Social Mores

[Barzalene]

How similar are the family values of the average Zalanthan to the average Earthling of the 21st Century? How close should they be?

I would like to see big differences. Why? Well, because I want some escape from the real world. I want Zalanthas to feel foreign.

So now, there are new questions. How should these differences manifest? Why do they manifest? And, how do we account for human nature? No offense you skinnies.

What would I like to see? I would like to see monogamy as an option rather than an expectation. I would like to see less of the commoners marrying. Marriage is a contract whose purpose is to protect property. If you do not have any property, shack up.

When I played a merchant family member, and a noble, people made an effort to seduce my pc into marriage. I found that insulting. Marriage is a business deal. They underestimate my PC if they Think a few sweet words is could compromise my her business decisions.

Jealousy. This has come up recently. There was an expectation that spouses in arranged marriages would automatically be jealous of their partner's lovers. Why? Once you leave your family and marry into another your in that family for life. You are devoted to them, and they take care of you. They wanted you for a reason. Right?

Work Ethic. I would expect to see more of this in the merchant class. After all, the average commoner is not going to rise above his station, and the average noble should expect laziness and avoidance of as much work as possible.

Nurturing and child rearing

In a society, which is neither matriarchal nor patriarchal who raises the babies? Whoever wants to? Who ever is stuck with it? Whoever sticks around? The elderly? Do they raise themselves?

Obviously, the above reflects my opinions and suggestions. But, they are only that. Opinions and suggestions. I would not go as far as saying they reflect the game world as is. Does anyone else think about this stuff? What sort of stuff do you think about?

[Jacques]

Nurturing and child rearing

In a society, which is neither matriarchal nor patriarchal who raises the babies? Whoever wants to? Who ever is stuck with it? Whoever sticks around? The elderly? Do they raise themselves?

Only going to briefly touch on this. Very young children more or less HAVE to be raised by the mother, except in rare circumstances. The issue is lactation, and wet-nurses are somewhat expensive. No conveinence store to run out at 3am for formula, either.  :twisted: After that, sky's the limit, I'd guess.

[Barzalene]

It's painfully obvious that I really am the only freak thinking about this stuff. I'm a little embarrassed.

Typically in Low-Tech civilizations, like Zalanthas is, children of the non-wealthy are not just to have children. They take part in the burden of the family, and usually stay close until marriage. They dont like move out to have a home of their own, alone. They stay to help the family until they get married, at which time they start their own family.

I think children in Zalanthas are alot tougher then normal, as they have to be. You cant sit in front of a tv and watch cartoons all day. You have to pull your weight in the family.

Anyways... thats my quick opinion.

[Bestatte]

I don't think it's common for commoners to get married at all, so kids staying at home til marriage, I think, would not be the usual thing.

You see lots of children PCs, not too few children NPCs, all walking around living on their own. It's my guess that many parental types just plain don't live long enough to rear a child past the walking/talking phase.

This addresses the marriage thing as well as who raises the kids. I'm guessing, again, that commoners might form monogamous relationships, however both parties understand that yeah - I'm with only you now, but you're probably gonna die soon so I'm gonna line up the next lover so I don't end up alone when that happens.

I think we'd find more of that scenario than too much of the mushy smoochy type of relationship. People of Zanthalas would, in my view, be pretty pragmatic about such things. Not machines without feelings, but with the understanding that life is fleeting at best, and you need to keep your options open because whatver you're doing now could change in a heartbeat.

So who -does- bring up these toddlers til they're old enough to fend for themselves? Well obviously -some- woman who's lactating would get them to the toddler stage. Maybe not mom, maybe auntie, or a neighbor, or the merchant's housekeeper, or if they're rich enough, the wet-nurse. Heck - it could even be something they raise escru for. I've heard real life stories about newborns being raised on raw sheep's milk and the kids grow up none the worse for it.

Everyone is out for themselves in Zanthalas, but there still is a core sense of community, and so I'd guess that the neighbors, for better or worse, would bring up the toddler if the natural parents are dead/lost/zombified/whatever. As long as they feel the child is capable of growing up to contribute to the tasks, it would probably be a sound investment.

