Skills/Spells advancement for non-mundanes

[Cerelum]

Sometimes it appears that the biggest obstacles to playing any of those roles is knowing what is too much while still advancing said roles so you're not a ten days played whatever who can't do anything with his mystical powers of whatever realm.
Everyone already knows there are coded limitations that are put in to stop someone from doing something like so:

Hide
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Hide
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Etc etc.  However, it appears that we all have varying thoughts on what is twinkish and what is not.  To give an example, I personally think it's twinkish to notice your stun going back up after scan wears off and instantly going SCAN ON.  However, if the same person went, emote looks around after a second, keeping his eyes on his surroundings, scan on, that at least gives me the observer more than a coded effect OVER AND OVER during the term of fifteen minutes in the same room with what I like to call, "Super paranoid of the twink variety".

Mages by design, at least the design I've experienced are much different in terms of playing the game than are Mundanes, mostly because of how fast a mage's magickal aptitude (mana) returns to him or her.  A warrior who goes out and gets tired or his mount gets tired is forced to wait varying degrees for those effects to lessen, (how tired they or their mounts are) but with a mage this really isn't true all the time.  So where the Warrior is codedly stuck waiting on CODE to replenish (Stun HP Movement) a mage is only really stuck waiting on one (MANA) to return.

I've been accused of being a twink a variety of ways, but on Mages I seem to get this the most, so I have a solution that may work and shouldn't be too difficult to code.

How about if there were a code that checked how often you have casted magick during PLAYED TIME, so that if you got a little bit too crazy with it, the game will send you a message like perhaps:

>Your mind is growing a little tired from all the magickal exertions you're putting it through.

>Your eyelids droop, your mental exhaustion is starting to drain on your physical body.

>You can hardly concentrate on simple tasks after so much magickal experimentation.

This way, there will be less people, myself included who will be surprised when they think they are playing a character totally fine and have a staff member say they are twinking out of the blue.  Because if they are twinking, they will definitely know it based on the ic signs they've received to that effect.

I feel how the current stance on what's twinkish and not is so subjective and one sided (staff perspective means all, player means nothing) this would be a good way to make it even across the board.
This way you eliminate staff saying one person is twinking when another is doing the exact same thing, while still allowing people a chance to advance themselves codedly as well as socially.  No matter what type of player you are, there are very few who want to codedly suck forever.

I would type more, but I have to run, I'll update this later.

Jarod

[Gimfalisette]

Easier solution: Take responsibility for the way you play. Perhaps your mage practices in the temple for 2 to 3 hours each IC morning and spends the rest of the day and night doing other things--this would not be twinking. Or perhaps your mage practices while hunting, which is conducted in a realistic and non-twinking manner.

You can put the limits on yourself, rather than asking for staff or code to do it. In fact, I would argue that one of the basic ideas behind playing karma guilds is that you have agreed to put limits on yourself, for the good of the game.

[jhunter]

Mages by design, at least the design I've experienced are much different in terms of playing the game than are Mundanes, mostly because of how fast a mage's magickal aptitude (mana) returns to him or her.  A warrior who goes out and gets tired or his mount gets tired is forced to wait varying degrees for those effects to lessen, (how tired they or their mounts are) but with a mage this really isn't true all the time.  So where the Warrior is codedly stuck waiting on CODE to replenish (Stun HP Movement) a mage is only really stuck waiting on one (MANA) to return.

Sorry, this just isn't always true. Your stating a best case scenario for the mage, not an average scenario. I've been codedly stuck with mages many many times waiting for mana to regen -and- waiting for movement to regen at the same time. I can't go into all the variables on the GDB but you're just plain wrong about this one.

[Riev]

Easier solution: Take responsibility for the way you play. Perhaps your mage practices in the temple for 2 to 3 hours each IC morning and spends the rest of the day and night doing other things--this would not be twinking. Or perhaps your mage practices while hunting, which is conducted in a realistic and non-twinking manner.

