Your thoughts and opinions on the current Karama roles.

[Pale Horse]

Inspired by mansa's thread about a change to the Karma system, I wanted to open a discussion concerning the karma roles without derailing the it.  I'm well aware that this could very easily degenerate into a "magicker hate" or "magicker love" thread, so I ask at the start that we please refrain from snapping at one another.  This is not a thread devoted to magickers in specific though we all know they make up the majority of the karma restricted options.  Wait 5 minutes before posting a heated reply and think of how you could word it to diffuse your emotions instead of enhance them.

Having said that, now on to the meat of the thread.

What are your thoughts and opinions about the current karma roles?  Are they filled with too many magicker guilds?  Should some more mundane ones be available?  How about extra races from the past being brought back?  Do you see them as too easy to "skill up?"  Are they too restrictive, thus leading a player into doing more "skill grinding" than they would normally do with a less restrictive position?  Are roles such as the ones we have seen as too powerful or too influential for the limited player base and major population areas we have IG?

Please keep in mind that this is a discussion about how things are now and not in the past or the future.

[deviant storm]

I think for the most part that the karma options are fine, for the game we have now. We have a wealth of mundane possibilities. We have some magicker possibilities. We have some different races.

I'm pleased that those without a lot of karma can play quite a lot of roles: Assassin, warrior, merchant, ranger, thief, etc. They can be tweaked with subguilds, making them flexible to fit a good number of concepts or roles. I like that the karma options come with more guidelines. I feel that if you've got the karma, you should be able to find a concept that still allows your character to play within the documented guidelines for your race/element/whatever.

Still, I'm looking forward to seeing whatever options Arm2 will give us. I'm pretty thrilled with the idea of being able to mix guilds so that my character might conform more fully to its original concept.

[jhunter]

What are your thoughts and opinions about the current karma roles? I think it's set up pretty well the way it is overall.

Are they filled with too many magicker guilds? I don't think there are too many magicker guilds. But there should be more special races available and other mundane classes.

Should some more mundane ones be available? Yes.

How about extra races from the past being brought back? Gith and mantis especially.

Do you see them as too easy to "skill up?" No. I think it's appropriate. I played them before and after they were changed and it was horribly unrealistic before. Magicker classes needed something to counteract them being swatted like kankflies by any mundane they came across. They still can be, but for a shorter period of time than before. As for them progressing too rapidly, some of that is player restraint. Most of mine have hardly branched any spells with the exception of one with really high wisdom. If anything, I think that non-magickal "skilling-up" should be -slightly- faster than it is currently.

Are they too restrictive, thus leading a player into doing more "skill grinding" than they would normally do with a less restrictive position? In some ways yes. When you can't at least be "part of the group" and you have to constantly worry about anyone/everyone trying to off you, it leaves you with alot of time on your hands to fill with little interaction.

Are roles such as the ones we have seen as too powerful or too influential for the limited player base and major population areas we have IG? Not in the least. I think nobles and templars are most of the time more powerful and influential than any mage. As it should be.

[AmandaGreathouse]

I'm going to keep this to magicker related specifically, since I've only played one d-elf with my karma, and no other karma races.

I feel that there are a nice array of them, but compared with other choices of things to use karma on, it does seem that there are perhaps a few too many guilds of magicker, or not enough races or other options. I do think that certain things like, say, letting people make 'advanced' mundanes, or perhaps allowing people to add skills to them to a small degree (Like perhaps 1 skill/point of karma on account) would help people to have more choices and make it less likely that the player is going to have so much interest in magickers.

Okay, with regards to magickers, no, I don't think their progression should be slowed. First of all, they already have major restrictions in place (specifically relating to gemmed mages) which often keep them from leaving their temple for 30 minutes to an hour, easily. Secondly, people hunt them down and kill them. Yes, blah blah Zalanthas blah blah, mage killing blah blah. Before you put up those reasons why it's perfectly IC for your mundane pc to randomly hunt down mages for fun, please keep in mind the multiple times which it's been said by staff that you should be doing that. Which makes your points about it being IC of them to do out and attempt to slay a telekinetic, insane mek with a flint dagger into a moot point. So what if the mek killed your parents or buttraped you. You didn't die, and you'd have to be crazy as hell to try and hunt it down. Then there are other restrictions which also apply to mages. Most notably, social ones. Personally, I'd like to see more people react with the FEAR of magick than knowing they can two-hit kill a mage and deciding to just talk shit, or else ignoring that they're an unholy, gut-shrivelling, baby-eating, soul-stealing, sterile-making abomination to pal around with them or fuck them or take advantage of them without 'some' form of downside. Mages are mages. They're already hated and feared. But there's a good chance that they also want a normal life. I maintain that it's more on the mundane pcs to keep up the fear/hate of them. They shouldn't have to act like psychotic killers to your face to make you do it. And you shouldn't laugh in their face if they do.

