Economy

[Aaron Goulet]

Here again, what you're saying is:

1.  You can never amass wealth
2.  You will always be poor, ha ha ha on you, my clanny can outspend you again
3.  Forget any dreams of owning anything of your own, just sit around the tavern all day gabbing with us
4.  Waaa waaa waaa, it's not fair, I have no sid of my own.

I think that's an exaggeration.  Clanned PCs are poor too, poorer than most independents.  Also, you can still amass quite a bit of wealth as an independent, even still.  If coin weight is an issue, see:

One concern that was raised by someone (I forget who) is that coins get too weighty to carry around in large sums.  If this is indeed the case (and I'm still not convinced that it is), the staff should easily be able to modify currency weight to balance things a little.  This could even be justified in-game by the introduction of a new denomination of obsidian coin.

You know what?  Leave things the way they are, lots of people are enjoying it as it is.  When you finally wrap your head around the fact
that amassing wealth is not the know all end all, then your future characters will be better off because you at least have some idea of how
to make it.  In case noone has noticed, since the events of the HRPT, things have gotten a WHOLE LOT more expensive.  So let's keep the
status quo.  We shouldn't have to make everyone suffer so a few players can get the RP the way they want it.  Point is that it's working for everyone.
Focus on how to bring more people in than finding ways to push some of the playerbase away and limiting the number of new players that want to join up.

Again, I don't see how this is accurate.  You're right in that amassing wealth is not the know-all, end-all, but I doubt this will make everyone "suffer".  It will make things harder, sure, but independents will still be able to accrue wealth, parade around wearing unique, expensive objects, buy silt skimmers, etc.  It just becomes harder than it is now.  Contrary to what you say, it is NOT working for everyone, because it keeps on coming up every month.

Also, I doubt it may have an affect on new players that want to join up, seeing as they aren't the ones reaping the benefits of having a massive bank account;  it's the seasoned players who know where to greb for X or what ingredients are needed to craft Y who are getting rich.

The problem with the status quo is that a lot of people are comfortable with playing filthy-rich (by Zalanthan standards) independent characters, which shouldn't be happening with the frequency that it does now.  As a result, clans aren't nearly as attractive as they should be, and the game world really isn't benefiting from everyone being rich; rich PCs are benefiting from getting rich.

These interactions are typically much more expensive than they are for clanned characters.  For example, I had a Tuluki templar confiscate well over 5,000 'sid in coins/gear.  Average payment to keep Guild burglars out of your apartment has been around 500 'sid, although perhaps I've been over-paying in the attempt to placate them.  Average bribe to a templar: 500 'sid per templar every few weeks. Average bribe to a militia PC:  100 'sid whenever they want it (this can be more expensive than bribing a templar if you have a militia PC with high playtimes). Price of a Byn contract: 1,000 'sid minimum, usually, and it goes up from there.  Price of a difficult/risky assassination contract: 5,000 'sid.

I fail to see how this is typical or common.  And losing five thousand coins should be a hard hit.

If banks were abolished, where would people find the coins to pay off large sums like this?  Carrying around 5,000+ coins is foolish, and yes, coins are heavy.  5,000 coins in inventory drops my current PC from "light" encumbrance to "heavy, but manageable."  Another 5,000 to VERY heavy.  Another 5,000 to unbelievably heavy (at or over maximum encumbrance).

Coin weight can be adjusted, if it is truly unbalanced (see above).

Yes, those are large amounts of 'sid as far as the documentation is concerned, but they aren't large amounts when you consider the ACTUAL state of the ACTUAL economy.  The price of a single meal that will fill you from "a little hungry" to "full" in a tavern, with enough booze to get you buzzed is around 200 coins in Allanak (and actually, buying scrab steaks in the Gaj is currently cheaper than buying just about anything at all from the grocer).  A single piece of armor in Allanak can run you over 500 'sid.  500 to replace a mount stolen by a d-elf.  When one of my previous characters had his matched set of armor stolen by a burglar, it cost over 6,000 'sid to buy it back from Salarr.  Now, according to the documentation, these sorts of sums are ridiculous.  6,000 'sid to replace a slightly-better-than-average set of mercenary armor is just plain retarded, when the "average" Zalanthan supposedly gets by on 300 'sid a month...if the docs were strictly correct, it would take an average mercenary's entire pay for 20 months (7 IC years) to get a full set of decent gear.  Also, as a PC, you better be eating only 1.5 times a month, or you're screwed, according to the docs!  Furthermore, my current PC spends about 1,100 'sid every 125 IC days just on RENT.  That comes out to...I don't know...around 400 I have to spend to keep rent updated every time I log in and bother to pay.  If I decided to stop hunting, grebbing, and crafting, the 15k I have in the bank would be gone or drastically depleted within an IC year.

