City Elves in the South

[Spider]

Are city elves being phased out in the South?

I find it strange that the number one difference between Elves and the other races has absolutely no coded backing in the largest city in the Known World. The entire racial identity is focused around the tribal mentality, and it is non-existent outside the virtual world. For a race, one that follows closely to humans as the largest populous, not to have any coded support clan wise is a horrible representation of the game world, in my opinion.

How many coded Nakki born human(or dwarf) clans are available for play? And elves have zero? Of course there are minor exceptions, but these do not necessarily follow the tribal mentality.

If the reason for this is to transition to Arm 2, since it has been said that elves will have no place in the new incarnation(thus shouldn't have an effect on it), then I would like to know, so I stop wasting my time on concepts that revolve around tribes, hoping to play an elf that has other PC's to play with as a tribe.

Will the no tribe rule be lifted any time before Arm 2? I can only hope. If I found Tuluk to be more fun to play I would go there(just personal taste, the documentation, culture, and history are fantastic in my opinion).

[Reiloth]

I as well find it odd, as I have an email from Bhagharva in 2006 or so that names and details 5 or so City Elf tribes in the Labyrinth.

[Dar]

There are coded elf tribes in Allanak. They are simply not opened. The reason why there is a currently supported elf tribe in Tuluk and none in Nak could be many, but I suppose only Imms have a full picture. Right now, the entire gameworld is in a state of turmoil, Tuluk doesnt even have its own version of the 'Rinth, as far as I'm aware.


This does not preclude you from starting an elf in allanak and have him a virtual tribe. Nor does it preclude you from slowly, gradually, painfully create a tribe of your own. But you'd be starting from scratch, there "were" attempts before.

[Spider]

This does not preclude you from starting an elf in allanak and have him a virtual tribe. Nor does it preclude you from slowly, gradually, painfully create a tribe of your own. But you'd be starting from scratch, there "were" attempts before.

I'm aware of this. I've actually been one that made an attempt, the concept of course failed. Elven loyalty tests are tough, and take a long time. How long? Two years? Five years? How long does it take to make a member of a race, that naturally is distrustful of all(especially other elves), and make them fully trust you, as well as the other way around?

This is a major problem with establishing a new elven tribe. Banking on other PC's to be there for many IG years despite the limitations placed on them is an exercise in futility. I find it hard to keep a PC around for that long.

Elven Loyalty tests are great, and should be followed closely.

The no new clan policy is also a major road block in this.

[Nyr]

Are city elves being phased out in the South?

Nope.

Will the no tribe rule be lifted any time before Arm 2?

There's not a "no tribe" rule.  There are just no coded city-elf tribes open to players in Allanak/'Rinth at this time.  It's not anything new, and it's not anything permanent.

[Spider]

Are city elves being phased out in the South?

Nope.

Will the no tribe rule be lifted any time before Arm 2?

There's not a "no tribe" rule.  There are just no coded city-elf tribes open to players in Allanak/'Rinth at this time.  It's not anything new, and it's not anything permanent.

Ah, good to know. Thanks Nyr.

[Synthesis]

That doesn't mean anything's going to happen any time soon.

[RogueGunslinger]

Yeah, considering it's been two years and I've not seen southern coded elf tribe.

[Twilight]

And the one that has been there in the past was by application, rather than an "open" tribe like the Desert Elves have.

[spawnloser]

One?  Actually Reiloth is right.  A couple/few years ago there were at least 3 open at once.

[Reiloth]

And the one that has been there in the past was by application, rather than an "open" tribe like the Desert Elves have.

The tribe you are referring to is the Haruch Kemad, which is closed for play. The tribes i'm referring to i'd rather not say without Staff Permission (c), but it's safe to say that even the little paragraphs Bhagharva wrote up about them brought so much damn flavor to city-elves in the Labyrinth.

EDIT::

Along these lines, i'm petitioning the staff to make these tribes available to put in your background, and supply the same 'one paragraph blurbs' to account for it. I think it would allow city elves a lot more depth compared to 'Oh, Tribe? Yeah. They been murdered.'

[Spoon]

Good points. Playing a tribeless elf is like an entirely different role altogether. Why can't there be unsupported city elf tribes, similar to how some of the open human tribes work (like the Benjari did)? Just requires a few docs for background and you're off.