[This was neither for nor against them, but merely a series of observations.]

[IAmJacksOpinion]

It would be cool to have mantis, gith, or halfers on the list, but really I think that it would spread the player base out too much. (Probably one of the reasons why those races are only available through an occasional role call by the staff.)

That being said, I more or less like the way it is arranged now. If I had to say something needed changing, personally I'd probably swap drov and whiran in karma levels because I think Whirans are the most abusable magicker class by far. At least more-so than Drovian. (Though I've only had limited Drovian experience because they seem to be the least played magicker class.)

I would like to see a mundane class fall into the list, though I can't, for the life of me, think what it would be besides something like a "Super Death Knight Warrior Assassin Mechanized Ninja of Doom", which I do NOT want to see. And I can't think of any mundane class that should be moved up. But, yeah, it would be cool if Karma didn't specifically = magickurz.

[Reiloth]

My biggest problem with the karma system as it stands is: The higher the karma, the more scrutiny you get from Staff in what 'Skill Grinding' is.

It is very easy to 'grind' on a Ranger or Warriors, but you will get far more notice if you are 'grinding' on a Nilazi+. This is a bit counter intuitive, due to the fact that these roles are usually very isolated (Nilazi, Psion, and Sorcerer especially). An undiscovered psion has the most luck in involving themselves with RP. An undiscovered Nilazi, likewise, can find a pretty successful career playing with other players. A sorcerer will most likely (Though I know of a few examples in the past) not be integrated with society.

The problem comes with playing the class when they -are- discovered. Suddenly -- It has become one of the most isolated roles in the game. Not only that -- But more likely than not, you are being hunted by known civilization. The only thing you have to defend yourself are these abhorred skills and talents that differentiate you from the mundane. It's perfectly logical for such a character to get better at their talents, in a hope to survive longer.

So -- How does 'the grind' with lower karma classes compare to 'the grind' of higher karma classes? The simple truth is higher karma guilds' talents are far more dangerous and deadly than lower karma classes, with some exceptions (Backstab, Sap, Bash, to name a few). The Staff wants to keep closer track of the more deadly and dangerous classes, limiting how many are in the game world at a time. My beef comes with mixed communication with Staff. On one high karma character I played, I recieved nothing but praise and advice from staff during my play. On the character's demise, I recieved two very serious accusatory emails from high up staff, warning me that the way I played said character bordered on twinkdom. The communication I had with staff started from a very harsh, not completely informed and biased point of view. After sending some emails back and forth, we both got onto the same page, but after pointing out fine details in my play of the character, some apologizing for late night twinking, and general apologies from both sides for not communicating more during the character's play.

I suppose I wish the Staff did less snooping of the fine play of characters after the character's death through runlogs, and spent more time encouraging and advising the player during play of the higher karma classes.

[jstorrie]

As an aside, I find it a bit weird that the high-karma roles are so isolated. Amos Bynner may think that all nilazis, sorcerors, and psions should be put to death, but why should Lord Hardnose hunt down and slay every one that he hears about? Not every sorceror is the Plainsman. High-karma guys make for great minions.

[Clearsighted]

My biggest problem with the karma system as it stands is: The higher the karma, the more scrutiny you get from Staff in what 'Skill Grinding' is.

It is very easy to 'grind' on a Ranger or Warriors, but you will get far more notice if you are 'grinding' on a Nilazi+. This is a bit counter intuitive, due to the fact that these roles are usually very isolated (Nilazi, Psion, and Sorcerer especially). An undiscovered psion has the most luck in involving themselves with RP. An undiscovered Nilazi, likewise, can find a pretty successful career playing with other players. A sorcerer will most likely (Though I know of a few examples in the past) not be integrated with society.

The problem comes with playing the class when they -are- discovered. Suddenly -- It has become one of the most isolated roles in the game. Not only that -- But more likely than not, you are being hunted by known civilization. The only thing you have to defend yourself are these abhorred skills and talents that differentiate you from the mundane. It's perfectly logical for such a character to get better at their talents, in a hope to survive longer.

