NPC Variation and Intelligence

[jmordetsky]

There was a discussion on a clan forum about NPC intelligence and danger and I was curious to get some feedback on ideas around how to add some extra smarts, variation and general BBQ sauce to existing NPCs . An example are the gith in the red desert, they do all sorts of neat stuff now (visit your local gith store for details).

Idea 1 danger variations - If we had the of a "conditional spawn" - like when a gith died and a new one was going to spawn there is:

90% chance it's a raider
80% chance it's a scout
50% chance it's an archer(see below)
40% chance it's an elite (see below)
10% chance it's a mage/shaman/priest (see below)

That would let you rotate in very bad ass classes of gith on a infrequent basis. Where:

1) An elite is a raider, but much more bad ass weaponry and skills, maybe poisoned spears
2) An archer has well...arrows.
3) Mage/Shaman spawns with 2 or three guards and has an arsenal of spells to f-with you.

This could help to keep things interesting. Rolling into a given area where you expect certain behavior might yield surprising results.


*****************

Idea 2 - Gortoks, howling to summon pals. Pretty self explanatory. If you are fighting a tok and there are other toks a few rooms nearby the Tok howls to tell it's pack to move in.

That's what I got. Add yours.

[racurtne]

There was a discussion on a clan forum about NPC intelligence and danger and I was curious to get some feedback on ideas around how to add some extra smarts, variation and general BBQ sauce to existing NPCs . An example are the gith in the red desert, they do all sorts of neat stuff now (visit your local gith store for details).

Idea 1 danger variations - If we had the of a "conditional spawn" - like when a gith died and a new one was going to spawn there is:

90% chance it's a raider
80% chance it's a scout
50% chance it's an archer(see below)
40% chance it's an elite (see below)
10% chance it's a mage/shaman/priest (see below)

That would let you rotate in very bad ass classes of gith on a infrequent basis. Where:

1) An elite is a raider, but much more bad ass weaponry and skills, maybe poisoned spears
2) An archer has well...arrows.
3) Mage/Shaman spawns with 2 or three guards and has an arsenal of spells to f-with you.

This could help to keep things interesting. Rolling into a given area where you expect certain behavior might yield surprising results.


*****************

Idea 2 - Gortoks, howling to summon pals. Pretty self explanatory. If you are fighting a tok and there are other toks a few rooms nearby the Tok howls to tell it's pack to move in.

That's what I got. Add yours.

These percentages add up to a mind boggling 270%. Not sure how that's intended to be implemented, but I'm going to assume it's just some numbers you pulled out for an example.

I like the idea. As it is now, people pretty much know where all the spawns are and exactly what's going to spawn there.  It could encourage you to gather a bunch of OOC knowledge to know where the normal spawns are. Things do get moved with people come near, but that's a rarity it seems. That's just what it feels like, I still need to play a bit longer before I get a good feel for all of that.

I like the idea. Well, both actually.

First real post with my opinion in it, don't hurt me.

[Synthesis]

The wastes are dangerous enough without a bunch of overpowered random encounters.

[AmandaGreathouse]

The wastes are dangerous enough without a bunch of overpowered random encounters.

I hate to agree with Synthesis... Just kidding, I haven't found many posts by Gimf I agree with but want to expound on and I want in on that game

I agree with Synthesis, though. I mean, not everyone has the playtimes to only leave the city with groups, first off. Second off, don't tell me not to leave the city without a group. Wandering the wilderness is my second favorite thing to do in Arm. And if it wasn't quite popular, rangers wouldn't have nearly the percentage they do among characters played. So just don't say it. It's pointless. I'm sorry you only play at peak times and never have this issue.

While I think giving more intelligence to npcs is always a good thing, I think that making wilderness encounters flat-out more challenging is going to leave a bad taste in my mouth. My mouth, and possibly a fair number of others. Other players who like to make explorer characters, or other players who need to hunt to survive, or other players who play off-peak and really just don't have a regular 'group' to go out with.

