Poll: is the Red's Retreat socially above the gemmed?

[Salt Merchant]

It's been suggested that the Red's Retreat is socially above the gemmed. What do the players think?

[Gimfalisette]

It depends on the status of the gemmer, just like it would depend on the status of any commoner. If the gemmer is basically a grebber with few social connections and no connection to the templarate/nobility, then perhaps the Gaj is a more reasonable place for them to hang out. If the gemmer is well-known to have connections to the templarate or House Oash and is held in good regard by them, and able to afford decent clothing, then Red's makes complete sense.

Gemmed are just commoners, after all. They are not socially lower than other commoners, unless there is some reason they are lower--such as being from the 'rinth, being a breed or an elf, etc.

[Ghost]

Being a half burned wreckage as it is, I highly doubt it is above anything

[A Dry, Quiet War]

Being a half burned wreckage as it is, I highly doubt it is above anything

It was a melting pot even when it was "nice."  Mages, northerners, elves, northern elves.  Even bards.

[Gimfalisette]

I really would like to see more PCs using Red's. It's such a nice middle ground, where almost all of the PCs in the city can reasonably hang out.

[Cutthroat]

Depends on ... well, everything. Same could really be said for almost any person going to any tavern in any city anywhere, if you were asking if person X was too socially low to be going to Tavern Y.

I realize that's largely not answering the question but I don't think it is a question that has a yes or no answer.

[spawnloser]

I'm not going to comment too much on the Red's current state, but there is indeed a mix of good and crappy there.  It's a good middle ground, but since it got rebuilt, again, my experience is that it isn't used as much as it could/should.  I think people got in the habit of only using the Gaj or Trader's.

[A Dry, Quiet War]

It's a good middle ground, but since it got rebuilt, again, my experience is that it isn't used as much as it could/should.  I think people got in the habit of only using the Gaj or Trader's.

It's because of the incomplete renovation.  When I'm playing the sort of character who would favor the Red's over the Gaj, that bothers.

[Ghost]

Well, when it gets completed, unless it is going to take a turn and be something else as how it was before, it will still not be above anything.

Before, it was run by a northerner and had elves and halfies in it.  It could not be above anyone before, doubtful it can be above anyone now.  Unless the particular individual pissed off a templar/noble who kicked them out of the place indefinitely, they can hang out in the Red's without feeling it is above them in anyway.

[IAmJacksOpinion]

Agreed, Spawnloser.

Back in the day the Bards Barrel (now the Red's Retreat for teh uber n00bz out there) was the bar you went to. The Gaj was this crappy dive bar for Bynners and rinthi's to get together in and fight. It used to be somewhat uncommon to see a GMH merchant, or a noble's aide in the Gaj. I can remember playing a Wyvern and having my Lieutenant specifically ban us from going to the Gaj because it was shitty, and we always got into fights there - ultimately embarrassing the House.

Being a half burned wreckage as it is, I highly doubt it is above anything

Unfortunately, this is the state of things now. Why they never rebuilt the upstairs is beyond me. I have a lot of fond memories in the Barrel, from my assassin who got his ass kicked by a unit of Bynners because they bet him hundreds of coins he couldn't hit 3 kings in a row (he did), numerous games of spice run, and of course fucking/getting subdue-released off the balcony. (Oof!) But yeah, since it was rebuilt, I haven't seen more than 3 PCs actively using the bar at any one time. Sad.

I really would like to see more PCs using Red's. It's such a nice middle ground, where almost all of the PCs in the city can reasonably hang out.

Agreed. And it's in a primo spot now, so when the snooty rich get sick of smelling the rest of us, they can just slink 3 screens over to the Azure Dragon.

[RogueGunslinger]

I'd like to see Reds be the starting location.

[A Dry, Quiet War]

Magickers are generally easily avoided, even in Allanak, if you aren't at the scumhole bar which they'd rightfully be at. Sure, I've had my share of mages go to Red's, but never, EVER to hang out downstairs in the bar. More like upstairs, out of general sight, for semi-private conversation.

With respect to Amanda, I strongly disagree.  Magickers are scum, but they're the wrong sort of scum for the Gaj.  If we had a middle class, they would be middle-class scum.

IRS agents are scum.  Bikers are scum.  IRS agents do not hang out at the biker bar.

[RogueGunslinger]

Err. I also believe that Red's is above common gemmers, yes. Anyone not working for the templarate or a GMH should probably stick to the Gaj or their quarter. And don't be surprised if people at even the Gaj acted scared of you, or surprised to see you.