So -- How does 'the grind' with lower karma classes compare to 'the grind' of higher karma classes? The simple truth is higher karma guilds' talents are far more dangerous and deadly than lower karma classes, with some exceptions (Backstab, Sap, Bash, to name a few). The Staff wants to keep closer track of the more deadly and dangerous classes, limiting how many are in the game world at a time. My beef comes with mixed communication with Staff. On one high karma character I played, I recieved nothing but praise and advice from staff during my play. On the character's demise, I recieved two very serious accusatory emails from high up staff, warning me that the way I played said character bordered on twinkdom. The communication I had with staff started from a very harsh, not completely informed and biased point of view. After sending some emails back and forth, we both got onto the same page, but after pointing out fine details in my play of the character, some apologizing for late night twinking, and general apologies from both sides for not communicating more during the character's play.

I suppose I wish the Staff did less snooping of the fine play of characters after the character's death through runlogs, and spent more time encouraging and advising the player during play of the higher karma classes.

Yeah, A little bit of serious grinding on most(all?) karmic classes, and you're almost as deadly as you will ever be.

A little bit of serious grinding on a mundane is a week in the Byn.

[Fathi]

I think the karma system is perfectly functional and that it isn't hurting the game in its current form.

If I were allowed to tweak it based on nothing but my personal whims, there are some changes I would make.

Rather than opening new races or re-opening old ones, which would dilute the playerbase, I would allow karma players access to special backgrounds or circumstances of a mundane nature. The roles would have to be non-clan-affiliated to keep an influx of apps from potentially overwhelming clan staff and/or creating unfair imbalances, but I think I have some ideas that fit that criteria. Some examples:

• 2 karma gives you the option of adding "escaped slave" to your mundane guild, which would give you maybe a smattering of starter gear, brands/tattoos in a pregame room ala Tuluki citizens, and would force you to start in a place that wasn't Allanak or Tuluk. You would be crimflagged in your city of origin.
• 4 karma and you could play a normal guild with the option of subguild tattoo artist. You get a pair of tattooing needles with a script attached that can give tattoos to PCs, and once you're a mastercraft tattooist you can give people custom tattoos.
• 6 karma and you are allowed to play a generic slave. You will be auctioned off by the slaving authority of your chosen city-state, which keeps PC slaves from inundating clans in a lopsided fashion.

These are just random ideas and I didn't put much thought into the numbers, but I think that the current game's karma system (or Arm Reborn's equivalent) could really benefit from letting karma players choose mundane roles rather than just guilds. These roles aren't necessarily karma-only on account of giving a PC an unfair advantage--they can be as difficult to RP properly and as dependent on trustworthiness as playing a half-giant or an Elkrosian. I don't want a system where people can app directly into clans or directly into sponsored roles, but I think that Armageddon is robust enough that there could be mundane role options created that wouldn't unbalance things.

As it is, I think that the karma system does tend toward a lack of opportunities for players who want to enjoy their karma and still play human mundanes. I don't think there's anything wrong with things right now that needs immediate fixing, but more options couldn't ever hurt, as long as their impact on the world was considered and they were well thought out.

[evil_erdlu]

My opinions about karma roles? They seem to be set right. More dangerous and/or harder to RP, the higher in the karmaland they are.

Are they filled with too many magickers? Eh... Magickers are dangerous and harder to RP. Of course they're in the karma list.

Some mundane roles would be nice. Something that may let you 'break' the game if not played well.. Like a merchant that has the efficiency of a pickpocket when it comes to fighting? "Black Marketeer"? In 'rinth it can't be an easy life with a merchant where you don't have crimflagged rooms to keep you alive. But a merchant who can moderately defend himself could be fun, provided the crafting list is diminished a little and compatible with 'rinth materials. Uh.. bad idea.. But better ones can come.

"Skill up"? Everything's too easy to skill up. Two starting skills of a merchant branch unbelieveably fast. Melee capabilities, backstab and throw improve really fast. But nothing matched the magickers, right? Even if you normally don't grind, you have a slow day with noone to contact to and you end up a magickal skill of yours doubled in performance in no time. Maybe, let's say... Our rooms take count of 'track's, so rooms can contain variables I guess. Let's say every room have a 'saturation' rating.

Then let's say for Cave N this rating is 50000. A defiler comes in and starts practising, spending 500 mana in his study. Now, after every casting, there's a 500/50000=1% chance to invoke an additional, random effect from his spell list - and only area-effective ones. If the defiler takes it to a different level, spending 1500 mana, there is going to be a 3% chance to have some 'wild surge'. If the room is fully saturated? Uh.. I'd ask for a rip in material plane to one of the elemental planes and creatures pouring out for a few moments who are possibly agreessive.