I like the general idea (make npcs smarter), but I'm violently opposed to some of the details offered (ie, a chance to make the gith encounter probably about 5x more deadly by making a single gith into a caster and two-three other gith, or that gortoks already DO act in packs, and yet you want to.. I'm not sure... make the howl bring them from 10 rooms away? They already run in on any combat within line of sight, and there tend to be 2 or more within line of sight of each other as is.)

[janeshephard]

While I think giving more intelligence to npcs is always a good thing, I think that making wilderness encounters flat-out more challenging is going to leave a bad taste in my mouth.

I agree with you Amanda. I also agree some of the critters need to be dumbed down some. I'd like to see less intelligent tracking. When you bump into someone at one point in the Known and they're being chased by a critter from some other end of the Known it makes the critter seem a bit TOO smart.

If anything give PCs creative ways of dealing with beasts. I figured out one or two ways to use nature against nature but they almost seem exploitative sometimes. I'd love to see raptor urine in raptor bladders. "pour bladder me" == win. Stuff like that

EDIT: I'm going to put that last idea through the request tool and see if staff will go for it sometime in the future.

[Twilight]

I think that scripts can be created that bring the game to life more, make it grittier and less predictable, but at the same time don't necessarily make the game world more dangerous.  If there is a problem in the OP approach, it is that the ideas presented include elements that increase danger.  Some ideas around this:

Verrin hawks/kylori/etc:  Have a chance when wounded to flee and get set with a flag that treats melee attacks like kick/bash are currently handled.  So you would have to use a bow/thrown object/magick to finish them off as they fly around in the sky above you.

Shik:  Have a chance to latch onto your mount as you ride by and start sucking off hps (basically follow+ldesc change+suckin hps, not combat) to a certain level, then it lets go, satiated.  Have it reduce max mv for the mount for awhile if it completes the feeding.  So you need to take care of it, somehow.

Scrab:  Mmmm, no, scrabs are just dumb bugs.

Raptor:  Instead of needing combat to initiate track, having them track things that have gone through the same room as them.

[Marc]

I think that scripts can be created that bring the game to life more, make it grittier and less predictable, but at the same time don't necessarily make the game world more dangerous.  If there is a problem in the OP approach, it is that the ideas presented include elements that increase danger.

I'm sure plenty of people will argue, but the wastes are downright easy to navigate and survive.  Issues are running into Big Bad Nasties (Meks/horrors/thegreatunknown/dragons), but the run of the mill npc critters (gith, tembo, scrab, gortok) are absolutely not dangerous.  They can and do kill people, but only through stupidity, bad planning or bad luck.  If you, the pc, plan ahead and make sure to keep your escape route clear, very few of the npcs are a danger.

The npcs that are dangerous are the ones that have scripts and act in less than diku-mob predictable ways.  While I'm not a huge fan of the specific ideas mentioned above, I am a big pro-ponent of more randomized npc abilities.  Something to keep the code-savvy players on their toes while not making the whole idea of outdoor life a taxing ordeal.

NPCs need to react to archery and ranged combat intelligently.  Less solo gith's charging a whole crew of byn just because they are flagged 'aggressive'.  Same with less-bright races, ie scrab, beetles, etc.  Animals shouldn't be suicidal, and charging groups of anything not 10x smaller than you seems suicidal (maybe different reactions from animals based on location.  Most shit will just run away if out matched, or try to, but if you're near/in their den, watch out)

Maybe the coded combat ability does not need to be tweaked, just more scripts to flush npcs out.

(basically just expand on what's already happened over the past half decade.  most notable npcs have scripts to dictate behavior.  Just need to step that AI up.)

[jhunter]

I'm all for the original idea. I don't think it will really make things much tougher, but it sure will go a long way for mixing things up and making it a bit more realistic. I hate it when you get to the point where:

OOCly: "Alright, let's go see if that skeet that spawns near the tree is there at the moment."

Icly: "Let's go hunting and see what we can find today."