It sounds like your character had/has a pretty cushy life.  By all accounts, the scenario above really doesn't represent the average independent commoner, or even the average independent PC.  Keeping up such a lifestyle should require a lot of work.  Also, losing six thousand 'sid's worth of equipment in a theft should be pretty devastating.  I do agree, though, that things are pretty expensive, in general; expensive to the point that most clanned PCs need to pick up secondary jobs.

The main pain in the ass is that it will tightly bind together crafting/grebbing activity with expenses.  Currently, I can greb up 5,000 or so 'sid in a couple of RL weeks then just chill and do whatever the fuck I feel like doing (like actually interacting with other PCs) for the next RL month or so.  Without a bank, every time I log in, I will have to greb/craft/etc....then go pay my rent to get rid of the excess, then go purchase food immediately to get rid of the excess, then go pay my other miscellaneous expenses immediately to get rid of the excess, and if Templars A and B and Militia PCs A, B, and C and the Guild guy and the Red Fang guy aren't online at the time, I'm stuck holding a fucking fat sack of cash until I can catch up to them, which may take a RL week or more.  Is that concrete enough for you?

How is carrying five thousand coins impossible without banks?  You should, as you say, still be able to "do whatever the fuck you feel like doing".  Fifteen thousand may be a different story.

It is clunky because it imprecisely targets the source of the problem.  That's pretty much all I meant by that.  It's like chemotherapy vs. surgery:  if you have a solid tumor in an easily accessible location with no important anatomical structures nearby, there is no reason to start giving systemic chemotherapy to get rid of it, when you can go in and surgically remove the damn thing.

The "problem" as I have seen it stated is that some folks have more coins (and can make more coins) than some folks think they should have/should be able to generate.  As I stated previously, the anti-bank fix does nothing to change this, the fundamental basis of the complaint.  Instead, it imposes a pain-in-the-ass (see above) restriction on the entire playerbase in the vain hope that folks will decide to stop making tons of 'sid.  And I believe I've previously explained why the anti-bank suggestion will fail at that, as well.

As you've pointed out yourself, having a lot of coins is a pain in the ass without banks.  I think it succeeds in limiting the amount of accrued wealth pretty nicely.

As to the ability of nobles/templars to employ people, the Staff have never stated an intent to shoehorn players into employment by any clan or House.  If anything, the addition of poop scraping, cotton picking, obsidian mining, and salt foraging signals a desire to maintain the independent, unclanned character as a viable concept.  If your GMH Agent or noble or templar can't convince people to join the clan with 'sids, COME UP WITH SOMETHING BETTER.  If you're a Salarri, offer people free badass armor.  If you're a Kadian, offer them...well...yeah, nobody really gives a crap about what Kadius sells, so maybe you had better stick to the coins.  If you're Kuraci, give 'em a free tent and a brick of spice (tents are stupid cheap and easy to craft, btw, so this is nothing more than an opportunity cost for a real merchant).  I mean, seriously...the list goes on and on and on.  There are a million things in this game more important than 'sid, and really I'm tired of trying to come up with compelling examples of all of them when it's obvious some people in this thread are merely being obstinate for the sake of rhetorical advantage.

You're also downplaying the importance of wealth.  People argue that, even with coin, you still can't go up against nobility/the templarate.  I tend to agree with that.  You can, however, afford 5,000 'sid assassination contracts.  You can also obtain a lot of privileges that your betters (noble house/merchant house servants) cannot.  I agree with you, that people shouldn't be boxed into clans, but it doesn't change the fact that there is still a fundamental balance issue caused by the hoarding and easy access (which, admittedly, the latter isn't addressed by this change) of wealth.

