Noble Guild

[brytta.leofa]

Lord Fancypants Borsail? He's got a two-headed mekillot/silt-horror abomination stuffed and mounted in his estate that he killed by himself!*

*Sure-- he used a crew of muls and half-giant slaves to help him out, but nobody needs to know that, yeah?

I totally wanted to app a Fale who "hunted" and considered himself the pinnacle of southern masculinity toughness.  But it got shot down.   

[Thunkkin]

Lord Fancypants Borsail? He's got a two-headed mekillot/silt-horror abomination stuffed and mounted in his estate that he killed by himself!*

*Sure-- he used a crew of muls and half-giant slaves to help him out, but nobody needs to know that, yeah?

I totally wanted to app a Fale who "hunted" and considered himself the pinnacle of southern masculinity toughness.  But it got shot down.   

He could have hooked up with my idea for a cowardly, bed-wetting sissy Tor who got nauseous at the sight of blood.

---
The frail, wispy youth says in sirihish, shrieking,
    "Oh my highlord!  A splinter!  Help!  Someone get it out!  Tell Mallor!  It's right in my THUMB!  I'm going to fa---"

The frail, wispy youth faints, his eyes rolling up into his head.
---

Ok, I just made that up, but now I want to app it.

[jstorrie]

Nobility in RL history has almost always had a habit of trying to be better at stuff than average commoners.

Knights of Medieval Europe?

Japanese Samurai?

They were nobles.

Just to name a couple.

Yeah, but Zalanthas isn't Earth. The documentation does not describe Allanaki nobles at all that way–this is a nobility which likes to wear shoes so fancy that they can't walk around, remember?

Tuluki nobles are a slight bit more hands-on but I wouldn't say they're comparable to medieval knights or samurai. The Zalanthan city-states have powerful standing armies; this isn't a setting with a privileged warrior caste of any kind.

[Qzzrbl]

Nobility in RL history has almost always had a habit of trying to be better at stuff than average commoners.

Knights of Medieval Europe?

Japanese Samurai?

They were nobles.

Just to name a couple.

Yeah, but Zalanthas isn't Earth. The documentation does not describe Allanaki nobles at all that way–this is a nobility which likes to wear shoes so fancy that they can't walk around, remember?

Tuluki nobles are a slight bit more hands-on but I wouldn't say they're comparable to medieval knights or samurai. The Zalanthan city-states have powerful standing armies; this isn't a setting with a privileged warrior caste of any kind.

Perhaps with the exception of Lyksae and Tor....

Why am I even posting in this thread, I've never played a noble.

[jstorrie]

With the definite exception of Lyksae and Tor, as mentioned previously in this thread. Also with the exception of any noble with a relevant background, as most noble houses do have nobles who oversee their House guard, their estate servants, etc. The average noble PC is generally not those guys, though.

I want to be clear that I'm not suggesting you can't have a noble who swings a sword or crafts a shield, by any means. But because those sorts of activites are far outside the norm for the average Zalanthan noble, I think they should be significantly less common. If you want to spam-craft or hunt a lot, you should probably be playing a commoner.

[Qzzrbl]

Just a question though.... Weren't some noble houses (Nenyuk was one of them, I think) closed for play because of so many players storing their nobles because all they were allowed to do was boring noble stuff?

I could be -entirely- misinformed on this. :<

[jstorrie]

Nenyuk was closed for play because you spent your entire life renting out apartments, AFAIK–it wasn't that the role was limiting but rather that it was inherently full of drudgery and busywork.

I wouldn't say that politicking and scheming around Tuluk or Allanak is 'boring noble stuff' at all–it's kind of the entire point of the role. You can still run the political game just fine without parry, scan, spear_crafting and blind_fighting.

[AmandaGreathouse]

I thought Nenyuk was a GMH in north and south both?

[Delstro]

It was.

