But you're too tired to flee!

[RogueGunslinger]

lol It's clear you're reading, but not comprehendiong, or caring to comprehend what others are saying.


My propose solution? A heavily delayed "crawl" command. Not enough to get you away from any NPC or otherwise, but you can still move, albeit very slowly, if your PC is dying of thirst out in the wastes and has no Stam.


Edit: And of course you cant "crawl" away from a fight.

[Khorm]

I don't like ideas like this. Making it easier to survive out in the wastes isn't a direction I think that the game should take.

There are situations that PCs are put in that should result in their death. If you are getting tracked by a tembo and run out of stamina.. I guess that's one of those situations.

I get concerned about a "domino effect" where all of a sudden NPCs in the 'rinth don't beat your ass for wearing silk, they ask you kindly if you'd like to sell it to them for approx. 1.3x market value.

I propose introducing code to raptors, tembos, and other wasteland predators that makes them actively search and eat prey.

[RogueGunslinger]

lol It's clear you're reading, but not comprehendiong, or caring to comprehend what others are saying.


My propose solution? A heavily delayed "crawl" command. Not enough to get you away from any NPC or otherwise, but you can still move, albeit very slowly, if your PC is dying of thirst out in the wastes and has no Stam.


Edit: And of course you cant "crawl" away from a fight.

You know, thinking about it. This would be useless, as the code already handles this situation.


Yeah, no fleeing with zero stamina. Instead I offer you this:

Protip: Don't fight creatures when you don't have stamina.

[Synthesis]

I think you have slightly unrealistic expectations as to what exactly the results of increased sympathetic nervous stimulation would be.

As to the armies thing:  you neatly ignored the fact that it is a comparison.  No, you will not be so exhausted that you cannot move (I even stated this quite clearly).  However, in comparison to someone who is fresh, you -will- be unable to move fast enough to escape, because they are not nearly as exhausted.  I think this point is pretty much self-evident.

So, yes, the system is unrealistic in that you can be literally unable to move.

However, the system is also unrealistic in that you can move much faster across the world than you should be able to.

Thus, hitting "0" on your stamina is the game's way of telling you "you are moving too quickly to be considered even remotely realistic."  It is also the game's way of telling you, "there is no way you can escape this situation under your own power."

Also, I think you have a somewhat unrealistic expectation as to what the result of increased sympathetic nervous stimulation would be.  Yes, it increases your heart rate and respiratory rate and increases the rate of lipid and glucose mobilization while decreasing blood flow to the skin and very distal extremities.  Yes, it increases relative blood flow to skeletal muscle.  However, the net result of this will not be to suddenly make you Lance Armstrong:

"The major target for many illicitly used drugs in sport is the β2-AR that is found in the heart, lungs and skeletal muscle where it controls rate and force, relaxes tone and stimulates growth, respectively. β2-AR agonists are demonstrably powerful bronchodilators, anabolic agents and, in combination with corticosteroids, powerfully enhance their anti-inflammatory actions. However, there is little evidence from animal or human studies that these effects translate into an improvement in performance."  Br J Pharmacol. 2008 Jun;154(3):584-97.

It is also worth noting here that the supposed performance-enhancing aspect of these drugs is over the long term, having to do with their anabolic effects, not their short-term effects.  In fact, the only short-term drugs used to modulate the sympathetic nervous system are antagonists that reduce trembling and shaking for sports such as archery and target shooting.

It is also worth noting again that the system activates in response to "stress," which encompasses a very wide range of potential situations.  It is not merely activated when one is in fear of one's life.  Additionally, I think it is going much too far to assume that the mere activation of the sympathetic stress response would make the difference in a fight between an exhausted victim and a fresh attacker.

[evil_erdlu]

.....
I'm no doctor, but a brief bit of poking around shows that your assumption is just flat wrong.  Logic follows this conclusion as well, they aren't perceiving the same primordial fear of being expunged.  My experience in more then a hand full of fights of varying nature also tells me your assertion is wrong.  I've never been in a melee brawl for my life, sadly, so I'm limited to either brawls or martial arts.  I'd also be highly skeptical of someone posting they have been.  Typical 'sporting' or 'recreational fighting' doesn't really qualify. 
.....