I agree that making 'sid harder to earn would be a more worthwhile solution, Synthesis, but it simply isn't viable.  You're proposing that hundreds, possibly thousands of objects have values tweaked, versus maybe six lines of code.  Also, it has the benefit of not excluding casual players.  I'm not saying that the change wouldn't be without drawbacks, but it still seems like the drawbacks pale in comparison to the benefits.

[Sinna]

I think it is acceptable that they have 15k to fall back on if they are beset by hard times, though.

The last time I checked any commoner is supposed to BE beset by hard times.  Isn't this a post-apocolyptic, resources-rare, gritty, low-fantasy RPI mud?

Having enough coin to buy a replacement mount should, I think, make the average Joe/Jane feel quite wealthy.

And if you argue, well PCs aren't the "average Joe/Jane" are you saying that it's alright for elves to ride mounts (they aren't the average elf) or that it's socially acceptable a human PC to have romantic relations with an elf PC (they aren't average, either).

In my understanding of the game it clearly isn't right to have a commoner have 15K to fall back on.

[Synthesis]

You guys are a little late to the party.  Addressed, re-addressed, and 2.re-addressed.

PC != average
game != broken
1.perception != 2.perception
common?

Really, I'm a little disappointed at continually being faced with the same arguments I've already attacked, when they're only restated in different terms.

Calling red vermilion doesn't constitute additional evidence on behalf of your case.

[ianmartin]

It keeps coming up as an issue because a few people keep bringing it up.  What's two or three compared to 70, unreal if you ask me.

If you ask me they need to stop worrying about what person X is doing and focus on their own stuff.  I don't care how much sid you have.
To me it's irrelevant.

[musashi]

Yeah, and I think Synth and I have already beat this one to death pretty good.

The "no banks for commoners" idea is out there, and I think both sides of the issue, for and against, have been expressed about as well as they are going to ever be.

What I'd like to see now are some other ideas about how we might be able to close that schism between the amount of money a 40 hours a week indie can make vs. a 40 hour a week clanned.

[spawnloser]

I already gave you one, musashi, give clannies apartments as part of the deal instead of just a barracks.  Honestly, I think that clannies getting apartments is stupid most of the time, but for some silly reason, everyone needs 5 apartments, clanned or not.

Edit to add: this would ideally free up some apartments for other people, too, if those clanned dorks didn't feel the need to get that one last apartment.

[Cutthroat]

Another one that's already been mentioned somewhere:
All the NPCs involved in NPC jobs should have a IC daily limit in coins about what they are willing to give to a PC.

For example, say the limit in the saltyard is X coins a day.
- Amos goes to the saltyard, sells X coins' worth of salt.
- Saltyard person gives X coins to Amos.
- Amos comes back with more salt.
- Saltyard person tells them to come back tomorrow - if he floods the saltyard with salt, there won't be room for any more salt.
- Malik comes over with X coins worth of salt and sells it. Malik's limits are not affected by Amos' selling.

Repeat for mining, cotton picking, dung, other jobs.

Also, perhaps the amount of money that NPCs pay for those things should be adjusted downward.

And lastly, adjust the prices for commonly crafted goods that go to shops.

With changes like this, I think independents will be able to make enough money to keep them afloat. If limits were around 150-200 coins on those coded jobs per IC day, that's way more than enough to buy food and water (if you are even buying food and water), lodging, and supplies/mounts.

[Sinna]

You guys are a little late to the party.  Addressed, re-addressed, and 2.re-addressed.

PC != average

Just to be clear, because I'm a little slow, I guess.
You believe:  PC's are NOT average for the game world.

Does this imply that PCs may behave in a way contrary to the documentation?  (That is, loving half-breeds, roundears mating with pointears, elves riding mounts...)

And I suspect that you believe that PCs should hold to the docs for such examples, why do you draw the line at massive amounts of obsidian?  

Frankly, if you have too much sid to carry around with you, as a commoner, I suspect that's an indication you are not paying attention to the docs, but you know my take.  I just don't _get_ your logic and reasoning beyond "it's fun" and "it's what I want to do with my characters."