[aeshyw]

To say that most people assume that their mates will die soon is looking a bit too much at the higher risk professions that most PCs play, rather then the VNPC population, imho.

Most people (that do have jobs) have boring jobs.  They are bakers and maids and concubines and brick layers and...etc.  Want a long lived PC? Try playing a maid at the Trader's Inn and do nothing but emote cleaning all day long every day....

That said, I think that monogamy would be fairly rare.  When a child is born there are several options available, not the least of which might be the rental of a wet nurse slave.  Considering that the cost of an ugly, stupid woman capable of bearing children might be minimal, someone could open a thriving business renting out wet nurses to needy couples.

I also think something overlooked might be that the concubine/rich person relationship might be much more prevelent then practiced in the PC population.  Is it so hard to imagine the meat house worker daydreaming as he chops - 'Someday I'll make foreman and then I'm getting me that whore Stella and making her my concubine'. Or even the female militia sergeant keeping a few strapping bucks in her home?

Throw in the tribal and racial variances and I think it would be hard to say 'most relationships are like ...' at all.  What I personally find inappropriate is when people bring their western prejudices into the game and take positions of moral superiority based on tenets that just don't exist in Zalanthian society.

[Angela Christine]

So who -does- bring up these toddlers til they're old enough to fend for themselves? Well obviously -some- woman who's lactating would get them to the toddler stage.

Ahem.  http://freebirth.com/milkmen.htm

AC

[Jacques]

So all we need is the Zalanthan equivalent of a breast pump and about five IC weeks and the men could also work for the wet nurse company! Woo! I see a new character idea forming!  :wink:

Nah. Just kidding. Though that would be one of the "rare circumstances" I talked about. Kinda funny though, considering all the men I know who have large... well, I *GUESS* they're breasts.  :twisted:

So do I dare ask WHERE and WHY you came across that one, AC? Hmm... maybe not.  :shock:

[crymerci]

The following is all IMO, and relates mostly to the commoner class:

-Marriage would be rare, I agree.  Most people would form partnerships (of two or however many people) until they decided to move on, either from disagreements or because they thought something else looked better. In some cases these partnerships would last a lifetime, in other cases, a month.

-Family as a concept would be defined differently.  Rather than a family unit being a couple and their children, family would be aunts, uncles, cousins, grandparents, neighbors, and of course the average kid might have multiple mothers or fathers.  As far as parental breakups...I doubt there's much stigma in leaving a child behind as long as someone's there to provide, so it would depend on their level of attachment to the child.

-As such, I don't think any child is going to be entirely raising themselves (except in the case of true orphans with no family), though I do agree that a high degree of self-sufficiency would be trained into them from a young age.  However, I do think that as infants and toddlers, they're going to be dependent on their mother or another nursing female in their family. (Yeah, female.  Though sometimes I think that it would be fascinating to see AC's entire link library.)

-As far as jealousy in relationships, I don't think this is a societal issue (though society greatly affects how jealousy is or is not displayed).  Some people are jealous of almost anything, some people aren't jealous of anything, and most people fall somewhere in between.  Jealousy doesn't have to be fatal; plenty of people get a little jealous, recognize it, deal with it, and it doesn't become an issue.  Or, you know, repress it and let it fester until it boils over and they kill someone.  Which might be interesting.

-And for the work ethic thing that Barzalene brought up, again I don't necessarily believe this is a societal issue.  Some people are just lazy or industrious, regardless of reward or punishment, and most people fall in the middle.  Sometimes you can temporarily spur someone to greater effort through some incentive, but generally that's not a long-term effect.

[Cuusardo]

Love on Zalanthas is a many-splintered thing.

I won't say more, because if I gave details I would be giving away too much IC info.  

[My 2 sids]

Just a quick note for discussion.  I'll try posting more later.

Marrage - Remember people here would not generally be trustworthy.  Therefore I would doupt highly they would just go for one night stands.  What I would see would be groups (polygamy, men or woman in charge more more than one man or woman) would make sense.  These groups would pool resources and be tight knit enough to trust each other.  Also, I would think just about anyone with money and/or power would do arranged marrages.

