Discussion for Change to Storm/Darkness navigation

[Lizzie]

I checked that thread - my opinion hasn't changed. Giving -everyone- something that has always been the exclusive domain of one class, diminishes the "awesomeness" of that one class, somewhat. I would've liked to see it granted to certain other groups (reading back on that thread, I agree with myself about desert elves getting it, that's just logical), and whirans and rukkians to some extent (they -are- the masters of wind and sand, respectively) - or maybe if a rukkian and a whiran travel together, it would cause a symbiosis and they'd both magickally be capable of maneuvering effortlessly - until/unless they are seperated during the trip (or if they get into combat)...something like that would be pretty neat.

[X-D]

Looks back at other thread...Yup, I hated it there too.

And to add, Lizzie has the right of it. Though I call it a nerf, If you raise the utility of all classes cept for one then you lower the utility of the one, This is a nerf. But You all actually went one farther and made it so the one cannot even be perfect as they had been.

Why don't you even the field again and toss Disarm, Peek, Backstab and Cavilish onto subguilds too?

[janeshephard]

No only does a ranger lose their sense of direction -quite- often, they also cannot lead anyone through storms anymore - which I thought was one of the main perks, main differences between rangers and warriors.  With the correct choices in guild and subguild it would seem that ranger class is nearly obsolete right now.

I agree with Atanna. I don't take issue with this skill going to other subguilds but rangers should just have the innate ability. No need to nerf rangers.

[Boggis]

But it doesn't give the skill to everyone and all classes - only to certain subguilds.

And as I understand it with a hardly any practice and being properly equipped to travel in bad weather a ranger will be perfectly fine. A select few other subguilds with their lower skill caps will probably be able to get up to pretty good over time.

I don't see the problem and like the change.

[hyzhenhok]

But it doesn't give the skill to everyone and all classes - only to certain subguilds.

[X-D]

Direction sense is a skill that allows you to keep going the way you intend even in blinding storms and complete darkness. Everyone has some small ability to do this intrinsically, but there are some who excel at it above others.

The help files say otherwise.

[hyzhenhok]

Direction sense is a skill that allows you to keep going the way you intend even in blinding storms and complete darkness. Everyone has some small ability to do this intrinsically, but there are some who excel at it above others.

The help files say otherwise.

Just like everyone can attempt to forage, attempt to kick, attempt to pick a lock, etc. Doesn't mean they actually have the skill itself. Besides, this is hardly a change: non-rangers always had a chance to not stumble around in a tremendous sandstorm, if they got lucky.

[RogueGunslinger]

Personally thought this should have been done to wilderness quit first, but alright. I'm digging the change a lot.

[X-D]

You cannot attempt to pick a lock...No matter what the echo is. If you do not have the skill.

But hey, lets go along with that, so it only gives it to like 4 subs. Let us be fair on the matter, Give 4 subs Cav and 4 subs Disarm and 4 subs Backstab and 4 subs Peek.

Oh hell, Lets just make up a bunch more subs and spread all possible skills over them.

Then every guild will be equally useless.

[Krath]

Looks back at other thread...Yup, I hated it there too.

And to add, Lizzie has the right of it. Though I call it a nerf, If you raise the utility of all classes cept for one then you lower the utility of the one, This is a nerf. But You all actually went one farther and made it so the one cannot even be perfect as they had been.

Why don't you even the field again and toss Disarm, Peek, Backstab and Cavilish onto subguilds too?

This.

[RogueGunslinger]

This sort of a change is going in the right direction. I think the harder it is for people to know what class you are the better. I also agree with X-D that this should be done to other skills that are inherent to your main guild too. Like bash/wilderness quit/peek.

[A20B]

Are we going to get a City and an Outdoor version of this skill?

Rangers get both...they have the innate ability to know where they are at all times.

Assassins, Pickpockets, and Burglars have the City version pretty high...or it branches from one of the sneaky skills(?).  Part of their job would be knowing where they are in the city and being able to move around without having to look.

Caravan Guides, Foresters, Hunters, Nomads, Rebels, get the Outdoor version...don't think I need to explain...
Maybe Rebels would also get a low City-version cap...part of "guerrilla war" is hit in run in the dark (possibly) in cities, right?

Thieves get City version...same reason as Assassins and Pickpockets above...

House Servants get City version for piloting their master's guests home in the wagon.

Just a few ideas, if this skill does get two versions...

[Twilight]

I really wish we had a link to when skin was changed from an intrinsic ability (perfect for rangers, blah for several other guilds) to a skill.  Unfortunately, I think that change happened while we were still on the old boards?

I like the change.  I would have chosen a different subguild with my current character if it had been in when I created her/him/it.  Sometimes you create a character who does know more IC'ly about the wastes than 95% of the ranger guild characters you come across (waste running DE merchant, non-city based chars, gith raiders).  It was always annoying not to be able to reflect that with getting around when you weren't a ranger.

This is a shift that I think is a long time coming.  It is a change from "Rangers are the masters of the wastes" to "Rangers have the skillset to become masters of the wastes" while at the same time letting other guilds come closer becoming quasi-masters, at least.  Which is good, being able to build out skillsets to target those situations or roles you want to be good at.

Edited to add:  I am all for turning most all intrinsic abilities I can think of into skills.  Note that things like bash, peek, disarm etc. are not intrinsic abilities.  They are skills.

[Boggis]

You cannot attempt to pick a lock...No matter what the echo is. If you do not have the skill.