[Rhyden]

Seems Armers always have to have -something- to complain about.

That being said, it would be nice to see a coded city elf tribe in the south too.

[Zoltan]

Just write up your own damn tribe, for crying out loud. I've done so myself, in preparation for the Celf I'll someday play. No, it's not very streamlined, and no, it's not as easy to get other players into, but thems the breaks.

[spicemustflow]

How about you writing up your merchant house? Coming up with a V-tribe can be fun, but you're not allowed to use it for more than one PC, and that can be a problem for some. Also, by the time elven tests of loyalty end, arm 2 will come. Opening some of the less powerful, non coded tribes will do wonders for elven PCs in the rinth.

[FantasyWriter]

How about you writing up your merchant house? Coming up with a V-tribe can be fun, but you're not allowed to use it for more than one PC

This contradiction is one of the chief reason c-elves are so unpopular (at least in my opinion).
Elves MUST have a tribe but you can't have other PCs from that same tribe.

Unless staff plans to open up a tribe in Nak or the Rinth, I believe allowing two to four players to bring out a virtual tribe should seriously be reconsidered.

[janeshephard]

How about you writing up your merchant house? Coming up with a V-tribe can be fun, but you're not allowed to use it for more than one PC

This contradiction is one of the chief reason c-elves are so unpopular (at least in my opinion).
Elves MUST have a tribe but you can't have other PCs from that same tribe.

Unless staff plans to open up a tribe in Nak or the Rinth, I believe allowing two to four players to bring out a virtual tribe should seriously be reconsidered.

You don't need tribes in the rinth. You already have gangs and such. As far as I know they are pretty active as is. It's just a tough place to start a character.

[Nyr]

I try to leave a clan better than it was when I found it.  Gives me something to do.

[Synthesis]

I'm guessing the reason the current city-elf tribes in the 'rinth aren't open is the same reason we can't play PC gith, and the same reason they put the kibosh on the Red Fangs for a brief period and got rid of/closed down the Dune Stalkers for good.

If a city-elf tribe does open in the south, I can pretty much guarantee it won't be 'rinth-based, and it will be crafting and trading oriented (superficially, at least) like the Akai S'jirr in the north.  The problem with this is that there aren't any Happy Hunting Grounds resource-rich and resource-dense zones around Allanak...which is why PC merchants around 'nak who aren't life-sworn to a GMH or serving as an aide to a Noble House are extremely rare. 

If you created a crafting-oriented city-elf tribe in Allanak, nobody would play in it after the novelty factor wore off, because there ain't shit for materials around Allanak.  Three fairly large branches of the merchant skill tree are nigh-impossible to access around Allanak, because the raw materials you need to practice on are literally rarer than flashpowder and lockpicks.  Not to mention that the zones around 'nak present a tremendous drain on stamina, and the regen rates even in clear weather are abysmal, and 90% of the time they're even worse because there is some level of storm out.  In other words, if a city-elf sets foot outside the gate without some kind of magick to make up for the stamina factor, they are seriously boned.

Meanwhile, in Tuluk, you can walk 4 rooms out the gate and you have an infinite supply for two, and the third is always available thanks to indie hunters constantly bringing in raw materials, and you can regen your entire stamina pool from 0 to max in just about less time than it took to read this post, if you need to go out and forage for something on your own.

[spicemustflow]

Why do you think it will be crafting/trading oriented tribe then?

[Synthesis]

Why do you think it will be crafting/trading oriented tribe then?

Because there are only three* basic things that most players enjoy:  killing shit, stealing shit, and crafting shit.  If you create a city-elf tribe around the first two, it will either be hunted to extermination by overzealous Templars and militiamen, or it will devolve into merciless griefing, or some combination of the two.

Also, there already exist tribes that are focused on stealing shit and killing motherfuckers who get in the way of them stealing shit...and those tribes are closed.  So that pretty much only leaves the crafting option.*

*Well, there's also mudsex too, I guess.  

[spicemustflow]

In the case of codedly unsupported tribes, I think the players themselves would quickly learn to keep their activities under the authorities' radar. We have HK, for example, that managed to do it for centuries. It's leaders are competent NPCs, though.

[janeshephard]

Why do you think it will be crafting/trading oriented tribe then?