I view each noble house as a two sided beast. One side that gets their hands dirty doing the physical labor that is supervised by younger, robust nobles, and the other side, the admin side, ruled by experienced and non-physically capable nobles.
Young nobles would serve under slightly older and very experienced commoners to learn the dangerous or physical trades before earning their stripes and promotions.
Once a young noble progresses past the first step, he would be in charge of the commoners completely and for training the younger nobles.
Once an experienced noble progresses to the next step, he would be put behind a desk to learn the paperwork under more experienced nobles.
And so on...

I see nobles from each side of the shield wall able to specialize in swords, knives, shields, spears, archery, and the other strictly combat skills.
I see commoners from each side able to specialize in axes, clubs, knives, shields, spears, etc, but not in swords or archery, right from the beginning.

[Ashes]

It was.

I view each noble house as a two sided beast. One side that gets their hands dirty doing the physical labor that is supervised by younger, robust nobles, and the other side, the admin side, ruled by experienced and non-physically capable nobles.
Young nobles would serve under slightly older and very experienced commoners to learn the dangerous or physical trades before earning their stripes and promotions.
Once a young noble progresses past the first step, he would be in charge of the commoners completely and for training the younger nobles.
Once an experienced noble progresses to the next step, he would be put behind a desk to learn the paperwork under more experienced nobles.
And so on...

I see nobles from each side of the shield wall able to specialize in swords, knives, shields, spears, archery, and the other strictly combat skills.
I see commoners from each side able to specialize in axes, clubs, knives, shields, spears, etc, but not in swords or archery, right from the beginning.

Except in reality, it doesn't work like that at all.

The way the Noble houses interact, and even how the city-states' governments work, is really ridiculously nebulous and undefined.  There's really nothing stopping a noble from going out and hunting, but there's always social pressures, political dangers, and the risk of being disarmed by adversaries in other noble houses or of losing favor with templars.  Besides, why would they?  They can just pay someone else to hunt for them and claim credit for the two-headed mekillot-silt-horror pelt on their wall.

A Noble guild would be nice, but there is already quite a bit of code in place to support a noble fulfilling a role.  They don't really need skills to do what they do, or to fulfill on their role and have a blast doing it.  Of course, I've never played a noble, just played around them.

[jstorrie]

Most of the recommendations in this thread have centered on a noble guild having fewer skills than mundane guilds.

[Thunkkin]

Giving nobles fewer things to do in the name of realism seems likely to contribute to noble burn-out and fatigue.  Jesus.  Let them have hobbies.

[Pantoufle]

Redundant with the existing guild/subguild options available.

[Delstro]

I'd say give them higher starting crafting skills and low starting combat skills.

They are nobles, they don't have to toil in the sparring hall for 6 hours a day and then clean the barracks for 4 hours every Nekrete.

They are bound to have hobbies.

I'd give them the drawing skill, and let them pick the area of crafting that they would enjoy. Stone carving, wood carving, archery, etc.

Nobles, Merchants, and Templars have a lot of ups and downs. Crafting skills are useful to bypass the downs.

[jstorrie]

Giving nobles fewer things to do in the name of realism seems likely to contribute to noble burn-out and fatigue.  Jesus.  Let them have hobbies.

I don't know if parry, stealth, lockpicking, wilderness quit, wagon-making, or lumberjacking are skills that a noble necessarily needs to have to have a hobby.

Moreover, 'noble guild'/subguild crafter seems to cover hobbyists pretty well, doesn't it? Why do they need all the ranger or merchant goodies if they only have a couple of hobbies they dabble in?

[EldritchOrigins]

When they start coding social skills for nobles like charisma, humor, subterfuge, maybe then the other skills wouldn't matter.

[hyzhenhok]

Giving nobles fewer things to do in the name of realism seems likely to contribute to noble burn-out and fatigue.  Jesus.  Let them have hobbies.

I don't know if parry, stealth, lockpicking, wilderness quit, wagon-making, or lumberjacking are skills that a noble necessarily needs to have to have a hobby.

Moreover, 'noble guild'/subguild crafter seems to cover hobbyists pretty well, doesn't it? Why do they need all the ranger or merchant goodies if they only have a couple of hobbies they dabble in?