I know you are smarter than that and I know you play your characters well, first-hand, but I'm obviously not clear on your thinking here and a I really want to understand it because , otherwise I have to think you're just another WOW player hanging out on a mud.  And I want to believe that's not true.

I also want to believe that a lot of your argument isn't based around the bitterness of a past unsatisfactory <not to be mentioned> experience as a clan lead.

So, Synth, I'm honestly begging you to tell me why you think a commoner should have 15k laying around at his disposal because when my characters walk the street and look at the world, I see something completely different.

[Aaron Goulet]

PC != average
game != broken
1.perception != 2.perception
common?

Really, I'm a little disappointed at continually being faced with the same arguments I've already attacked, when they're only restated in different terms.

Calling red vermilion doesn't constitute additional evidence on behalf of your case.

What I was trying to get at, politely, is that you haven't provided anything solid; just some atypical (by player character standards, not commoner standards) anecdotal scenarios in which you were throwing around money like it was sand.  Staff members and players alike have indicated that there is something wrong with the distribution of wealth, as it currently stands.  You may not like it (probably because you reap the benefits of a broken system), but it doesn't change the fact that this is currently the case.

Things have been restated for you, necessarily, because you've been ignoring them and using verbal subterfuge in an attempt to be persuasive in your opposition, rather than actually addressing the crux of the issue.

I'm leaving this thread as it is, for the time being; I'm not going to take part in a war of attrition.  I've made my points in my prior posts, and they still stand.  The rest is up to the staff.

(Edited to be a little nicer.)

[netflix]

I already gave you one, musashi, give clannies apartments as part of the deal instead of just a barracks.  Honestly, I think that clannies getting apartments is stupid most of the time, but for some silly reason, everyone needs 5 apartments, clanned or not.

Actually, that would be an interesting notion. And making it so that the rooms (save perhaps those of PCs of sufficient rank) don't have locks, which would mean there'd be very little added adminstrative work for PC leaders and clan staff, and would permit PC leaders to gain access to said grunts apartments if need be (and before people cry out about privacy and so, no, you don't have any rights). These rooms, save for the ranking PC rooms, could be "nice", since there's a level of control over the tennants, though would certainly be tiny.

It makes sense, in a way. One thing I've always wondered about, when you have, say, Salarr, with say, 2,000 employees in a city. Are all of these 2,000 people expected to be living in the estate's single bunk room? Just how large are these estates? Does the GMH expect their employees to live elsewhere, when the very cheapest of apartments cost -more- then most of them make?

Call it a dorm. Smack a clanned guard on the door akin to the various estates and barracks already established (said barracks being upgraded into dorms themselves). And the burglars scream out about not being able to get in? Well, regular apartments are in such high demand, it sometimes being impossible to find one after weeks of looking, I doubt the burglars are going to find a drop in business. Since most House employees typically keep all their valuables in barracks lockers anyway.

[Qzzrbl]

Any criminal/corrupt politician worth his weight in ssnd knows better than to overcharge when extorting for two reasons:

1) Charging too much drives victims away-- meaning you won't see another coin out of them unless you decide to chase them down.

2) Killing victims that don't have the money to pay up = 1 less person paying up.

I see it leading to criminal elements charging less to indies, and perhaps focusing more on organizations and clans, 'cause that's where the real money's gonna be at if the change goes in.

That's what my experiences in Zalanthan Organized Crime  has taught me at least.

I don't disagree with any of that, but there is, by necessity of lack of complete information, a disconnect between what the criminal player thinks is fair (i.e. will not increase the desire to spam<whatever> for the victim) and what the effects of the encounter on the victim will actually be.

Said criminal player would wind up thoroughly unsuccessful.

The main problem I've seen with the economy thus far, is that there's an NPC organization that will hold an unlimited number of coins completely safe and unable to be stolen from. An organization that will do this free of charge and for any nobody who walks up and drops coins on the table.

Why is this a problem, exactly?  When Nenyuk takes your coins, they aren't just sitting on them and doing nothing.  Ostensibly, they are paying master artisans and their House employees with it all, and using it to turn massive amounts of profits by investing your coins in whatever their projects are.  They're using it to keep their favorite templars happy, using it to pay the city-states to hold on to all that property they rent out, and using it to keep the criminals off their backs.  They're the most ingenious Greater Merchant House in the Known World:  they don't even have to SELL ANYTHING to get people to give them their money (for at least the half of their business model that concerns the banks).

