staff, and which to ask a helper. That's why they ask on the GDB. Telling them to "find out IC" or saying "that's something you -could- find out IC" doesn't help them. They're not looking to learn how to find out the answer to a question. They're looking for the answer to the question.

Kid asks mom: "How do you spell anonymous?"
Mom's answer: "Look it up in the dictionary."
Kid's thoughts about the answer: "I did. But I don't know how to spell it, and you have to have some idea of how to spell something, in order to look it up in the dictionary. So now, I have received a useless answer, spent time being frustrated, and still don't have an answer to my question."
Kid wings it and hopes he gets it right, because mom has just made it clear that she isn't going to actually help him, and if pressed further, will only waste more time frustrating him.

It's the same thing.

[Thunkkin]

Fair enough, Lizzie.  I suppose I was looking at the specific post in ask the staff.  Amanda (not a new player) asks a question about in-game knowledge that is not related to her character (she says she's curious because she saw another character in this situation) and staff responded that this should probably be found out in the game.  In this situation, the response was appropriate.  Obviously, this response may or may not be appropriate for all situations or for all players.

[Rhyden]

I wouldn't look at it that way.  I would look at it this way:  "Hey!  You GET to find this out in game?  HOW AWESOME IS THAT?  SO AWESOME!"

Exactly.

I'm not sure where this negative connotation of the phrase 'Find out IC' came from, but I think it's a perfectly acceptable response to a wide variety of questions that shouldn't be answered here, or anywhere else, except for IG. Sure, it may come off as snooty if the more experienced player is basically saying "I know something you don't", but that's not always the case. There's still a ton of info I don't know about Arm, and even if it is something as harmless as asking if gemmers are citizens or property, I'd rather discover these things IC.

If I could somehow erase my memory and begin Arm again as a -complete- newb, I would, because 'finding things out IC' for me personally, is why I still play Arm. If I knew everything there was to know, I'd probably quit out of sheer boredom.

[Twilight]

Maybe just my literal perspective, but I view "Find out IC/IG" different from "Email the staff to find out".  If I am told to find out IC/IG, I should expect that I can actually find this information out IG (meaning, some alive PC character, not just player, has this informtion and could tell me) and that I could do so without coordinating with Staff (An OOC action, so no coordinating an animation or answer through email).  If you answer is -meant- to be something outside these, you should be giving the correct answer instead of resorting to a cliche because you are lazy.

[Blackisback]

Am I the only one who reads "find out IC" as some pretentious, smug, self-felating way for Arm elitists to inject their "superiority" into an otherwise interesting discussion?

I can almost imagine someone typing it into their browser, leaning back in their chair as they hit the "post" button with a smug smile on their face, slowly muttering the words "heh, pleebs" to no one in particular before furiously f5ing until someone inevitably responds to it.

[Akoto]

Am I the only one who reads "find out IC" as some pretentious, smug, self-felating way for Arm elitists to inject their "superiority" into an otherwise interesting discussion?

You shouldn't read it that way. There's a lot of information which isn't even remotely shared in the public documentation, and you can get into trouble for spreading it around on the GDB. When in doubt, it's the best answer to give.

[Synthesis]

Am I the only one who reads "find out IC" as some pretentious, smug, self-felating way for Arm elitists to inject their "superiority" into an otherwise interesting discussion?

You shouldn't read it that way. There's a lot of information which isn't even remotely shared in the public documentation, and you can get into trouble for spreading it around on the GDB. When in doubt, it's the best answer to give.

Yeah, it's nothing about superiority.  I've been temp-banned like...two or three times now since the new policy went into effect for posting things that were just a teensy bit over the borderline.

God damn, it is annoying when you have very strong evidence that supports your position, but you can't reveal the data.  However, it is even more annoying to be banned for a week.

[Lizzie]

You're not the only one who reads it that way. I read it that way too. There are ways of saying "find out IC" that take up only a few extra words, but result in a less frustrated reader. Like, "I don't see any documentation to link you to, so this may be an IC situation." Or, "if you're having trouble finding this information out ICly, you should probably ask the staff." Or even .. (no response at all).

[jstorrie]

Questions like the gem-related one, because they deal with fuzzy areas of in-game social norms/politics, are definitely 'find out in-character' material because they basically don't have an answer until you ask a PC templar and she makes the call.

Many things in Arm are basically decided on the fly by whichever PCs are currently the active authority figures. It's not like either city has a constitution or an eight-hundred-page civil code.