Because there are only three* basic things that most players enjoy:  killing shit, stealing shit, and crafting shit.  If you create a city-elf tribe around the first two, it will either be hunted to extermination by overzealous Templars and militiamen, or it will devolve into merciless griefing, or some combination of the two.

I really think you're wrong. I also think your other post about the Red Fangs is somewhat wrong. Red Fangs went from being boogiemen to being a very nicely RP'd clan right now that fit in well with the world.

[Synthesis]

In the case of codedly unsupported tribes, I think the players themselves would quickly learn to keep their activities under the authorities' radar. We have HK, for example, that managed to do it for centuries. It's leaders are competent NPCs, though.

The problem is:  PCs don't go ballistic when NPCs steal shit from their persons/apartments, because NPCs never do it.  However, it doesn't take long for most folks to figure out who the PC burglar or pickpocket is, and as soon as that happens, anyone who has ever had anything to do with that burglar or pickpocket has now forfeited their life, as far as the apartment-based community in the city is concerned.

It's currently impossible to be a competent PC leader of something like a city-elf tribe in the 'rinth without having to spamkill endless droves of newbs who can't understand what's going on, and without eventually being entirely confined to the 'rinth because every PC on the southside wants your head on a pike.

I suppose it could work if you retconned a bit and wrote something like a connection between the tribe and some powerful (red-robe or above) templar...something like "Great Lord Jal and his minions maintain contacts within NewCityElfTribe in order to counterbalance the influence of the Guild and to gain reliable monthly reports on the state of the sewers beneath the city."  Then, if shit got out of hand, you could have a staff-run NPC come down and say, "look, little templar, if you keep messing with these guys and fucking up my family's business, I'll send -your- ass down into the sewers next time, and you won't be coming back."

[Synthesis]

Why do you think it will be crafting/trading oriented tribe then?

Because there are only three* basic things that most players enjoy:  killing shit, stealing shit, and crafting shit.  If you create a city-elf tribe around the first two, it will either be hunted to extermination by overzealous Templars and militiamen, or it will devolve into merciless griefing, or some combination of the two.

I really think you're wrong. I also think your other post about the Red Fangs is somewhat wrong. Red Fangs went from being boogiemen to being a very nicely RP'd clan right now that fit in well with the world.

I'm pretty sure the reason they went to "nicely RP'ed" is because Shalooonsh descended from the heavens and said, "If you keep this shit up, I will force-store you all. Have a nice day."  I'm also pretty sure that the only reason he gave them the option of self-correcting their behavior is because the key players are long-time vets who could understand when enough was enough.

[mansa]

Synthesis is speaking my thoughts on the issue.


:edit:

I'm fine with a retcon, honestly.  Mostly because I'm used to retcons happening to any ongoing fiction where the authors change.

Some retcons are good, and some retcons are bad.

I mean, look at Star Trek.  Originally, there was no money in the Star Trek universe, but in Star Trek: Deep Space 9, Pressed Bars of Latlinum is money that is used frequently as plot devices.  I like that sort of storyline change.


City Elves in Allanak need to have a non-rinthi tribe, and that's more important than a rinthi one.  But -anything- changed in the game is welcome!

[janeshephard]

I'm pretty sure the reason they went to "nicely RP'ed" is because Shalooonsh descended from the heavens and said, "If you keep this shit up, I will force-store you all. Have a nice day."  I'm also pretty sure that the only reason he gave them the option of self-correcting their behavior is because the key players are long-time vets who could understand when enough was enough.

I don't doubt the staff came down on the Red Fangs and improved the docs, worked with the players to make it a better fit for the world. I'm just not that pessimistic about the player base.

I don't believe, as you put it, that most players enjoy stealing and killing. On the contrary, I think most players enjoy good RP and wish they were part of more dramatic and revealing plots. I think many of them will take that over PKing mindlessly.

Anyway, there's nothing more I can add to this particular line of debate.

[Marc]

I'm pretty sure the reason they went to "nicely RP'ed" is because Shalooonsh descended from the heavens and said, "If you keep this shit up, I will force-store you all. Have a nice day."  I'm also pretty sure that the only reason he gave them the option of self-correcting their behavior is because the key players are long-time vets who could understand when enough was enough.