It's a problem because they never fail! They will keep your coins 100% guaranteed safe, for free, no charge, even for your filthy tribal, or 'Rinthi rat, they will lock those coins away and nothing will ever happen to them, ever, no matter what, those coins will be there when you need them.

They never make bad investments.

They never make mistakes.

And  when the last time there's been a project worth investing in on Zalanthas? Nothing really goes on that they could benefit from by investing in! Even in the VNPC and NPC world, I haven't seen much of anything Nenyuk could stand to gain from as far as investing goes, except maybe trying to rebuild city-states-- but really, why would a highlord need to take out a Nenyuki loan when there are so many slaves? Nenyuk doesn't seem to have any income (I could be missing something huge here, I dunno), and if they're paying artisans, paying house employees, paying for land rents, and paying templars, they're doing so with -your- money. Which means maybe every now and then, you'd see a difference-- but you don't. Ever.

I personally would love to see the economy based more around trading/bartering rather than raw coinage, for commoners at least. Couple that with the lack of a free iron vault available to anyone and everyone, and I could see things balancing out fine.

This isn't about where the majority stands, it's about a known problem that needs a solution that makes sense.

Again, known problem perceived by some.  I simply do not agree that it is a problem.  The fact that people have a "free vault..." so what?  What exactly is BAD about that, beyond the obvious "aw, it makes it tough for my burglar?"  Yes, they can amass tons of coins if they want, but what are they going to do with them?  A ton of coins for your average independent is like having an stockpile full of bullets, but no guns to shoot them from.

And moving to a pure barter system is just stupid.  It might make a neat April Fool's joke next year, though.

A "free vault that doesn't seem to generate any income whatsoever but is still able to pay shit off and survive as a business" simply isn't realistic, and it allows people who should not be getting filthy rich, to get filthy rich. In the game world as-is, 1000 coins should be considered -alot- of money, but I've seen people-- hell, I've even been guilty of having a character that would scoff at a number like that for payment because he had so much saved up in his bank account.

It doesn't matter if they can't do anything with the huge wealth of coins, it's the principal that they're able to save up that much in the first place. Like that armor you brought up earlier that cost 6000 coins to replace-- I don't think any commoner would simply have that much on hand! If that armor was your character's bread and butter, that should have devastated him! That's like in real-life, if your house gets burned down and you don't have insurance. You don't just think, "Derp, I'll just reach into my handy-dandy bank account and get another one."  

And would you mind telling me how bartering, a system that's worked effectively for thousands of years, would be stupid in a world like Armageddon? I never even said anything about a "pure" barter system, I just meant for bartering to be a bit more prevalent in lower classes. A bartering system would also help you with your coin weight problem, Syn. You could just buy a few -really- expensive jewelery pieces and use those as bargaining chips.

[Taven]

I already gave you one, musashi, give clannies apartments as part of the deal instead of just a barracks.  Honestly, I think that clannies getting apartments is stupid most of the time, but for some silly reason, everyone needs 5 apartments, clanned or not.

Actually, that would be an interesting notion. And making it so that the rooms (save perhaps those of PCs of sufficient rank) don't have locks, which would mean there'd be very little added adminstrative work for PC leaders and clan staff, and would permit PC leaders to gain access to said grunts apartments if need be (and before people cry out about privacy and so, no, you don't have any rights). These rooms, save for the ranking PC rooms, could be "nice", since there's a level of control over the tennants, though would certainly be tiny.

It makes sense, in a way. One thing I've always wondered about, when you have, say, Salarr, with say, 2,000 employees in a city. Are all of these 2,000 people expected to be living in the estate's single bunk room? Just how large are these estates? Does the GMH expect their employees to live elsewhere, when the very cheapest of apartments cost -more- then most of them make?

Call it a dorm. Smack a clanned guard on the door akin to the various estates and barracks already established (said barracks being upgraded into dorms themselves). And the burglars scream out about not being able to get in? Well, regular apartments are in such high demand, it sometimes being impossible to find one after weeks of looking, I doubt the burglars are going to find a drop in business. Since most House employees typically keep all their valuables in barracks lockers anyway.