You can put the limits on yourself, rather than asking for staff or code to do it. In fact, I would argue that one of the basic ideas behind playing karma guilds is that you have agreed to put limits on yourself, for the good of the game.

I don't often agree with Gimf, but on here she is SPOT on. If you are being seen as twinky, perhaps you should be responsibile for your own actions.

[jhunter]

Easier solution: Take responsibility for the way you play. Perhaps your mage practices in the temple for 2 to 3 hours each IC morning and spends the rest of the day and night doing other things--this would not be twinking. Or perhaps your mage practices while hunting, which is conducted in a realistic and non-twinking manner.

You can put the limits on yourself, rather than asking for staff or code to do it. In fact, I would argue that one of the basic ideas behind playing karma guilds is that you have agreed to put limits on yourself, for the good of the game.

I don't often agree with Gimf, but on here she is SPOT on. If you are being seen as twinky, perhaps you should be responsibile for your own actions.

Oh yeah, I agree with this too.

[Aaron Goulet]

Easier solution: Take responsibility for the way you play. Perhaps your mage practices in the temple for 2 to 3 hours each IC morning and spends the rest of the day and night doing other things--this would not be twinking. Or perhaps your mage practices while hunting, which is conducted in a realistic and non-twinking manner.

You can put the limits on yourself, rather than asking for staff or code to do it. In fact, I would argue that one of the basic ideas behind playing karma guilds is that you have agreed to put limits on yourself, for the good of the game.

I don't often agree with Gimf, but on here she is SPOT on. If you are being seen as twinky, perhaps you should be responsibile for your own actions.

Oh yeah, I agree with this too.

This is how I see it as well, so I'm jumping on the bandwagon.  I would also like to add that if the staff deems that someone playing a non-mundane is doing a poor job of it, it's entirely possible that the staff will issue a warning, or in extreme cases, revoke a player's karma.

I don't think Cerelum's idea is bad, though.  I'd probably simplify it to reducing the rate of mana recovery after intensive casting rather than displaying messages like those proposed.

[Tzurahro]

I don't believe responsible players either want nor need a limiting, defined roadway with code-echoed guardrails.  Wide-open vistas and common sense are my preferences.

[X-D]

I think such a code would be more of a staff guardrail.

The problem I have had with mages and staff thinking something is twinkish is that no two staffers think alike on the subject first of all. Secondly, often what they see is a very short span and taken out of context.

I have full branched mages in obscenely short amounts of playtime, at least 2 of them never even "practiced" Only used the spells when they needed them.

I'm not saying I am for the idea, but I do see where the OP is coming from.

[jhunter]

never even "practiced" Only used the spells when they needed them.

That's my favorite way of going about it, mainly with un-gemmed. Using what you have to survive.

[Reiloth]

I do see where the OP is coming from as well, but I think for higher karma roles like Magickers, Sorcerers, and Mindbenders, such 'twinkery' is usually speculation rather than non-fiction.

Sure -- I've known of plenty of Magickers that do nothing but sit in their Temple and practice spells. Or at least, that's what I think, until I see them sitting at a bar getting little to no positive interaction (As they should). These higher karma roles, for the most part, are pretty isolated, especially when you get into the realm of escaped Mul, Sorcerer, Nilazi, and Mindbender.

I tend to think that if a player thinks another player is not playing their character responsibly (Whether that means they camp out in the sparring chamber and wait for dawn every morning, or if they do nothing but spam cast in their Temples, etc.) it's worth a try at a player complaint -- But again, I don't think many can claim they know the whole picture behind a PC's habits or solo-rp. I believe it's up to the staff to decide if that player is playing irresponsibly, and not through hard-coded barriers, but through monitoring and interaction both IC and OOC.

[Cerelum]

Easier solution: Take responsibility for the way you play. Perhaps your mage practices in the temple for 2 to 3 hours each IC morning and spends the rest of the day and night doing other things--this would not be twinking. Or perhaps your mage practices while hunting, which is conducted in a realistic and non-twinking manner.