I'd like spawns to be more random but still fitting for their location. More variations on the same type of creature. (appearance, etc) and more variation on what sort of can and do spawn there. Also with differing rarity.

[jmordetsky]

These percentages add up to a mind boggling 270%.

Right, consider it an if(firstRollSucceeds){ exit;} elseif(secondRoll) etc;

[zanthalandreams]

You know....no.  I don't think they're dangerous enough.  I love this idea.  

What would enhance the multi-player aspect of this game more - the predictable nature of respawns allowing for experienced players to exponentially handicap the 'harshness' of the world for subsequent characters, thus allowing for more solo playing by veteran players /OR/ random badassedness appearing where you just thought you'd get to kill the nth skeet of the day or safely skirt past generic gith load 12 (oh wait, someone cleared the road already? phew!)??

Imagine the events that would happen the first time someone spam-ran, bloody and smoking into Luir's to alert the ever-edgy Kuraci that there's a gith wiggler burning up traders within a tregil-toss from their gates?  


I love the idea of a lone desert wanderer myself, all rangery and sweetness.   But the times I've had to build up a crew were the best of all.  

[Kryos]

If you think the wastes aren't dangerous, I wonder if you're doing things right.  As I understand it, clanned PCs are supposed to use wish to describe what they are doing out in the wastes.  If you do your part, you won't regret it, and riding/running around won't exactly be boring.  You will be on your toes the whole time, and you will, some times, run into adventure you never expected.

[AmandaGreathouse]

You hit that on the head, though. Clanned pcs. As in, usually groups of pcs. First of all.

Second,  I can't give out direct details on the pc themselves, but I've had one pc, who was a ranger, with more than ten days played, manage to get shot 3 times in under a minute by a gith, dropping them from 127 hp to about 12 hp. And then, said gith chased them over 30 rooms, all the way to the nearest civilization.

So... yeah. Whatever. And she WAS in a group. She just got picked off and chased for whatever reason.

[jmordetsky]

If you think the wastes aren't dangerous, I wonder if you're doing things right.  As I understand it, clanned PCs are supposed to use wish to describe what they are doing out in the wastes.  If you do your part, you won't regret it, and riding/running around won't exactly be boring.  You will be on your toes the whole time, and you will, some times, run into adventure you never expected.

Really doesn't scale.

[Akaramu]

As I understand it, clanned PCs are supposed to use wish to describe what they are doing out in the wastes. 

Really? I wasn't aware of that...

[Reiteration]

Think mages need to be like, 0.1%. Nasty peoples they is, especially with guards.

[Synthesis]

Aggro NPC mages? No.

Not only "no," but "fuck no."

You might as well code no-warning 15-room fall, 100% difficulty climb-check death pits at random locations in the desert.  If you like getting randomly ganked by NPCs so much, feel free to walk around the 'rinth wearing silks.

[Morgenes]

Please watch your tone, indicating that someone could go play another game isn't a very friendly attitude.

[Zoltan]

As I understand it, clanned PCs are supposed to use wish to describe what they are doing out in the wastes. 

Really? I wasn't aware of that...

It's always a good idea, even if you're clanless. I don't think it's a requirement per se, but in my experience it's always made things more fun. Waaaaaay more fun. I usually save the wishing up for that sort of thing to clan leaders when I'm with a group, because they're more in contact with the staff anyway and may have already laid out the itinerary for them. Also, my wishes usually come off as "hey we're going [there], it sure would be a -shame- if something terrible happened!" and I don't feel comfortable being "that" guy playfully taunting the staff when someone else is running the show.

As to the topic at hand, yeah, I would love some variation on things. It's sometimes easy to avoid danger unless you're actively looking for it. Aggro, automated mage NPCs, though? No thanks. But that goes back to wishing up when you go to new places, or old places that you just -know- are filled with magickal danger. If I'm going to be all 'gicked at, I want to know there's a human mind behind its action (even if it's just insta-gib).

[janeshephard]

As I understand it, clanned PCs are supposed to use wish to describe what they are doing out in the wastes. 