Type "adrenaline rush" in in a search engine and read a few of the more serious results. (Better to type something medical beside - I tried <"adrenaline rush" gland> to ensure I don't see warcraft spells and eminem songs any more)

So; you'll see, the cause of adrenaline rush in the body is fear, anger or stress, as Synthesis mentioned. There are supposed to be trained, artificial adrenaline rushes because of competitive behaviours and conditioning, too. I mean, an athlete secretes more adrenaline as he works out regularly, but it is not a 'rush', it just encourages growth and repair of skeletal muscles. But in the main event in olympics? The stress indeed causes adrenaline rush. A soldier's body secretes adrenaline as the sergeant orders push-ups again when he could barely stand. But only in a real war, even if he's in a tank and feeling relatively safe, adrenaline rush kicks in.

From what I read it seems people get confused and misinterpret adrenaline rush with 'fight-or-flight' instinct, because even in med schools the primary example given is "a tiger in the room". But actually, "Rage occurs when oxytocin, vasopressin, and corticotropin-releasing hormone are rapidly released from the hypothalamus. This results in the pituitary gland producing and releasing large amounts of the adrenocorticotropic hormone, which causes the adrenal cortex to release corticosteroids...bla bla bla bla bla.......... Rage is also a state of mind in which large amounts of epinephrine are released and the body, as previously stated, reverts to a more primal instinct.". Epinephrine is just another fancy name for adrenaline. So people in rage have adrenaline rushes. Have I poked enough?

I'd like to quote you once more, I'm often kind but I have an adrenaline rush whenever someone debates in vain, ignoring facts.

I'm no doctor, but a brief bit of poking around shows that your assumption is just flat wrong.

[Winterless]

Epinephrine is just another fancy name for adrenaline. So people in rage have adrenaline rushes. Have I poked enough?

When I get stung I have to take shots of epinephrine... RAWR, I RAGE!

[Kryos]

Stuff

I wish just one GDB thread could go without someone resorting to strikes at the author instead of ideas.  Really is a pity people didn't take up Olgaris on his offer. (hey look, I can use pathos too!) But seriously, I really do wish it.  So, ignoring the blatant ad hominem fallacy laced into what you wrote, we'll just take a look here.

First, you agree, there's a distinction between adrenal release versus the flight or fight instinct.  Glad we could come to terms there.  Malik the raider, he's probably got some adrenaline pumping, but Amos the might-be-dead, he's well beyond a adrenal release.  His body is simply ignoring everything save the need to live.  Especially true of Malik is really a mekillot and Amos is a unlucky elf. 

So, there's a distinction, and one is far more severe then the other.  Well, maybe.  I read the article Synth quoted from, and its not as relevant as he'd like, I fear(doping trained athletes).  I'll have to get back to it later, as I'm not able to access the school's massive medical db's from where I am now.  This is a problem because a few standard searches couldn't turn up any studies on bodily performance increases during the flight or flight reflex.  I'm fairly inclined to believe the reflex allows people to ignore previous fatigue for short periods of time.  We'll see if I find anything.  Now, why did I write it in the first place?  Synth said this isn't some movie where the good guy gets an adrenaline rush and saves everyone.  Well no, he's not saving everyone, but he sure as shit has a shot at saving himself.  Right, point made, I think.

Regarding the sand/desert environment.  Zwalenburg, with a whole pile of sources regarding heat/extreme conditions/fatigue writes in a medical journal that(surprise surprise) its lack of water that makes us exhausted.  Dehydration is what makes you unable to move, not just walking around the desert.  To further kick this in the ass, I asked my old friend, a civilian but former Sergeant Frist Class.  He says, "You do need to hydrate, and wet sand sucks.  Dry sand isn't that bad.  Wet sand is like really bad snow or mud.  Dry sand, more work than normal but not that bad." Eagle Scout turned infantry man who hiked around the desert for the lolz, that pretty much sells it for me. Now, imagine people who have lived for centuries if not more in a world full of suck and heat.  They are going to handle it a lot smoother. 