You can put the limits on yourself, rather than asking for staff or code to do it. In fact, I would argue that one of the basic ideas behind playing karma guilds is that you have agreed to put limits on yourself, for the good of the game.

Were it over a year since the character in question I could totally outline the lifestyle, the restrictions, the actions he took other than casting and the interactions he's had in these times.  But as it's not, I will tell you that I have restricted myself and it appears that fortunately (And unfortunately) I happened upon a character with awesome stats which affect magickers.  So I really think that someone looking purely at my spell list, or my ability in each spell, does not have an accurate accounting of what I've done with the character.

When I get into a role, like the role which spawned this discussion, I play A LOT, I play sometimes 10 hours on a day off if I'm not being bugged by external people (Girlfriend, events, friends etc).  If you practice from dawn to noon ever ic day for 10 hours a day RL, that equates into MAD amounts of practice, but not what I would consider overkill at all due to the way that time passes icly during that time.

Add in the time a player has to play per day, add in the strength of certain stats that will go unnamed in learning magickal spells and that could be a grand difference into a player with less time to play and a player with shitty or average stats, and you have a large variable as to what is possible.

I don't believe responsible players either want nor need a limiting, defined roadway with code-echoed guardrails.  Wide-open vistas and common sense are my preferences.

I don't want coded guardrails, but I also don't want to give weeks/months or years of my life on a character to hear from staff they think I twinked it because I had more time to play than the average player per sitting.

Mages by design, at least the design I've experienced are much different in terms of playing the game than are Mundanes, mostly because of how fast a mage's magickal aptitude (mana) returns to him or her.  A warrior who goes out and gets tired or his mount gets tired is forced to wait varying degrees for those effects to lessen, (how tired they or their mounts are) but with a mage this really isn't true all the time.  So where the Warrior is codedly stuck waiting on CODE to replenish (Stun HP Movement) a mage is only really stuck waiting on one (MANA) to return.

Sorry, this just isn't always true. Your stating a best case scenario for the mage, not an average scenario. I've been codedly stuck with mages many many times waiting for mana to regen -and- waiting for movement to regen at the same time. I can't go into all the variables on the GDB but you're just plain wrong about this one.

Again, I can't get into specifics, but after searching the forums for a proper response to this I've seen that this has already been posted in the past.

"Different elementalists renew magickal energy in different environments that make sense to their element"  Just for the reason the Ruk Temple is underground, the Wind Temple is up in the air.

So it is reasonable, and logical to understand that someone who plays 100% of the time in their "best" magicker spot, will advance at tremendously faster rates then someone who does not and has to deal with their minimum regenerations.

Summing up the point of this topic and discussion:

I'm not complaining about any particular staff member or policy regarding magick, but I do think that we need to have some type of definition as to what is acceptable and what is not.

Statements from staff and players in regards to complaint from other players should be presented with some type of example as to what they think is wrong, some type of log of twinkish behavior so that when the complaint is received from a staff member the player isn't left going, "Well shit, what did I do wrong?"

I know when I submit player complaints, if possible I try to attach a log of what said player did, why I think it's twinkish and go on from there.  I don't have the ability to just point and go, "This guy sucks."  And truthfully, without any malice that's sometimes how it feels when you receive feedback (even inadvertant feedback they didn't intend you to have) from staff.

[Gimfalisette]

So I really think that someone looking purely at my spell list, or my ability in each spell, does not have an accurate accounting of what I've done with the character.

If you think that the staff doesn't have an accurate accounting of what you've done in character, then it is your responsibility to email them--proactively, preferably. Weekly or bi-weekly reports are not the sole purview of sponsored leader types; if your PC is not clanned then you can certainly write in to the staff in charge of independent PCs.

Thinking ahead and looking at your own playstyle and how it interacts with code, then proactively communicating with staff about what you're doing, will make a world of difference in how you are perceived by them.

[Cerelum]

So I really think that someone looking purely at my spell list, or my ability in each spell, does not have an accurate accounting of what I've done with the character.