What's wrong with a noble having a knack for parry, stealth, lockpicking, wilderness survival, wagon-making, or lumberjacking, even if they probably will never have use for that talent? That's all having a skill on your skill list really represents. As nobles are sponsored roles only, there's really no reason to worry about nobles failing to roleplay it out properly. The reverse is true as well: there's no reason to assume all nobles are good at listening, watching, and whatever else is deemed noble-y enough to fit the guild_noble.

Not to mention it would be a change that would actually promote guild sniffing. You're a noble? Well, I played a noble once, so I know all of your skills! And where does it stop? Merchant house family PCs should have limited guilds. (Someone already suggested this!) 'Rinthers should have limited guilds. People in Allanak should have different guilds from people in Tuluk. In fact, every single PC should have a custom guild that matches their background.

Personally I think it's awesome when a leader PC busts out a skill that you didn't expect them to have.

[Jdr]

I've found that the secret to success as a Noble, and having fun as one, is the moment where you stop trying to Win the Game, and start trying to Lose (in a way).

[spawnloser]

Even so, it would kinda makes sense for nobles to actually be able to -prove- they're better than your average low-class scum.

You see, the point is that they DON'T need to prove anything.  They just ARE better and everyone knows it.

I thought Nenyuk was a GMH in north and south both?

It was.

It IS.  It just isn't open for play.  They also have presence outside just those two locations.

Most of the recommendations in this thread have centered on a noble guild having fewer skills than mundane guilds.

Giving nobles fewer things to do in the name of realism seems likely to contribute to noble burn-out and fatigue.  Jesus.  Let them have hobbies.

Who says you need skills to have hobbies?  They can have fewer coded skills but still have more/plenty of skills that are useful to someone that doesn't get his/her own hands dirty.

[AmandaGreathouse]

Even so, it would kinda makes sense for nobles to actually be able to -prove- they're better than your average low-class scum.

You see, the point is that they DON'T need to prove anything.  They just ARE better and everyone knows it.

I thought Nenyuk was a GMH in north and south both?

It was.

It IS.  It just isn't open for play.  They also have presence outside just those two locations.

Most of the recommendations in this thread have centered on a noble guild having fewer skills than mundane guilds.

Giving nobles fewer things to do in the name of realism seems likely to contribute to noble burn-out and fatigue.  Jesus.  Let them have hobbies.

Who says you need skills to have hobbies?  They can have fewer coded skills but still have more/plenty of skills that are useful to someone that doesn't get his/her own hands dirty.

On the quote from me, I knew it, I was just pointing out that it was irrelevant, in a roundabout way.

As to the rest... I actually couldn't agree with you more, spawnloser.

Hobbies aren't necessarily coded skills, and skills usually aren't hobbies. So I fail to see the correlation.

Teamaking, dancing, poetry, elaborately choreographed swordplay, writing, gardening, and that's just the tip of the things you don't really need any skills for at all that make suitable hobbies. [the swordplay one, think more of a staged fight than actual combat, probably mostly, if not all emoting, and probably with some sort of performance value on the level of entertainment more so than actual usefulness.]

[X-D]

Not to mention gambling...something I'm usually amazed nobles don't take up to a greater degree.

[Qzzrbl]

If a change like this goes through, it really wouldn't affect me much.... I've never played a noble, and I'm not terribly interested in it.

But I -do- love having nobles around to interact with.

I just hope being codedly good at not much of anything wouldn't deter players from snatching up noble roles.

[jstorrie]

You don't really have the opportunity to 'grind' many skills as a noble anyway; social conventions prevent you from regularly sparring most of the time, and security concerns from hunting. What you do have an almost unrestricted ability to do is grind crafting skills, and I really don't think most nobles should be doing that.

[RogueGunslinger]

I really hate the idea of knowing what someones skills are going to be, just because they are in a certain role. I'm sure there's a reason why the Templars skill list insn't open for just anyone to see.

[Delstro]

One thing that I would also love to see included in a noble guild is the ability to draw.

If they could 'draw,' I think that would be awesome.

Abuseable? Sure, but who cares?