So, to sum it up.  If this is done right, people get tired, they want to rest.  But its nearly impossible to make someone literally 'unable to move' from fatigue unless they are poorly nurished and stressed over days time(I hate to say this, but look at the various 'death marches' humans have inflicted on each other.  People walked till they died, in cases.  Or ancient runners who would run till they delivered a message, then some times die).  What really happens is they slow, they need lots of water.   What really gets you when plodding on foot from one place to another is improper protection from the elements, injury, or lack of hydration.

This applies to this discussion quite simply, in the end.  The code handles dehydration well, fatigue in combat well, but handles fatigue and overland travel poorly.  Not being able to move while in 'walk' is simple bollocks.  I'll say it again, since we've been told major changes won't go into place in 1.arm, I hope this concept is sincerely evaluated in 2.arm.

[Aaron Goulet]

I'm not a fan of suddenly getting a burst of additional stamina points when attempting to flee at 0, because it renders <certain IC things> useless.  That, and I see poorly-played scenarios happening, like, "Shit son, you're tired?  Let me beat you with this sparring sword to give you an adrenaline rush!"  In fact, I'm not too fond of any change in this regard altogether.

Opinions and speculation aside, however, if something like this were to make it into the game, I'd like to see it done via one of the two solutions below:

1. If you still have stamina, but not enough to move a room away under normal circumstances, maybe you could flee ONE more room, completely depleting your stamina altogether.  This would only be usable in combat situations.

2. You can flee from combat without stamina, but it consumes health instead, representing the strain you're putting on your body.

[X-D]

If it did, it wouldn't take less than a game-hour to travel the game-equivalent of HALFWAY AROUND THE PLANET.

I'm only going to comment on this because it has been some years since anybody has asked or staff has commented on the subject.

The entire game world that we play in is called "The known world" It is only a tiny tiny section of the entire world. About the size of Connecticut.

Which, according to Wiki is about 70 miles wide and 110 miles long.

The transaltion would be that going from the southern most end of the known (Somewhere in the silt sea) To Luirs (roughly the middle) would be between 35 and 45 miles.

Which is a far cry from "Halfway around the world" Assuming the world is close to the size of earth, halfway around would be around 9,000 miles.

[RogueGunslinger]

There were no ad-hominem  attacks in evil_erdlu's post.


Thank you.

[evil_erdlu]

I wish just one GDB thread could go without someone resorting to strikes at the author instead of ideas.  Really is a pity people didn't take up Olgaris on his offer. (hey look, I can use pathos too!) But seriously, I really do wish it.  So, ignoring the blatant ad hominem fallacy laced into what you wrote, we'll just take a look here.

And the attack is? Saying totally the same thing you said to some other poster? Quoting you? Strikes at the author? Where? Read the first page. I liked your idea. When 'adrenaline rush' is out of it. Adrenaline rush is the illogical part of it.

First, you agree, there's a distinction between adrenal release versus the flight or fight instinct.  Glad we could come to terms there.  Malik the raider, he's probably got some adrenaline pumping, but Amos the might-be-dead, he's well beyond a adrenal release.  His body is simply ignoring everything save the need to live.  Especially true of Malik is really a mekillot and Amos is a unlucky elf.

Nuh uh.. No sir, I do not agree. Adrenaline rush is... as the name implies, "adrenaline" rush. A lot of things from fear of life to unstoppable rage triggers it. Adrenaline rush is not 'only' fight-or-flight instinct. And second, have you ever read anything about one person beating another to death? I read many. Why weren't they saved by 'adrenaline rush'? Because, adrenaline rush is not 'hand of god'.. It's not a belt of giant strength. It makes you last because muscles may last a bit more with more oxygen and less feel of the stingy lactic acid. It doesn't make you cover the whole desert.

So, there's a distinction, and one is far more severe then the other.  Well, maybe.  I read the article Synth quoted from, and its not as relevant as he'd like, I fear(doping trained athletes).  I'll have to get back to it later, as I'm not able to access the school's massive medical db's from where I am now.  This is a problem because a few standard searches couldn't turn up any studies on bodily performance increases during the flight or flight reflex.  I'm fairly inclined to believe the reflex allows people to ignore previous fatigue for short periods of time.  We'll see if I find anything.  Now, why did I write it in the first place?  Synth said this isn't some movie where the good guy gets an adrenaline rush and saves everyone.  Well no, he's not saving everyone, but he sure as shit has a shot at saving himself.  Right, point made, I think.