Children - People would prob. have many children.  (for the same reasion many people of past generations would)  Many children would keep population up and could contribute to money for the family.  Now one thing that could happen might be a lot of apprenticeships (as in our own past) and rented help/page.    The other thing I could see is keeping the children until they prove they can handle themselves.    The more money/powerful families might keep children longer, for the same reasion people keep pets.  The status.  They can -afford- it.  Not only that, even if you are only an independent merchent, you would still want that child to have a good light on -your- name.

Children (prob accepted more as 'little people' in this type society) Could get away with more and be -thought- of as a bit less knowldegeable than adults... As long as -someone- took responciblity for them.  If they don't have one... take em as slaves.  :twisted:   Make a coin off of them, apprenticships often pay.

[Frog Fairy]

Why are so many arguing that marriage would be rare?
Most human cultures, since human beings began owning stuff (i.e. stopped being hunting nomads) have had rules and/or ceremonies to ensure who sires the off-spring. People in Zalanthas are poor, but that means that the few belongings that most do have, are all the more important to pass on.

If you mean marriage as in exchanging rings before a templar or other official, then I also would guess that rare. But nearly all real world cultures have their own maritual ceremonies, so why not on Zalanthas?
The importance about marriage-bonding is that it's recognized by the community. With a near non-existant government body, as in most of Zalanthas, my guess is that there'd be as many different bonding/marriage ceremonies as there are cultures. And that they're near-all "unofficial".

If the cultures of Zalanthas are not all monogamous, is something it'd be fun to have in the documentation. I have, perhaps wrongly, presumed mongamy as the default where not otherwise stated.

[Bestatte]

I kinda prefer the current "assumed" monogamous relationships that occur in Armageddon.

Not including nobles and the merchant house family members and the templarate, but just for the general city population of commoner human types.

You meet someone and there's a mutual attraction, and neither of you are particularly interested in looking for someone else, so therefore you -are- a couple by definition, until "whatever" happens and you part ways or one of you dies.

There is no need for jealousy in this setup, because neither of you are interested in anyone else's attentions anyway. So all the flirting and subtle innuendo and heck - even the occasional intimacy with someone else becomes insignificant.

There would always be the exception, where promises are made in the relationship not to venture outside of it. But promises are easily broken, especially when a missing partner is often the result of a dead partner. You assume they're dead, you mourn for a time, you move on with your life, and the partner returns from an OOC holiday of the player or just lousy scheduling between the two players to get together in game, or some IC situation which requires one of the pair to be unavailable. What do you do then? Get all upset because the other person so inconveniently showed up again? Nah...just go back to business as usual, with your "true love," and think nothing of your so-called "indiscretions."

In a world where life is fleeting, "life-long" commitments are devaluated significantly. A promise to be true to your love "til death do us part" might just mean "til tomorrow." So what's the value in such a promise? I don't think there is any.

And that's why I like how it is now.

[chinwa]

So who -does- bring up these toddlers til they're old enough to fend for themselves? Well obviously -some- woman who's lactating would get them to the toddler stage.

Who says that Zalanthan children are reared on milk? They're not earth human's biological clones. The harsh world has made for harsh biology. Perhaps they're born with teeth.

[chinwa]

-Marriage would be rare, I agree.  Most people would form partnerships (of two or however many people) until they decided to move on, either from disagreements or because they thought something else looked better. In some cases these partnerships would last a lifetime, in other cases, a month.

There is one thing that I have always used to explain non-noble/merchant marriage in Zalanthas. Trends. The lower class is always trying to imitate the higher class. It's a model seen in history time and time and time again. However, most things are simply, financially, out of the question for he lower class folk. They can't afford big homes or huge meals with wine or silks. One thing they can imitate, however, that doesn't cost a sid... marriage.

"Oh, look at us, we're married just like a noble couple! Won't we be the talk amongst our friends."

And even more, some families may even be able to scrape up enough coin to bribe a templar or noble into conducting the ceremony to add that "official" aire. Now wouldn't -that- impress their friends?