If you think that the staff doesn't have an accurate accounting of what you've done in character, then it is your responsibility to email them--proactively, preferably. Weekly or bi-weekly reports are not the sole purview of sponsored leader types; if your PC is not clanned then you can certainly write in to the staff in charge of independent PCs.

Thinking ahead and looking at your own playstyle and how it interacts with code, then proactively communicating with staff about what you're doing, will make a world of difference in how you are perceived by them.

Well put Gimf, but assuming you do all that and you still get the above issue?  What then do you recommend?

I will say that on an unrelated matter with a spell bug, I do not log all my time in Armageddon, so I guess I can always submit logs if someone asks.

[Reiloth]

I have to go on record and absolutely agree with Gimf here.

If you are independent -- Email the staff at independents@armageddon.org

ALL of my interactions with the independent staff have been timely, inquisitive, and encouraging. They have also asked questions of me at time that force me to delve deeper into what my character actually is, or why they are a certain way.

Just because you are not in a clan doesn't mean there aren't staff who care about you!!

[Cerelum]

I have to go on record and absolutely agree with Gimf here.

If you are independent -- Email the staff at independents@armageddon.org

ALL of my interactions with the independent staff have been timely, inquisitive, and encouraging. They have also asked questions of me at time that force me to delve deeper into what my character actually is, or why they are a certain way.

Just because you are not in a clan doesn't mean there aren't staff who care about you!!

I can not get into specifics, but I am not independent.

[Reiloth]

I have to go on record and absolutely agree with Gimf here.

If you are independent -- Email the staff at independents@armageddon.org

ALL of my interactions with the independent staff have been timely, inquisitive, and encouraging. They have also asked questions of me at time that force me to delve deeper into what my character actually is, or why they are a certain way.

Just because you are not in a clan doesn't mean there aren't staff who care about you!!

I can not get into specifics, but I am not independent.

Uh...That's all and well, but i'm sure there are staff that apply to you. You are either independent, or, well, dependent. Send them updates, write bios, keep them informed, and I sincerely doubt that your actions will be considered twinky unless, well, they are.

[Cerelum]

I have to go on record and absolutely agree with Gimf here.

If you are independent -- Email the staff at independents@armageddon.org

ALL of my interactions with the independent staff have been timely, inquisitive, and encouraging. They have also asked questions of me at time that force me to delve deeper into what my character actually is, or why they are a certain way.

Just because you are not in a clan doesn't mean there aren't staff who care about you!!

I can not get into specifics, but I am not independent.

Uh...That's all and well, but i'm sure there are staff that apply to you. You are either independent, or, well, dependent. Send them updates, write bios, keep them informed, and I sincerely doubt that your actions will be considered twinky unless, well, they are.

I'm going totally off topic here a bit, but that's one of the hardest parts about this game I think, the fact you can't display all the facts on your side of things for peer review.  I've submitted five or six updates on my character, as well as one plot in the time of ohhh 3 weeks or so.  If that is not good enough, I don't think I have the bookkeeping knowledge to play a magicker without being called a twink.

[Gimfalisette]

I'm going totally off topic here a bit, but that's one of the hardest parts about this game I think, the fact you can't display all the facts on your side of things for peer review.  I've submitted five or six updates on my character, as well as one plot in the time of ohhh 3 weeks or so.  If that is not good enough, I don't think I have the bookkeeping knowledge to play a magicker without being called a twink.

This really sounds like an issue for you to discuss with the relevant staff. Ask them directly and politely: What is it that I am currently doing which is leading to me or my behavior being perceived as twinkish?

[musashi]

I have to agree with Gimf here ... which is a shame because I disagree with her most of the time if only for recreational purposes.

Also, to quote X-D's old addage ... emote =/= roleplay. You could be emoting up a storm as your PC crafts for 2 IG days in a row straight without pause for food, water, or rest. Staff might still consider that twinkish unless there is an in game justification to explain why your character is acting like a man possessed.