Find some, on your own. "google", "yahoo", even "altavista"... Type them in your browser then hit CTRL+Enter. Your school's massive medical db may wait. Read only the ones which have an adress of "edu".

Regarding the sand/desert environment.  Zwalenburg, with a whole pile of sources regarding heat/extreme conditions/fatigue writes in a medical journal that(surprise surprise) its lack of water that makes us exhausted.  Dehydration is what makes you unable to move, not just walking around the desert.  To further kick this in the ass, I asked my old friend, a civilian but former Sergeant Frist Class.  He says, "You do need to hydrate, and wet sand sucks.  Dry sand isn't that bad.  Wet sand is like really bad snow or mud.  Dry sand, more work than normal but not that bad." Eagle Scout turned infantry man who hiked around the desert for the lolz, that pretty much sells it for me. Now, imagine people who have lived for centuries if not more in a world full of suck and heat.  They are going to handle it a lot smoother.

Yes, desert dries up your throat, damn it even dries up your eyeballs. That hurts, you feel like your head's swelling even if you take sips from your huge bottle of water thrice a minute. Zwanenburg, you meant, I guess. Near Amsterdam? Where average heat is what, 25 Celcius degrees? 'Wet' sand? When you spit in Sahara, it evaporates in moments. I'm speaking about a true desert; with camels, yellow scorpions, people gowned in bedsheets etc.. (It's a joke, no offense to arabians.. I'm a muslim too, don't shoot me :p )

I had to attend to a doctor there for two days because my migraine would not stop. And I'm told dehydration gives you the headache in a desert area and you dehydrate, as you drink, even if you drink as much water as you can in a desert. So, desert tires you out, be it dehydration or walking, right? What's the difference?

So, to sum it up.  If this is done right, people get tired, they want to rest.  But its nearly impossible to make someone literally 'unable to move' from fatigue unless they are poorly nurished and stressed over days time(I hate to say this, but look at the various 'death marches' humans have inflicted on each other.  People walked till they died, in cases.  Or ancient runners who would run till they delivered a message, then some times die).  What really happens is they slow, they need lots of water.   What really gets you when plodding on foot from one place to another is improper protection from the elements, injury, or lack of hydration.

Yes, I agree.. A person may be forced to walk slower and slower, but someone seasoned in desert atmosphere - not a fatass tourist trying to take a hike like me - would walk. As I mentioned in the first page, I'm all in for having our movement rate be in correlation with our remaining stamina. What I don't agree is, adrenaline rushes and never being completely fatigued. After you tire yourself out past the limits, you must be exhausted for days, if worse doesn't happen. Anyone working out in sports knows that.

[Khorm]

What is far more important to me than wondering whether or not it is "realistic" to flee just one more, or two more rooms, is... is this really a necessary addition to the MUD?

I think it's dangerous to take things away from the MUD that have the potential to get you killed - the more you start doing that, the more it's going to become a MUSH.. which will be sorta like the consistency of the vomit I produce at the idea of that. Why do we need code put in place to make absolutely certain that you survive that dangerous encounter, whilst eliminating any sort of personal responsibility for having put your character in that spot to begin with?  You do something stupid, you die (sometimes).

Having said that, I don't think I've -ever- died to any critter that tracks. Well, I've never died due to the fact that they tracked me down and ate me... headshots and lost links don't count. It probably isn't wise to walk around with your character ~10 stamina points, and if you die due to this, I'd chalk it up to the learning curve. If you're walking around with anywhere from half to max stamina and can't find a way to evade the creature that's basically walking in a straight line til it finds you, chalk it up to the learning curve.

Failing that, spec app a mul.

[RogueGunslinger]

I'm in the line of reasoning that making the "non-tracking" beasts easier to flee away from (because that's the only thing this change would do) is bad as well.