[Saellyn]

Questions like the gem-related one, because they deal with fuzzy areas of in-game social norms/politics, are definitely 'find out in-character' material because they basically don't have an answer until you ask a PC templar and she makes the call.

Many things in Arm are basically decided on the fly by whichever PCs are currently the active authority figures. It's not like either city has a constitution or an eight-hundred-page civil code.

When you wear a gem, they give you a flying Kank, don't they? I thought that was like... the only reason people got the Gem.

But seriously, finding stuff out IC is wicked fun. Especially when you get to find out IC that the code makes you do stuff that sometimes you don't want to do.

[Agent_137]

find out IC is short, snippy, overused, and thus rude.

if you really mean it, say, "you can and should learn this through the normal course of play. try asking your local *insert authority figure here* for more information."

[spawnloser]

"Find out IC" is simply a short and properly descriptive suggestion.  I have no problem with it.  I think that those that do have a problem with it are too sensitive for some reason.

[Gobbleneck]

find out IC is short, snippy, overused, and thus rude.

The GBD is a harsh and gritty place.

[X-D]

I'm gonna have to agree with Spawn on this one.

find out IC/IG is short, to the point and gives away no IC info.

[Thunkkin]

if you really mean it, say, "you can and should learn this through the normal course of play. try asking your local *insert authority figure here* for more information."

I don't know.  Those are strong, declarative statements without gentle nuances and thus could still be taken as overly blunt or offensive.  Only the most sensitive phrasing is appropriate.  Anything less will crush my delicate sensibilities.  For myself, I hope to be addressed in this way:

Dear Luv-Tregil,
We luv u an wants 2 snuggle wif u and groom ur lovely, snuggly ears.  Plz snuggle wif us in da wurld ov Zalanthas wer we will teach u how 2 has cheezburger an othr IC informashun dat shud not be discusd publicly on teh mesage bord.
Yours wif best wishez,
Teh Othr Luv-Tregils

[Rhyden]

You guys should find out IC if finding out IC truly holds all this negative connotation.

[maxid]

Dear Luv-Tregil,
We luv u an wants 2 snuggle wif u and groom ur lovely, snuggly ears.  Plz snuggle wif us in da wurld ov Zalanthas wer we will teach u how 2 has cheezburger an othr IC informashun dat shud not be discusd publicly on teh mesage bord.
Yours wif best wishez,
Teh Othr Luv-Tregils

Ah useless, pointless hyperbole.  Hallmark of the Troll.

Find out IC is, often, overused on the GDB.  This is not, exactly, one of those cases but, it's not something that is very easy to find out IC, even if you actually are in one of those situations.  Most people don't know, because of the endless cycle of 'Find out IC!!!' so, when a Templar gets asked, the Templar might not OOCly know, thus they are unable to supply an IC answer.

Amazing how that works.

[Thunkkin]

Ah useless, pointless hyperbole.  Hallmark of the Troll.

First, I was being silly.  Second, I notice that despite your new user ID, you seem to be using this account mainly to enter into combative conversations while displaying a good knowledge of the game.  Hallmark of the troll?  

Personally, I'd prefer to be the hall monitor of the trolls.  Your point is valid.  However, my point, wrapped in silliness, was that those who are offended by "tone" may need to adjust their expectations.  Yes, we should all strive to be civil and polite but taking offense when it's not clear that you need to be offended, especially given the nature of this game and the power structures (IC and OOC) which are inherent to it, is not productive.

Edit:  Signed, Wuv-Tregil

2nd Edit: I've never considered lolcat-speak as hyperbole before.  That's actually fairly intriguing.

[Is Friday]

Speaking of 'find out IC', I am trying the "question" option of my request page for probably the first time. (If I had before, I certainly don't remember.) My question is something I "cannot" find out IC, because it deals almost entirely with the vnpc population. I really hope that works out for me.

[Jdr]

I asked a question recently and they told me the answer! Gogo mighty request tool.

[RogueGunslinger]

I'm really not seeing these rude, abrasive "find out IC" posts. Link plz?

Edit: It's semantics. Anyone can get upset over any form of telling someone something they don't want to hear. People are always looking for clear, defined answers, and a lot of times there's no such thing.

[Cutthroat]

1) The GDB isn't a harsh and gritty place. Leave the rudeness for the game.