I thought this was a nifty idea and that this thread is already splitting out in a ton of different directions, so I made a split-thread for this.

Split thread on the idea of Dorms

[LauraMars]

Um, I'm late to the party, and this is a really long and involved thread, but I just thought I'd state that as a casual and infrequent player of Armageddon, the idea of my banked money going away while I'm offline because of "fees" is really annoying.

[Lizzie]

I don't recall reading any posts including monthly bank fees or anything that would occur while you were offline.

I had suggested that there be deposit and withdrawal fees, for anyone trying to use a branch in a city where they're not a citizen. Musashi's idea is to have all unclanned commoners default to not being allowed bank accounts at all (and I believe he did include room for extenuating circumstances/special permissions from the local templarate or something like that in one of his posts).

There were other suggestions involving Nenyuk as well but I don't remember any of them mentioning someone losing money due to fees incurred while not logged into the game.

[Aaron Goulet]

Actually, I made such a suggestion.    Sorry, LauraMars!

[Old Kank]

We are discussing some options on the IDB

I'd be interested in hearing some staff thoughts on the greater 'economy' issue.  Minor unbalanced item pricing aside, do most of the staff feel that there is a problem with the economy, and if so, what do they feel the problem is?

I don't think there's any question as to whether or not the economy is off-kilter, but I'm unconvinced that it's a major issue and not just a vocal minority on the GDB.  The availability of a loose economy allows players to create the kind of character they want - players have the choice between playing a beggar or taking a few slight risks and "gearing up" their character into something akin to a middle-class range before they join the Byn - but the power structure is set up in such a way that only the most exceptional independent commoner can move up the societal ladder and have a meaningful impact on the game.

That being said, I've always wanted to see the economy fixed, but I think doing so will require changes that would constitute a major overhaul in the game.  With Arm 2.0 somewhere on the horizon, is it worth pursuing or is it better to just ride it out until Arm 1.0 concludes?

OK

[jmordetsky]

Being unclanned you can make way more money then if you were clanned. But to some extent, life unclanned is far more dangerous. I think we see 1-2 PCs per real 6mo period that are successful indies. I could be wrong there. However, if we're going to start talking about how to make clan life more attractive (which seems to be the point of the Dorms) then perhaps we should really be talking about how to make unclanned life more difficult.

The problem as I see it are the de-risked areas where one can make tons of money as an indy - mining, logging, salting, poop shoveling. There is no danger here. Now, I'm not advocating even more uber NPCs which I think would just isolate the populations to the cities and make casual play less of an option (clan life with no clannies for example is really boring in an uber dangerous desert environment).  But there is one place in the game world where being in a clan is without a doubt the most attractive options you have and it has nothing to do with NPCs and everything to do with PCs. The Rinth.

The reason this is because at any point in time if any Guild or Elf tribe PCs become significantly powerful they have free reign in the rinth to tax, torment and otherwise harass you. You're either in the gang, or your being exploited by the gang and this is the law of the land in the Rinth and a pattern that plays itself out with Rinth players over and over.

My personal belief is that the success of indies monetarily is tied to the lack of this fact in the main cities. An interesting approach might be to encourage abuse of independent PCs by clanned-PCs so that clanned life is more attractive (like gangs). For example, what if Tor Scorpions could tax you if you were protected by a house, noble merchant or otherwise? Or perhaps a guild-like raider clan is needed to step it up and start beating on indies more whereas large houses could pay protection fees for their employees or present serious threat.

Just a thought. Though - I should admit as playing an indy character right now, life is certainly not easy and I think this characters level of "survival" can only really be attributed to the fact that he had clan backing early in life and got the training he needed to live.

[brytta.leofa]

I'll just throw this out there: I still don't know how to get rich in Armageddon.

The most affluent character I've ever had achieved his highest bank balance when he finally received four months of back pay from his GMH employer.  Synthesis' 15K figure would have been unfathomable wealth for any of mine, even those that have lived moderately long lives.

But I'm a pretty casual player.