I don't doubt the staff came down on the Red Fangs and improved the docs, worked with the players to make it a better fit for the world. I'm just not that pessimistic about the player base.

I don't believe, as you put it, that most players enjoy stealing and killing. On the contrary, I think most players enjoy good RP and wish they were part of more dramatic and revealing plots. I think many of them will take that over PKing mindlessly.

Anyway, there's nothing more I can add to this particular line of debate.

Don't view stealing and killing shit as PKing and player v player only.

People LUV to go out hunting duskhorn and scrab.  People LUV to use their skills and 90% of skills involve, yep, you guessed it:  stealing shit, killing shit, crafting shit.

Synthesist isn't always right, but he's spot on there.  You can't just write up an amazing story to explain your tribe/clan.  As an individual, even two individuals, you can make any concept work.  But if you want to draw in players from the general populace, you need to offer outlets for the above.  stealing shit/killing shit/crafting shit.

People ALSO luv good rp.  Deep, revealing plots?  Hell ya.  Everyone is going to raise their hand and cry "Yes please".  But those plots only fill so much time and people can only sit in a tavern so long before the sparring/grebbing/work bug hits them.

[RogueGunslinger]

I just don't see how allowing for a coded, easy to join elf clan is going to stray from your mold of being able to kill/craft/steal.

They would probably do all three, just like almost every other clan.

[spicemustflow]

In the case of codedly unsupported tribes, I think the players themselves would quickly learn to keep their activities under the authorities' radar. We have HK, for example, that managed to do it for centuries. It's leaders are competent NPCs, though.

The problem is:  PCs don't go ballistic when NPCs steal shit from their persons/apartments, because NPCs never do it.  However, it doesn't take long for most folks to figure out who the PC burglar or pickpocket is, and as soon as that happens, anyone who has ever had anything to do with that burglar or pickpocket has now forfeited their life, as far as the apartment-based community in the city is concerned.

That goes for every unofficial group of PCs, tribal or not. When the said burglar has to mind the small guidelines for his tribe, he's far less likely to stir shit or he may even face sanctions from those on his side. Don't you think that with the addition of tribes, elves may have more incentive to stay in their eastside and squabble with each other than go south because there's nothing to do in the rinth? Dividing the territory and activities may do the trick. People love conflict, they'll fight over anything. There, less rats in the cleaner parts of the city.

Even if someone fucks up, pisses someone important and the current members of, say, Valuren end up impaled, the next batch will be more careful.

[Marc]

Think what was being pointed out is there are already clans/tribes based around stealing/killing and they are currently closed.  They wont create another from scratch if they want that element.  There is none (that I'm aware of) that 'focuses' on crafting in 'nak like the bejeweled hand does in tuluk.

The next part of that was a lack of resources in the south to support a crafting clan.  That is just plan wrong IMHO and I can only think of one major branch that is hard to go anywhere with in the south.  It's really to bad, but a fast fast hurdle to get over.

Tuluk is crafting newb-ville, but Allanak is hardly poor for crafters.  Easily #2 behind Tuluk with ample market (IMHO better markets for pc-made crafts because the npc wares are so shite).  Depending on what you're crafting, could be argued the vendor money is better in the south.  There are tons of raw materials (just different) available all the time in unlimited quantity.  Other resources are available with minimal danger.  The environment can't be argued, but that really is just part of the souths flavor.  If you wanna go prance around an air-conditioned forest, go read some WoW novels, leaf-eaters  

A city-elf merchant in 'nak could have a field day.  Huge pc market, plenty of isolated social-classes to work between, plenty of crafting supplies, plenty of stupid round-ears to trick.

[Nyr]

As an administrator, I don't detail all of my plans for my responsibilities to the playerbase at large in advance (and as a general rule, most staffers keep to this for Arm 1.0).  Occasionally, you will see staff ask for feedback on things and that feedback may influence a future decision.  Staff will usually post announcements after changes, new additions, fixes, etc have been made.  This policy works out best for all involved:  you see work done rather than work promised, and we are held to the standards of work done rather than work promised.

This area is my responsibility, and I'm breaking my rule by saying that this sort of thing was on our list of things to look at months ago.  It is a list; there is an order to it.  Any changes implemented will be put in after they are ready and not a moment before.

Looks like people are just using this topic to be passive-aggressive to each other and staff.  Locking.