[Zoltan]

If it did, it wouldn't take less than a game-hour to travel the game-equivalent of HALFWAY AROUND THE PLANET.

I'm only going to comment on this because it has been some years since anybody has asked or staff has commented on the subject.

The entire game world that we play in is called "The known world" It is only a tiny tiny section of the entire world. About the size of Connecticut.

Which, according to Wiki is about 70 miles wide and 110 miles long.

The transaltion would be that going from the southern most end of the known (Somewhere in the silt sea) To Luirs (roughly the middle) would be between 35 and 45 miles.

Which is a far cry from "Halfway around the world" Assuming the world is close to the size of earth, halfway around would be around 9,000 miles.

Actually, didn't the staff say at one point that the Known as a whole covers about the area of Ohio?

[BlackMagic0]

The state's total area is 41,330 sq mi (107,044 sq km), of which land comprises 41,004 sq mi (106,201 sq km) and inland water 326 sq mi (823 sq km). Ohio extends about 210 mi (338 km) E-W; its maximum N-S extension is 230 mi (370 km).

If so the KNOWN world is roughly 250 miles e-w and 250 miles n-s?

Assuming would not count the sea, since not land. Which could be up to a couple hundred more miles wide and long. o.0

[Kryos]

So, you think there's no difference between say, the adrenaline I had pumping in my veins before my team played for the district title and say, the reaction that shuts off your mind and reduces you to pure instinct?

Additionally, I never claimed that's going to let you trek the desert.  I claimed it'd let you spring out of tiredness to try and evade a mega-predator or psychopath, you know, as per the thread's op.  I also just added a few grumbles like, how its inane you become sessile after walking for an hour with no additional circumstances.

Additionally, to link it together for you.  The name I offered is an author.   Next, if you've got water when you're getting dehydrated, you can keep walking.  Considering we've been sending soldiers into the desert for more then a decade now, its amazing the plethora of studies that have been done there.  And, as for your patronizing about seraches, yeah, wonder what that is?  

No, not scholar.google.com not regular google, not even the ever amazing(lol) Bing brings up studies on the effects of flight or fight in fatigued subjects.  I guessed based on my returns its not a wildly popular subject for research.  But I didn't spend more then two minutes looking, honestly, I'd rather use a superior resource.

[X-D]

Shrug, either way, 110, 250, still a wee bit smaller then 18k+

I find it more realistic to be smaller considering how fast you travel and the numbers of people in the area.

[Fathi]

I find it unrealistic that someone would be 'too tired' to try and escape the moving house of doom or psychotic armed-to-the-teeth killing machine coming for them.

You can still try to flee. The amount of stamina points you have left will determine whether your attempt is successful. If you do not have enough stamina points, you don't have to interpret it as simply being tired enough that you stand there and get munched on. It could be your PC is so tired that he simply can't move quickly enough to escape. I think the code handles this in a satisfactory, realistic manner.

[spawnloser]

First, iirc, I believe the staff have said the Known World is about the size of Michigan minus the upper peninsula... which isn't far off from Ohio, in the grand scheme of things.  Still, the point remains, mister Strawman, that any distance in this game is hardly half-way around the planet.

Second, this 'adrenalin rush' idea would do what?  It would give you enough stamina to move a few rooms?  Oh, good job.  Realistically, you get that far and should then be even more exhausted and still easy prey for the individuals trying to kill you... because it is unrealistic to move 2n1e and thus be proof from attack by non-tracking NPCs, which can work with the code restrictions.  You should die.  This 'adrenalin rush' idea would only be a way to unrealistically avoid NPCs.

[Lizzie]

The point remains, that if it's the size of Michigan, OR Ohio, OR Connecticut, the argument of "realism" is invalid because walking the entire state of Connecticut, Ohio, or Michigan would not take the average human being the game-equivalent of a single day. Especially if you pick any of those states up and stick them in the middle of the Mohave Desert, toss a few salt flats in the middle, and add a silt sea at the end, with constant, sudden, 4-hour-long sandstorms you would have to walk -through- to get from point A to point B.