This stops spamming spells? Certainly not. But it encourages the defiler to move to different spots from time to time. Travel may mean encounters and encounters may mean RP. We can even add special effects that are not actually spells. Like, for Vivadu every food and drink in the room including your inventory gets poisoned very lightly. For Suk-Krath everything gets 'blackened' or 'burnt'. For Drov darkness coats the room, but additionally the 'light' command does not work - no glow crystal, no torch, no irrig beetle lamp. Just darkness. For nilaz, ... err.. I'm losing my imagination here. Tiny undead cockroaches skitter around?

Karma classes restrictive? Yes they are indeed. Let's say you're playing a gemmer. You 'have' to defend yourself. Here comes grinding. You're Oashi or you're unemployed and thus you're most probably forced to go outside the gates to earn. In ideal conditions PCs should avoid outright attacking a gemmer but there are arrows, throwing axes, NPC scrabs, beetles and spi..spi... kitten.

If you're ungemmed, it's actually worse. The wannabe raider doesn't see a sign around your throat revealing that you're a magicker. You can either defend yourself before reeling to a lump of inert flesh or you surrender and get robbed/die.

And.. let's assume you're a *shudder* sorcerer. Good. Now templars, gemmers and specialised magicker hunters are after you. Dare not grinding. I dare you.

Mundane roles, also, force you to grind. You're a half-giant? Good. With that wisdom of yours it'll take a long time to kill a jozhal. Mul? Err.. All right, I barely know anything about the experience of muls.

Karma roles too powerful/too influental? Where there's magick, there's always someone stronger than you. In the case of ARM, there are so unbelieveably strong magickal forces that if you step on one too many toes, you die. That's not totally my experience but it's quoted from an experienced ex-player. A karma-class needs politics, friends and Xanatos' gambits to even stay alive.

[Niamh]

Part of the reason high karma roles are where they are is because of how much of a challenge they are to play.  Another thing to keep in mind is that karma is not only a measure of a player's roleplay.  It's also a measure of how much staff trusts that player to play responsibly, keep IC and OOC separate, not focus their time on skillmaxing, communicate openly and honestly with staff, things like that.

[jcarter]

My main issue with mages and sorcerers is that they're powerful enough to only need one in the place of several mundanes in a role. If a few salt worms need to be taken down, you could set up a solid RPT involving at least four or five different people, minimum. Or, you could hire just one mage of a certain type to be used in their place. While that's a poor example in general, there are a few things that have happened and are happening similar to it. When sorcs come into the picture, it almost tends to be a deus ex machina scenario. Sorcerers can get things done that would take dozens of mundanes, and it just kills off a lot of possibilities for RPTs that could be done involving four or more other PCs, or they will just shut down other avenues of approach.

The way things come across for me is that mages can't shouldn't really be a part of Byn-style RPTs such as "go lower to tarantula population" just because of that level of power. At that point, if there's a group of mages, they tend to get thrown RPTs in their direction that are more up their alley involving magicks. These RPTs usually seem to be way, way above the levels of mundanes being able to assist, and it just ends up seeming like there's two games going on at once: one involving mages/sorcs and the other involving mundanes.

Those two paragraphs are rife with terrible examples and vague info, but something like this can be difficult to discuss when trying to stay out of IC territory.

[LoD]

These RPTs usually seem to be way, way above the levels of mundanes being able to assist, and it just ends up seeming like there's two games going on at once: one involving mages/sorcs and the other involving mundanes.

I see this as a key issue with the current high-karma class design.  And I don't believe it's restricted to RPT's, but is a persistent problem in how the game has evolved.

If you imagine the coded power potential of a given character, or group of characters, as a bubble surrounding them, the mundane bubble is so much smaller than that of the magicker.  And I don't believe that we have a large enough player base to support the infrastructure necessary to accommodate that high power potential.  It's like playing laser tag in a 4-story building.

The first floor (mundanes) has an intricate obstacle maze, smoke screens, nooks and crannies, and lots of support for making the game interesting and fun for the participants.  The upper floors (magickers, psionicists) are pretty much devoid of furniture, obstacles, cool lighting, or any of the elements that make the first floor fun.  They're also much more sparsely populated, where you only see another player from time to time, whereas the ground floor is crawling with people.  Since it's so sparsely populated, the owners can't warrant spending the time and money to upgrade the experience, and so the small number of high-karma classes on the upper floors, instead of shooting each other, end up taking aim at the mundanes down below from a superior position.