Really? I wasn't aware of that...

It's always a good idea, even if you're clanless.

I dunno. For the avid hunter this could mean wishing up every half hour or so.  I can see staff asking you to stop. I've never done it and know that staff were aware of most my comings and goings regardless.

Maybe this is for a specific clan because they have a specific set of enemies that would come after them. In any case, I've never been asked to wish up when heading to the wilderness. *shudder*

[Zoltan]

As I understand it, clanned PCs are supposed to use wish to describe what they are doing out in the wastes. 

Really? I wasn't aware of that...

It's always a good idea, even if you're clanless.

I dunno. For the avid hunter this could mean wishing up every half hour or so.  I can see staff asking you to stop. I've never done it and know that staff were aware of most my comings and goings regardless.

Maybe this is for a specific clan because they have a specific set of enemies that would come after them. In any case, I've never been asked to wish up when heading to the wilderness. *shudder*

I know I shouldn't speak for staff, but I can almost 100% guarantee you that they won't be bugged at all by you just giving them an FYI whenever you head into the wilderness. I suppose if you're like, demanding interaction every thirty minutes, that could be overkill.  I don't think I've ever personally been asked to get in that habit of the "wish for doom update", but I think I read about it somewhere on the GDB and I just dug it so much I added it to my routine. I know I've never been asked to -stop- doing it!

[Morgenes]

We encourage you to wish up when you are heading out to do something like this.  We may not always answer, but it's a good fyi.  You should also wish up before you do anything where NPCs should react more realistically than the code allows, such as breaking into a compound or apartment.

[Synthesis]

I've been playing for over a decade and I don't think I've ever wished up to announce that I'm going out to do x, y, or z.  I doubt the staff care if you're just going out to kill your 9 millionth tandu so you can pay your rent.

Not to mention the fact that if you're trying to pay your rent, pretty much the last thing you need is a staff member harassing you.  You'll get plenty of negative encounters, but I don't think I've ever gotten a positive one.

Not to say that a negative encounter necessarily isn't amusing, but it's not conducive to getting shit done that needs to get done.

[Cutthroat]

I've been playing for over a decade and I don't think I've ever wished up to announce that I'm going out to do x, y, or z.  I doubt the staff care if you're just going out to kill your 9 millionth tandu so you can pay your rent.

Not to mention the fact that if you're trying to pay your rent, pretty much the last thing you need is a staff member harassing you.  You'll get plenty of negative encounters, but I don't think I've ever gotten a positive one.

Not to say that a negative encounter necessarily isn't amusing, but it's not conducive to getting shit done that needs to get done.

I've wished up many times before, and I can say that it's brought a mix of positive encounters, negative encounters, and nothing noticeably different. It's especially helpful to do it if you're doing something particularly dangerous, or if you're traveling with a group, so that staff can prepare an appropriate response to your presence. I think staff won't mind if you're a hunter going out for the nine millionth time for the eventless tandu hunt, but if you're going to Sekrit Dangerous Place X or going out to kill Dangerous Thing Y it might be a good idea to wish up - they actually might save you from death by echoing the impending doom around you.

That said, I think this method is vastly preferable compared to the proposed idea because staff will generally supply an appropriate danger to a given situation, and randomized events may actually prove more frustrating.

[janeshephard]

We encourage you to wish up when you are heading out to do something like this.  We may not always answer, but it's a good fyi.  You should also wish up before you do anything where NPCs should react more realistically than the code allows, such as breaking into a compound or apartment.

The helpfile for wish should describe something about this but I'm not sure how to word it. Right now it does say we should use it sparingly.

EDIT: This is derailing the thread sorry.

[jmordetsky]

Aggro NPC mages? No.

Not only "no," but "fuck no."

You might as well code no-warning 15-room fall, 100% difficulty climb-check death pits at random locations in the desert.  If you like getting randomly ganked by NPCs so much, feel free to walk around the 'rinth wearing silks.