[Pale Horse]

I've often thought that having a "gemmers only" bar in the gemmer quarter would be an excellent thought and idea and have seen it brought up a number of times both IG and on the GDB.

Unfortunately, pressure from both those sources (IG and OOC) have put a stop to it each time it's been attempted.  Even a casual meeting place IG for the general PC population of the Elementalists' Quarter was eventually broken up.  IC reasons behind it, but after so many times it does sort of make one think that there's something or someone out there that's determined to make being a gemmed as isolationist as possible..even within the part of the city where they're "teeming."

[a strange shadow]

I liked it when there were (essentially) only two bars in Allanak.

As for the original question, I don't think so, but as always, it depends on the gemmed in question.

(I hate the word 'gemmer'.)

[hyzhenhok]

I don't think there's a "class" distinction in terms of gemmers when it comes to the different bars. Gemmers in the Gaj make people uncomfortable, and might even make them leave. Gemmers in the Red's Retreat make people uncomfortable, and might even make them leave. Class has nothing to do with it.

I've always thought the tavern keepers should be scripted to make things uncomfortable for the gemmers, though. After all, they might be scaring off other customers. Jack up the prices for gemmers, make them sit at the shitty table in the corner and stay away from the bar, stuff like that. Gemmers should be allowed to hang out in taverns, but they shouldn't just be one of the many patrons sitting at the bar, having a good time. The other patrons shouldn't allow it, and the establishment owners shouldn't allow it.

[Gimfalisette]

I've always thought the tavern keepers should be scripted to make things uncomfortable for the gemmers, though. After all, they might be scaring off other customers. Jack up the prices for gemmers, make them sit at the shitty table in the corner and stay away from the bar, stuff like that. Gemmers should be allowed to hang out in taverns, but they shouldn't just be one of the many patrons sitting at the bar, having a good time. The other patrons shouldn't allow it, and the establishment owners shouldn't allow it.

Ugh. No. Seriously...no. It's already plenty "uncomfortable" enough for gemmed to be in public anywhere within Allanak. Having played a gemmer, having played around gemmers a lot over the last 3 years, there is no need for further reinforcement to the current environment. Gemmed is about the most socially-isolated role one can play within a city.

[WWYD]

I was typing up a post, but Gimf put it way better then I could have. It's seriously bad enough that some people are literally willing to deny you interaction (even the sort that involves shunning) because of what you wear on your throat location -- it doesn't need to get worse. The last time I played a gemmer, my only saving grace for interaction, inside Allanak, was the fact I was playing a Vivaduan, and most people passing through the elementalist's quarter would see me immediately and jump at the chance. To further exclude magickers on a coded level is kind of yuck.

[hyzhenhok]

I've always thought the tavern keepers should be scripted to make things uncomfortable for the gemmers, though. After all, they might be scaring off other customers. Jack up the prices for gemmers, make them sit at the shitty table in the corner and stay away from the bar, stuff like that. Gemmers should be allowed to hang out in taverns, but they shouldn't just be one of the many patrons sitting at the bar, having a good time. The other patrons shouldn't allow it, and the establishment owners shouldn't allow it.

Ugh. No. Seriously...no. It's already plenty "uncomfortable" enough for gemmed to be in public anywhere within Allanak. Having played a gemmer, having played around gemmers a lot over the last 3 years, there is no need for further reinforcement to the current environment. Gemmed is about the most socially-isolated role one can play within a city.

As they should be. Magickers are karma roles for a reason. I don't think we should accept that gemmers are more tolerated than they ICly should be just because Lonely McGemmer wants some interaction.

I was typing up a post, but Gimf put it way better then I could have. It's seriously bad enough that some people are literally willing to deny you interaction (even the sort that involves shunning) because of what you wear on your throat location -- it doesn't need to get worse. The last time I played a gemmer, my only saving grace for interaction, inside Allanak, was the fact I was playing a Vivaduan, and most people passing through the elementalist's quarter would see me immediately.

Playing a gemmed magicker is completely voluntary. If you don't like the stigma that comes with the role, don't play it.

[RogueGunslinger]

I don't think there's a "class" distinction in terms of gemmers when it comes to the different bars. Gemmers in the Gaj make people uncomfortable, and might even make them leave. Gemmers in the Red's Retreat make people uncomfortable, and might even make them leave. Class has nothing to do with it.

I've always thought the tavern keepers should be scripted to make things uncomfortable for the gemmers, though. After all, they might be scaring off other customers. Jack up the prices for gemmers, make them sit at the shitty table in the corner and stay away from the bar, stuff like that. Gemmers should be allowed to hang out in taverns, but they shouldn't just be one of the many patrons sitting at the bar, having a good time. The other patrons shouldn't allow it, and the establishment owners shouldn't allow it.