Where as on the other side of the coin, you could not thow out a single emote at all over the course of 2 IG days ... but if your character is keeping to a realistic schedule (forage here in the morning, stop for breakfest, craft a bit in the afternoon, have a drink at night and then nip off for a nap somewhere) then staff is apt not to say much to you aside from perhaps a suggestion that you take a moment every now and then to express what your PC is doing/thinking/feeling. But they wouldn't say you're twinking ... because your PC's actions are in line with realistic expectations.

[Cerelum]

Again I still think there should be some type of measureable definition of twinkdom in these things.  I'm not worried about myself, I half the time am my own worst enemies, but I don't want someone else to go through the issues I have done who doesn't have the stubbornness I have and says, "Fuck this game" and rolls out.

As much as we like to leave some things up for the player to regulate, when it becomes an issue that is so heavily debated as what is being twinkish, what is too fast, what is enough, what it too long, what is too short.

We need some type of regulatory definitive position on what is wrong and what is right, so it's clearly defined as "ok" and "not okay."

Staff has taken sides on similar issues before in regards to thinks like hiding and sneaking, invisibility code etc etc.  Why is this so, pardon my bluntness, limply documented?

[Gimfalisette]

I don't want someone else to go through the issues I have done who doesn't have the stubbornness I have and says, "Fuck this game" and rolls out.

Perhaps if we were talking about a mundane guild issue. But we're not; we're talking about karma-restricted guilds. In which case, again...player responsibility blah blah.

[Tzurahro]

This topic has gone from a suggestion for possible code to a something a bit more specific and individual-based that is probably more positively and constructively handled through other avenues of communication.

Can we keep the discussion focused on specific code, including its benefits or drawbacks, in this forum, please?

[Cerelum]

This topic has gone from a suggestion for possible code to a something a bit more specific and individual-based that is probably more positively and constructively handled through other avenues of communication.

Can we keep the discussion focused on specific code, including its benefits or drawbacks, in this forum, please?

Yes, back on the subject...

If some type of code were implimented that gave clear and concise guidelines on what is good and what is excess we would have no real issues any further from people getting chastized for this or that, because if they do, they are blatently doing it, because they saw the coded message that stated such.

Now understand, I'm not saying the code should cripple the player or HINDER the player codedly, just that it should suggest, something only visible to the player, something icly that drops  a hint, "Hey you're doing it too often.", then if there are cases of dire need, where you need to cast a spell a bunch, or you need to call your magick a lot in combat or whatever, you are not stopped but you also have the recourse if someone looks and says, "Damn joe the nilazi sure did cast lots of spells in a short time." you can say, "Well, look at this log, I was fighting for my life and helping out my Defiler pal Amos."

Nothing but good could come from this change really.

[Pheonix]

We need some type of regulatory definitive position on what is wrong and what is right, so it's clearly defined as "ok" and "not okay."

Why do we need guidelines for players who should already have a decent idea of what's acceptable and not when playing mundane characters?

However. I do find there to be a case when considering some of the spells which non-mundanes are able to wield, and that's probably where any 'guidelines' would help for players. There could be a spell that conjures up piles of shit, but the player who may not have any experience with the spell before wouldn't know that casting it can potentially cover the whole city in it, not only the room that they are practicing in. Or any other number of IG secret spells out there, which an ignorant player may not know what kind of effects their decisions are making or could make on the game world.

In these cases, I think better guidelines would do the players and the game some good, if only if it's updating the helpfiles on that spell and -clearly- showing to the player what the consequences may be, not so much ICly but perhaps more on an OOC level in some cases.

[Synthesis]

How about:  instead of playing balls-to-the-wall, as close to the powergaming line as possible,  you just chill and enjoy the game in some other way?

Speaking from my own experience, you must've been doing something incredibly egregious to attract attention, because yo, I tend to branch spells and skills with a quickness, and I don't think I've ever gotten a nastygram for it.

Except that one time.  But I swear I was just testing to see if something was broken, so I could bugrep it.