Ok, but everybody has some ability with forage. I think we've all seen the difference between the class who excels with the skill and somebody with a low cap. Now, we don't know what a small intrinsic level of ability means exactly but I'd wager that it's pretty low indeed. Chances are you'd end up going the right way as often just from random luck as opposed to using the skill itself. Rangers will be fine. A few subguilds will be able to build up to pretty good. Everybody else is still more or less screwed in storms and would greatly appreciate a ranger leading them along.

[LauraMars]

A city version would be pretty pointless.

[musashi]

I think he meant "just for when it's dark" and not for sandstorms when talking about a city version.

[Dan]

I can definately dig this change. Especially since it will help get rid of guild sniffing and unrealistic acts. IE: "Hey new recruit, you can guide us without fail through the Red Desert."

Right, sure I can...

This isn't a nerf to me, rather a fix to something I have considered broken since storms started to throw -everyone- but rangers off course. That was a major boost to the ranger class. This is a minor downgrade to an ability they will eventually perform perfectly anyway with time.

Rangers are still the wilderness experts. As with every change like this we are experiencing a knee-jerk reaction, give it a little time people.

[hyzhenhok]

You cannot attempt to pick a lock...No matter what the echo is. If you do not have the skill.

But hey, lets go along with that, so it only gives it to like 4 subs. Let us be fair on the matter, Give 4 subs Cav and 4 subs Disarm and 4 subs Backstab and 4 subs Peek.

Oh hell, Lets just make up a bunch more subs and spread all possible skills over them.

Then every guild will be equally useless.

What, now we're arguing that ranger sense was so core and unique to the ranger class that it is equivalent to disarm and cavilish? Backstab and peek are not unique to a single class. I always thought the ranger's schtick was a) jack-of-all-trades power in a huge slew of different skills with a scope unparalleled by any other class b) desert survival and c) mounts. Sure, your desert survival monopoly has lost a little bit of uniqueness, but you're seriously exaggerating the "nerf" to rangers.

This change only increases the possibilities of the game, and it can't be bad. And I am really digging the fact that my character is not utterly and unrealistically lost in darkness anymore; I assume navigating a tremendous sandstorm is much more difficult.

[flurry]

I have two thoughts on this.

First, I am happy with the general idea of the change. I never liked the whole dichotomy of characters being either perfect or terrible in storms. Some in-between is a good thing, and I think this provides that.

My second comment (which, I'll add, comes before I've had an opportunity to experience the change) is that I hope that characters without the skill won't find that they are now significantly worse at getting around than ever before. Storm navigation problems are great, but they also present unfortunate playability issues sometimes (particularly because the classes that need to find quit rooms to log out may have the hardest time reaching them when a storm arises).

Overall, I think this is good change. Thanks!

[spawnloser]

In my experience yesterday (and I will admit that I haven't played during a storm since the tweaking and this morning's reboot), flurry, other characters without the skill did see their ability to get through storms worsen.

[X-D]

a) jack-of-all-trades power in a huge slew of different skills with a scope unparalleled by any other class

First, at least two other classes fit that as well. One of them was arguably more powerful already, and can now get at least 2 ranger percs with 1 subguild.

Second, The only real defense to many skills is to have the skill itself. This includes Storm/darkness nav. Which is why I named the skills I did. Disarm is a powerful warrior skill, the only real defense against it is having the skill, passing the skill out to subs would reduce the utility of the warrior class as a whole and be equal to giving out Storm nav. The same applies to Peek. Backstab is only on stealthy city classes, lets give it to non-stealthy and wilderness classes. Cav, Well Merchants don't have much that people cannot already get so I picked that as the last remaining defining item they do get.

My point is, Rangers are the ones that keep losing uniqueness, I don't see why the other guilds are not as well.

[EldritchOrigins]

A great change.  Playing someone that's had major difficulties with navigating storms, I think it's great to allow this ability through sub-guilds.

As for the cheapening of the ranger guild, I think people are overreacting.  Rangers still have all of the outdoor abilities that still keep them ahead of any other guild/subguild combo in making them the masters of the outdoors.  Anyone that would attempt to be a ranger with some similar guild/subguild combo would only be a cheap imitation.

As for storm navigation being more difficult than before, I can say it was pretty bad before, I don't know if it could be any worse.  When remembering consider that it is weather based and weather is more than just sand (visibility), there is also wind to be considered.

[flurry]

In my experience yesterday (and I will admit that I haven't played during a storm since the tweaking and this morning's reboot), flurry, other characters without the skill did see their ability to get through storms worsen.

I hope daytime city navigation doesn't remain as difficult as it seems to be now.

I appreciate the staff efforts on this so far, though.

edit: reworded

[Thunkkin]

1) Does this change add more realism to the game?  Yes.
2) Does this change "make sense?"  Yes.
3) Does this change diminish or increase the variety of roles and options available to characters?  Increase.

Sounds like a win to me.

Finally, should more skills be spread out over more guilds and subguilds?  Sounds great to me.  

Edit:  Would I like to see more of the warrior skillset available to other guilds?  HELL YES.

[jcarter]

Rangers still have their niche and a slew of abilities that give them more utility and flexibility than warriors. Players are also given more options and flexibility regarding the creation of outdoorsy and hunter characters. This is a small change, and it's foolish to assume that this change is going to somehow turn the game around and completely mix everything up.

My point is, Rangers are the ones that keep losing uniqueness, I don't see why the other guilds are not as well.

Yes you do, but you're trying to bait people into arguments. If you actually wanted a valid discussion, you could open up a new thread for why you believe backstab should be given to four sub-guilds instead of derailing the "Discussion for Change to Storm/Darkness navigation" thread.

Comparisons between this thread and an older thread on a very similar subject are neat to see.

Nyr, you are now my favorite imm.

Editted out weird formatting.