I love this idea. The idea of code supporting the documentation in general is always good. I don't think any of the suggested ideas would make things more isolated for gemmers. It'd just add more flavor when playing them.

/opinion

[Gimfalisette]

Gemmed is about the most socially-isolated role one can play within a city.

As they should be. Magickers are karma roles for a reason.

Completely faulty logic. Magickers are not karma roles because of the social isolation. Magickers are karma roles because they are codedly powerful. The fact that gemmed are automatically so socially-isolated is a large part of the reason why players would prefer to play hidden or rogue mages.

Playing a gemmed magicker is completely voluntary. If you don't like the stigma that comes with the role, don't play it.

Unhelpful, and uncognizant of the true systems problems which lead to the unpalatability of the gemmed role.

[Marc]

Gemmed is about the most socially-isolated role one can play within a city.

As they should be. Magickers are karma roles for a reason.

Completely faulty logic. Magickers are not karma roles because of the social isolation. Magickers are karma roles because they are codedly powerful.

I can't say I agree Gimf.  Magickers are karma roles both because they are codedly powerful AND because they have the social restrictions.  If you are playing a known magicker and being buddy buddy with everyone, you're doing it wrong (IMHO).  It might be IC for you to kiss ass with everyone so you get shunned less, but it's the players responsibility to help maintain a certain level of fear and distrust with magick. 

That's where, IMHO, the karma comes in.  Trust enough not to drop thermal nukes on a tavern for the lols and trust enough to maintain a realistic representation and help reinforce 'DOCUMENTED' stereotypes.

P.S. This is not to say gickers all need to play stereotypes, not at all.  But it is the players responsibility to play their magicker based on a world reacting to those stereotypes.

[Cutthroat]

I don't think restricting gemmers codedly makes sense. If a patron in a tavern feels uncomfortable, they'll learn to suck it up and deal with it if they don't have any position in society. An elf, a mutant or a 'rinther could make people uncomfortable too but would it really make sense to start kicking them out?

I say this because if a tavern doesn't have a bouncer or a guard, it's safe to assume that are all are welcomed (by the establishment owner) - and their money, too. As a gemmer, whether the unique company you find within the tavern reacts properly to your gem is entirely up to them, and up to various things you identify with other than being a gemmer.

[Gimfalisette]

If you are playing a known magicker and being buddy buddy with everyone, you're doing it wrong (IMHO).  It might be IC for you to kiss ass with everyone so you get shunned less, but it's the players responsibility to help maintain a certain level of fear and distrust with magick.

Please do not twist what I have said to make it sound like I am advocating for magickers "being buddy buddy with everyone." That is not what I said, and it is not what I would say. In fact, there are potential options along the roleplay continuum other than "complete social outcast" or "everyone's favorite fuckbuddy."

Currently, however, the game environment does not lend itself to those other options being played by gemmed. I would like to see more subtlety and less stupidity in interplay between mundanes and magickers, and that is the responsibility of each player, regardless of their PC's guild.

[jcarter]

The Retreat comes across as the kind of place that would be acceptable for the middle-range of people. Independent commoners that are well off for themselves, employees of merchant houses, definitely employees of noble houses, and so on. Your scum of the street 'Rinthi probably wouldn't be messing around in there, as the area itself seems to be under more Militia/templarate scrutiny. I don't think it would be necessarily a place where nobility would be lounging around, but there's plenty of valid reasons they could have to sit there for a bit, such as needing to keep an eye out for someone to hire and so forth.

Do gemmers belong? It depends on if they fit into one of the categories above. If it's a well-mannered one, then probably. If it's one that's constantly threatening to curse everyone and their family, then no.

I can't say I agree Gimf.  Magickers are karma roles both because they are codedly powerful AND because they have the social restrictions.  If you are playing a known magicker and being buddy buddy with everyone, you're doing it wrong (IMHO).  It might be IC for you to kiss ass with everyone so you get shunned less, but it's the players responsibility to help maintain a certain level of fear and distrust with magick.

That's where, IMHO, the karma comes in.  Trust enough not to drop thermal nukes on a tavern for the lols and trust enough to maintain a realistic representation and help reinforce 'DOCUMENTED' stereotypes.

P.S. This is not to say gickers all need to play stereotypes, not at all.  But it is the players responsibility to play their magicker based on a world reacting to those stereotypes.

I agree with some parts and disagree with some parts. I think this would be better off being discussed in a separate thread though, or one that's existing now.