If you bring the killing potential of magickers (read elementalists) down, allow them to integrate back into the northern populace with similar issues of discrimination and intolerance as Allanak, you will effectively bring them down off these underpopulated 2nd, 3rd, and 4th floors so that almost everyone can enjoy the game from a similar vantage point.  The mundanes don't feel like their efforts are constantly being undermined by the superior power and position of the people on the upper levels, and the high-karma classes have a lot more choices in way of cooperation, tactics, and interaction than walking around an unfinished ghost-level sniping mundanes down below while they wait for some real competition.

Integrating them back into society also allows them to be less hunted/killed due to their nature, and more to be hunted/killed due to their actions, like any other character.  I agree with some of the others that sorcerers/psionicists should be kept as powerful as they are today, but removed from the karma list of choices (special app only) if elementalists lost a little bit of their "bite" from a killing point of view, not necessarily a defensive point of view.

-LoD

[spawnloser]

jcarter, I think you aren't taking into the account how many of those mages ballsy enough to solo a salt worm are mostly all playing new characters nowadays, aren't they?

LoD, the whole problem with your suggestion is that for them to be brought back down would require major rebuilding of how a mage works skill-wise.  They start off weak but gain power over time, eclipsing mundanes, sure, but they have their drawbacks too.  They can't fill other roles as effectively because of how the class system is built.

Honestly, in this game, having things the way they are, it works and makes sense to me.  We don't have the system to do magick in many other ways without a serious overhaul... and you know what?  I think Arm 2.0 has that figured out, from what we've heard of how classes work.  You want to play someone without any skills, just has spells (like in Arm 1.0)?  Okay.  Or you are a somewhat lower-power mage with some skills from another class thrown in, picking a specialty from each class, and bango!  A mage that doesn't nuke everything nearby when he's big and can compete in other ways too.  This will allow them to integrate much better, so long as the world doesn't still have the polarized love/hate for magickers that it does now.

[LoD]

LoD, the whole problem with your suggestion is that for them to be brought back down would require major rebuilding of how a mage works skill-wise.  They start off weak but gain power over time, eclipsing mundanes, sure, but they have their drawbacks too.  They can't fill other roles as effectively because of how the class system is built.

Yeah, I agree -- I don't think it's a realistic concept for Arm 1, because it would require not only involve a major rebuild of the elementalist skill-progression model, but also some major IC cultural changes that I don't think are worth enough to pursue when Arm 2 can address them instead.

-LoD

[Akoto]

I shall steal jhunter's format for my reply!


What are your thoughts and opinions about the current karma roles? As someone who frequently plays them, I'd be lying if I said that I have any issues. I worked for my karma over the course of years, and I enjoy having the earned privilege of being able to create those types of characters at will. That's about as honest as I can be regarding my bias.

Are they filled with too many magicker guilds? I am primarily a mage player. As such, I would reply that this is a difficult issue to get around. I don't see how you couldn't have a bunch of mages filling the karma spots, as even Rukkians and Vivaduans are potentially very influential/powerful. I suppose my answer is no.

Should some more mundane ones be available? I believe the mundane guilds we have provide adequate diversity and pretty much cover the spectrum of whatever one could want to play. No need to further dilute things, unless you have something truly original in mind.

How about extra races from the past being brought back? This, I would like. I've always regretted passing up the opportunity I had to play a halfling. New races would appeal to me, particularly mantis. I can see how these would be potentially isolated, but that's okay. People with karma are generally accustomed to that.

Do you see them as too easy to "skill up?" No. Until they practice their magick a good bit, mages are about as easy to kill as a one-legged tregil. They need to be able to advance at a reasonable pace, as their spells are really their only defense. They have no melee potential unless they spend a long, long while raising offense/defense.

Are they too restrictive, thus leading a player into doing more "skill grinding" than they would normally do with a less restrictive position? I do think they must skill grind to some extent as a matter of survival (especially if you're something in the vein of a sorcerer), but they shouldn't do it all day long. Even in isolated roles, there's other stuff to be done. Explore, greb, get food and water, etc. I'm okay with mages being restrictive, as it's the "other side of the coin" to having their power.

Are roles such as the ones we have seen as too powerful or too influential for the limited player base and major population areas we have IG? I can only answer with how I see them, personally. In my opinion, no, not at all. Mages should be powerful, but they have to work to get there. Those first several days played are a time of great vulnerability, especially when you consider that you're already marked for death in most places. If you make it through and develop some power/influence, that's fine by me. It's a deserved reward. As an aside, I also object to the suggestion that we have a limited player base. These days, seeing 60+ online is pretty damn good for any kind of text-based game.