[AmandaGreathouse]

Some of the 'easier' ways to make money are veritably risk free, but they also generate a piddly amount of coins.  (Cotton picking, anyone tried it?)

Some of the 'easier' ways to make money are not low-risk.  Those tasks and my thoughts on them:

• Hunting - Some hunters have a hard time killing anything and/or skinning anything right after being accepted into the game. and playing an indie hunter could possibly be made too hard for someone to do without metagaming if it didn't have the returns it can have now.
• Salting - Too low-risk for the returns.  My suggestion, increase the number of NPC baddies.
• Mining - Similar to salting, but at least it has a cap on how much can be sold.

Couldn't agree more... although... there IS a limit with how much salt can be sold. At least to the people who buy it. The exception to that is the person who buys the fairly rare (maybe 6-8 out of about 40/pieces) kind, which isn't the normal people anyhow. Trust me, I've had the salt-buying people tell me they bought enough salt for the day... after knowing someone went in and sold them X amount.

Let's leave things how they are, if you want to live a life of poverty, then do so and be as 'realistic' as you want and do what you wish.
I also know that thinking outside of the box of what you can and can't do is what created the BYN, created the Silver Ginka and other
great works and organizations in the game.  Having a mindset that we are all doomed to live lives of poverty and mediocrity doesn't help
the advancement of the game one iota, neither does sitting in a tavern for hours on end drinking or fake drinking and talking about the
high prices of furniture and rugs and fire insurance for ladybugs.  Personally, I find THAT unrealistic, especially when you're a city guard or
what have you.  WE define how the game runs and the documentation is there as a GUIDE not as a BIBLE.  To me, staying poor and
wanting others to stay poor is simply pushing a slave mentality on the rest of those who wish to have some form of standing/respect and
perhaps a little empire of their own.

First, I totally agree with this.

Second, the problem is with people with high PLAYTIMES who do these things and farm resources, as was stated by a staff member, when you have people of equal, moderate playtimes, everything equals out reasonably.

So to change things in such a way that it forces someone to play a poorer character is also shifting the game balance. But it's shifting the game balance to force people to spend what little playtimes they have doing, X, Y, and Z with code to scrape by, rather than encouraging interaction. And the people who farm resources and hoard... are still going to do that.

WE define how the game runs and the documentation is there as a GUIDE not as a BIBLE.  To me, staying poor and wanting others to stay poor is simply pushing a slave mentality on the rest of those who wish to have some form of standing/respect and perhaps a little empire of their own.

I disagree.  We define the details, the names and the places and where and how the battles happen but on a basic level it is the staff that define how the game runs, I don't think you'd argue with that.  They set up the systems and players use the systems as a framework to role-play out their character's lives.  The documentation is a baseline of how things are and should be, it provides the foundation.  I think that when the reality of gameplay doesn't in fact match up the documentation, this a signal that something is wrong.  I think that the problem is figuring out what that problem is and addressing that.

Many of us are resistant to changes, but sometimes they aren't as bad as we think.

The staff defines the IC economy by the prices set for things and the sid you earn for things.

A day grebbing salt: 150-400 sid
2 Kalan fruits: 80 sid
2 skins of water: 80-120 sid
Mount ticket: 20 sid

So that's a possible profit margin of: -30 - -70 (If you make the least listed)
or
60-100 sid (If you make 400 sid)

I think clans should have 'free apartments' in their compounds.  Have them accessible from outside the compound.  They are only free to those clanned for that GMH/noble.  This gives them better places to live than the communal barracks.  You KNOW one of the biggest reasons that clanned bitch about this is because of how much they have to work for an apartment, because they all have to have one.  Hell, maybe more than one, some of these people.  (I hate you people that get like a half dozen apartments with ONE character, by the way.  Oh, and, "I have too much stuff for one apartment," bullshit?  Yeah, you have all that stupid trash why?)  There, now that's a proper coin sink.

I would personally love to see this for clans. Especially if clan guards guarded it, and it had better locks than regular apartments. As to the people who take up 6 apartments out of 50ish apartments when there's about 265 people who log on every week: That's bullshit, guy, I hate your apartment hoarding asshattery.

Serious props for having Terry Pratchett in your sig Boggins, btw. Just noticed that.