2) On that note, I don't think "Find out IC" is rude. I think there are more elaborate ways of saying the same thing. I think if you don't want to risk giving too much away (better safe than sorry, and so on) then saying Find out IC is fine.

3) If you're playing the kind of PC that would be asked such questions, you can likely either A) read written texts IG or B) ooc board posts or C) documentation that explains everything or D) ask staff who will give you the knowledge your character knows. Templars, nobles and GMH merchants have lots of knowledge they can choose to share.

[Riev]

Just popping in to say that when I was a newbie, I -hated- seeing someone say "Find out IC" because I felt they were trying to be superior. Now, when people ask me something as simple as "What do you think I should do when <x situation> happens?" my response is usually "Whatever your character would do, and find out ICly what happens."

Going along with a lot of topics lately, finding out IC is a treat because PC Templars and even nobles can interpret the law however they want (well, within reason). Someone may say "Well, I just wanted to know if this would be common knowledge." but in the end, even "common knowledge" has to be found out first. If it isn't common knowledge to you, maybe its not common knowledge to your PC.

However, many people do say "Find out IC" and then add a snarky smiley face or other condescending addition that seems more like "Ha ha I know the answer, and you have to figure it out."

[RogueGunslinger]

However, many people do say "Find out IC" and then add a snarky smiley face

Even the use of smileys are being interpreted as negative!? 

This is exactly my point. Stop being so sensitive guys, because you don't know the intentions of the poster, and you certainly can't read the tone in his words. Instead of suddenly omitting the phrase "find out IC" from GDBland how about we stop taking everything so personally?

[Gobbleneck]

However, many people do say "Find out IC" and then add a snarky smiley face

Even the use of smileys are being interpreted as negative!? 

This is exactly my point. Stop being so sensitive guys, because you don't know the intentions of the poster, and you certainly can't read the tone in his words. Instead of suddenly omitting the phrase "find out IC" from GDBland how about we stop taking everything so personally?

There's no need to be sarcastic.

[RogueGunslinger]

There's no intended sarcasm in that post. Maybe you're looking for another word?

[Gobbleneck]

There's no intended sarcasm in that post. Maybe you're looking for another word?

Now that's snarky.

[RogueGunslinger]

Now i can only imagine you're trying to lend to my point, which makes me say; Kudos to you! You're very clever.

[shadeoux]

There's no intended sarcasm in that post. Maybe you're looking for another word?

Now that's snarky.

I think the word is snarfy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IO3ZbQiGNkk&feature=related

[Thunkkin]

This thread has become thick with ironic nihilism.

[Reiloth]

This thread has become thick with ironic nihilism.

and has served its 'purpose' and should be 'locked'.

[maxid]

and has served its 'purpose' and should be 'locked'.

Thank you, Board Moderator Reiloth.

[Reiloth]

and has served its 'purpose' and should be 'locked'.

Thank you, Board Moderator Reiloth.

yr welcome d00d

[Agent_137]

look, pissing off newbies because they're more sensitive than the hardened veterans of the board is dumb from a player count perspective.

and it is overused, empirically.

there are 8 pages of posts when you search for "how do i"
yet there are 22 pages of posts when you search for "find out ic"

Yes that's a very limited study, but damn it's also almost triple the number of posts.

You're also passing up a chance to teach a new player something. You could say, "since the answer isn't available in the documentation, you'll need to find this out through the course of play or ask an immortal directly via the request tool."

If you don't want to type that much then save your fingers and don't even fucking post. Some one else will handle being polite and informative, like a designated Helper.

[Rogerthat]

All I know is I like noob boots. Wanna see my collection?

[maxid]

look, pissing off newbies because they're more sensitive than the hardened veterans of the board is dumb from a player count perspective.

and it is overused, empirically.

there are 8 pages of posts when you search for "how do i"
yet there are 22 pages of posts when you search for "find out ic"

Yes that's a very limited study, but damn it's also almost triple the number of posts.

You're also passing up a chance to teach a new player something. You could say, "since the answer isn't available in the documentation, you'll need to find this out through the course of play or ask an immortal directly via the request tool."

If you don't want to type that much then save your fingers and don't even fucking post. Some one else will handle being polite and informative, like a designated Helper.

+1

This is excellent advice.  If you don't want to help, or expend the energy to make the newb feel a bit more welcome than 'FIND OUT IC' don't bother posting.  You just scare people off of our already fairly low population game.