Marijuana is all but legal in California. Move there. Soon.

[jmordetsky]

As a little rule of thumb, I only wish up if I have a bunch of people that need to be entertained on something that generally boring (read: Wagon trip) and/or something is unusual is a foot (read: I'm breaking into a noble house).

My general thoughts are I'd like the staff to be paying attention to me as little as possible.

Just kidding....

Sort of....

In all seriousness, if your thoughts are "just wish up". That's not really what I wanted to encourage - I wanted to encourage thoughts on making NPCs more diverse and interesting and exciting. My feelings on the wish system (after a lot of time playing) is that the system:  

1) (Most importantly) Doesn't scale for large player base

2) Is prone to favoritism

3) Is prone to abuse and/or mistakes by newer Imms (Thats not meant to knock anyone - All positions of power are subject to the FNG syndrome (Fucking New Guy) and we've had our share).

That said - I'd like for this thread to remain about ideas - not about how awesome (or not) the wish system is. Consider this an opportunity to think creatively.

[jmordetsky]

And with that said - another idea:

The concept of a Spawning Pool followed by Spawned behaviors based on number of existing spawns. So - in this case we could pick a location - for example the Gith Mesa or something in the Red or Gortok den etc. This area becomes a known (or unknown) spawn point for a type of NPC. As IC time passes, NPCs of said type spawn at this location.

As they spawn, they at first just take up residence outside the spawn (the spawn itself could be heavily defended to avoid raiding etc). As they spawn, however, they check the number of still living spawns and if the numbers are high enough, they begin to fan out - indicating infestation in the area, or aggressive movements for sentients. As they start to move, they can given an inclination to move toward trade routes so that they essentially become a "growing threat" rather then a static occurrence. That would give local military clans a vested interest in keeping back the hordes. It would also put a quantifiable cap on daily twink-tasticness. Ie, you couldn't go out and slaughter hordes of gith everyday, because well - there aren't any left.

In theory, if the problem was left unchecked, you could have them create additional spawns, which created more and more of a problem essentially functioning as a multiplier of the in place effect. Ie, once at a certain level, a gortok might dig a den or a gith might make a camp and from there, additional numbers would spawn.

[AmandaGreathouse]

Actually... I kind of think that scripting mobs (read gith and other less humanoid npcs) to wander within the constraints of their area alone would go a long way. And it would make IC sense. Carru are native to scrub, so set carru npcs to wander randomly around any room with the terrain type 'scrub' and so forth.

Then it wouldn't matter much where npcs spawned, and they would have a random chance of forming small groups on their own.

[jmordetsky]

Actually... I kind of think that scripting mobs (read gith and other less humanoid npcs) to wander within the constraints of their area alone would go a long way. And it would make IC sense. Carru are native to scrub, so set carru npcs to wander randomly around any room with the terrain type 'scrub' and so forth.

Then it wouldn't matter much where npcs spawned, and they would have a random chance of forming small groups on their own.

That is interesting. Especially if they grouped up - but I thought they did this now? (I could be wrong.)

[AmandaGreathouse]

I really have no clue if they do it on their own or not. I know I've seen cases of aggro npcs killing other npcs within line of sight. [ie a carru on a skeet]. But whether it came because its aggressiveness was triggered is uncertain. As is whether or not the skeet wandered there of its own volition or was fleeing a n00b ranger. No clue.

I do like the way gortoks approach line-of-sight combat with other gortoks, but I have no idea if they would do the same if they saw you fighting a skeet, or how other animals and their behaviors (as they currently are) would figure in.

[Rhyden]

So long as NPCs have exact if not similar skills/abilities as PCs have I'm fine with anything.

The one thing I hate is when I see an NPC with incredible abilities no PC would ever have.

And you might say, but the NPCs aren't intelligent like PCs are, then code the NPCs to act intelligently against PCs. Code them to flee, to sneak and hide, to run to a safe zone, whatever, but if there are NPCs who have skills that no PC can ever have - it's a huge turn off for me.

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