Halfway around the world, all the way through Connecicut, I mean how many nits can a person pick? If your character is walking many many many MANY MANY miles through desert and scrub wilderness with big bad monsters that he has to watch out for, and mean nasty raiders who he has to watch out for, while carrying a pack filled with stuff, while using a weapon and/or shield he may/may not have any idea how to use...

then it wouldn't "realistically" take a game-day to get through an area approximately the size of Ohio. Connecticut, or Michigan, on foot. Further, if one were to ride a horse (or game equivalent) that size, said mount would also "realistically" not be able to get through the entire state without rest, food, and water.

At some point, said walker and/or said mount would -need- to rest. Would require the activity of -not travelling- for a length of time. With or without said adrenaline rush, the body can only go so far. At some point, the body will simply stop.

[evil_erdlu]

So, you think there's no difference between say, the adrenaline I had pumping in my veins before my team played for the district title and say, the reaction that shuts off your mind and reduces you to pure instinct?

One way or other.. Adrenaline in blood, adrenaline doing the work. They are the same.. So.. yep.

Edited to add: Learned reflexes.. Spinal cord doing to work instead of brain.... A footballer can reach to the edge and play with a huge rush of adrenaline, using his learned reflexes to control the game, being even unaware of his surroundings in his high-brain functions. Let me tell before you try to dig deeper into this primal instict stuff, because every time I read it something inside me shouts "Super robot monkey team hyper force go!"

Additionally, I never claimed that's going to let you trek the desert.  I claimed it'd let you spring out of tiredness to try and evade a mega-predator or psychopath, you know, as per the thread's op.  I also just added a few grumbles like, how its inane you become sessile after walking for an hour with no additional circumstances.

So the predator will let you because you could suddenly charge with adrenaline instead of crumpling? I'm sure they'll pursue, they'll receive the excitement of the pursue - adrenaline. Why wouldn't the pursuer have adrenaline in its blood?

Additionally, to link it together for you.  The name I offered is an author.

So? I see it and raise: Tolkien. I win now? [Note: I managed to debug a buggy customer program moments ago. I'm cheerful and in a joking mood. But really. Just because an author said "Yes, in our semi-desert I can walk easily and without tiring.", I won't start to believe in Adrenaline Rush, the savior.]

Next, if you've got water when you're getting dehydrated, you can keep walking.  Considering we've been sending soldiers into the desert for more then a decade now, its amazing the plethora of studies that have been done there.

I should still insist a desert can be bothersome, with water, even if you sip thrice a minute.

And, as for your patronizing about seraches, yeah, wonder what that is?  

No, not scholar.google.com not regular google, not even the ever amazing(lol) Bing brings up studies on the effects of flight or fight in fatigued subjects.  I guessed based on my returns its not a wildly popular subject for research.  But I didn't spend more then two minutes looking, honestly, I'd rather use a superior resource.

I should repeat. Only read ones ending with 'edu'.. They are.. y'know.. universities. With libraries full of massive docs! Or you end up learning how 'adrenaline rush' warrior skill works in some H&S MUDs. Internet is a cesspool. One needs google-fu to go through all the junk.

[FantasyWriter]

Second, this 'adrenalin rush' idea would do what?  It would give you enough stamina to move a few rooms? 

There is one an instance of the code where this does happen (getting a sudden stam burst to keep you from dying).
It's saved me at least twice before. 

[RogueGunslinger]

That has to do with thirst code, not stamina code.

[spawnloser]

@Lizzie:
- Distance across, 250 miles.  Half the distance across, 125.  Average walking speed of an adult human, 6 miles an hour (real time).  2/3 of the day is 16 hours worth of travel time.  16*6=96 miles can be traveled in one day.  Sorry.  You're right, someone could only make it 96 of the 125 miles, 3/4 of the way.  Yeah, I don't think this is too bad, actually.  Calm down.

@FantasyWriter:
- Yes, but that wasn't getting your ass away from someone trying to kill you that should follow and continue to try to do so.  I'm sorry, but I'm against the 'adrenalin surge gives you stamina' idea because I can detect no other reason to have this than so that people can twink.

[RogueGunslinger]

I'm in the line of reasoning that making the "non-tracking" beasts easier to flee away from (because that's the only thing this change would do) is bad as well.