Well I think that putting a cap on the amount of money someone is able to attain could be a good way to go about it. I men we do that with skills and it seems to work out just fine. But I don't like the idea of a hard cap. Like, just a flat: You can only have x amount of money maximum.

But something on a sliding scale where the more money you aquire, the more challenges you face for having it, would be a step in the right direction.

The banking thing is one possible way to go about it, but I'm hardly married to that idea. Anyone else have any ideas along those lines? I think that in all the previous threads about the game's economy we've beat the "make resources more finite" and "let low play time people make automatic money" ideas to death and not gone anywhere.

Why not explore options in a new direction?

.... I'm hardly one to pick sides here... but what about the elves?

City elf is already a horrendously unpopular and underplayed choice for people... but now lets make them carry all the coin they own on them... like basic gear doesn't already leave them encumbered enough with a skin or two of water?

It sounds like your character had/has a pretty cushy life.  By all accounts, the scenario above really doesn't represent the average independent commoner, or even the average independent PC.  Keeping up such a lifestyle should require a lot of work.  Also, losing six thousand 'sid's worth of equipment in a theft should be pretty devastating.  I do agree, though, that things are pretty expensive, in general; expensive to the point that most clanned PCs need to pick up secondary jobs.

Bolded for emphasis. I think that adding in apartments or individual barrack-style rooms for clanned players and increasing their pay to, say, double what it is now, would do a lot to fix things. If not wholly.

[Vanth]

We are discussing some options on the IDB

I'd be interested in hearing some staff thoughts on the greater 'economy' issue.  Minor unbalanced item pricing aside, do most of the staff feel that there is a problem with the economy, and if so, what do they feel the problem is?

90% of the time when we find someone with 15k in the bank who we think shouldn't have, it's because of those "minor unbalanced items" which take one of two forms.  Either 1) a crafting recipe that is way too lucrative, like a 500 sid return on a 5 sid investment or 2) a merchant that has been set up incorrectly and either doesn't charge enough, or pays out too much.

So, when these instances crop up it gives us an opportunity to find out where the gaping holes in the economy are and plug them up.  It's inevitable that they're there, when a game has been around for almost 15 years and has probably had about 100 staffers over that time, there are going to be inconsistencies in how things are implemented.

There are many other things about the economy which could be changed - made harsher, or more realistic, or more interesting, or more dynamic, or whatever.  Those are the kinds of things that you guys brainstorm about here and that we also discuss on the staff board.  But 90% of the problem is the gaping holes, and that's also the easiest thing to fix, so that's where most of our energies go right now.

[Salt Merchant]

But 90% of the problem is the gaping holes, and that's also the easiest thing to fix, so that's where most of our energies go right now.

Yes, sometimes I've even had the impression that someone is following me around, tweaking things to add difficultly or to be less frequent or generally just more of a hassle.

E.g. an easy climb that suddenly becomes impossible.

No offense, but I wish the staff would devote more time to putting new things (coded toys) into the game than taking things out.

[Sinna]

Yes, sometimes I've even had the impression that someone is following me around, tweaking things to add difficultly or to be less frequent or generally just more of a hassle.

E.g. an easy climb that suddenly becomes impossible.

No offense, but I wish the staff would devote more time to putting new things (coded toys) into the game than taking things out.

I bet that is an error of perception - finding patterns when ther are none.  But I, too, know that feeling.

[Thunkkin]

Yes, sometimes I've even had the impression that someone is following me around, tweaking things to add difficultly or to be less frequent or generally just more of a hassle.

E.g. an easy climb that suddenly becomes impossible.

No offense, but I wish the staff would devote more time to putting new things (coded toys) into the game than taking things out.

Random number generators are random.

[Ashes]

And sometimes you just can't find that damn foothold.

... And then you fall back into that pack of pissed-off Blackwing. <.<

[Salt Merchant]

Yes, sometimes I've even had the impression that someone is following me around, tweaking things to add difficultly or to be less frequent or generally just more of a hassle.

E.g. an easy climb that suddenly becomes impossible.

No offense, but I wish the staff would devote more time to putting new things (coded toys) into the game than taking things out.

Random number generators are random.

This is a case where it took an average of five tries. Then it became impossible. No number of tries would work.