Friendly Elves - Do they exist?

[John]

In this thread I made a comment about friendly elves, which Intrepid replied to. I'm moving the discussion to this thread because I'm trying to avoid derailing the original thread (I have a tendency to derail threads  )

Blackmail is classic Armageddon. If you haven't been involved in a blackmail plot, or at the very least witnessed blackmail happen, you've only cracked the surface of what is the game called Armageddon. Its like saying "elves are too friendly." If elves are friendly (as in, are acting nice and it isn't some extravagant plot to steal something from you  ) something's wrong.

Hey, wait...what?  Elves can't have the same expression range of emotions that humans do?  I wholeheartedly disagree.  If I've just landed a huge amount of money from an Oashi noble, I'm going to be smiling and in a good mood.  Hell, I might even buy the other humans and elves in the bar a round of drinks, just to spread said Oash's sid around to people who'd never otherwise get to partake in it.

It's backhanded generosity, sure, and it might not be the last time that day that I'm stealing from someone, and you should be suspicious of me being "all smiles"...but don't forget that no race in our game is that pigeonholed as to never be friendly with someone to the side of them, or never be in a good mood.  That's really two dimensional.

My reply is in the next post (to avoid cluttering this one).

[janeshephard]

They're suspicious of non elves and have tests of loyalty. The documentation doesn't say elves are anti-social to other races.

[Pale Horse]

I can see a "friendly" elf.  Charitable, going out of their way to help another, buying someone a drink, they can all do this..but with elves, you can't help but automatically be suspicious.  Which may or may not be what they're after.

Having said that, I honestly believe that there can be genuinely friendly elves.  Thing is, they still have the compulsion to steal and try another loyalty and trust.  Maybe the theoretically friendly elf buys everyone a round of drinks when in the above mentioned generous mood, and does it regularly.  He gets the enjoyment of doing so..but might be purposefully lowering the defenses of the gullible at the bar into thinking "he's not such a bad necker, after all," while scouting out those that might actually be worth testing for trust.

[Hot_Dancer]

They're suspicious of non elves and have tests of loyalty. The documentation doesn't say elves are anti-social to other races.

Incorrect. Elves are suspicious of everyone not part of their family unit/tribe. They sometimes distrust other elves even more.

Friendly is a little misleading. An elf is perfectly capable of being friendly if it offers an opportunity to learn more about a potential
ally, victim or enemy. The old, "You catch more flies with honey than vinegar." routine.

Genuinely friendly to someone outside their tribe for no other reason than to be a nice elfy? In Zalanthas? I think rare.

Cheers,
HD

[John]

My comment was mostly basing it on racial stereotypes. I could have said "kank-riding elves" or "focusless dwarves" or "smart half-giants" and it been convey the same meaning (at least, my intended meaning ). So with that, I didn't exactly put too much thought into the initial comment.

That said, here is what I think about elves (with the caveat that I've only played a handful of elves so I'm not exactly the most experienced elf player, I mainly play elf-hating humans. I also haven't played Armageddon for more then a few hours since before 2008 so I may be completely out of touch and have since emphasised and exaggerated certain elements of Armageddon  ).

Hey, wait...what?  Elves can't have the same expression range of emotions that humans do?

Sure they can. But how could any elf feel comfortable in an outsider tavern? Not only are people walking in and out all the time, but the people already inside the tavern are looking for you to give them any chance to let them steal from you. I don't know if I could ever feel comfortable I'd feel if I was in an environment where

Even if outsiders are seen to belong to other groups that squabble among each other, an elf will never think of it along those lines. While understanding the difference between a Reynolte and an Oash intellectually, an elf will always see them as simply part of the amorphous chaos which is "outsiders." Because of this, outsiders can never be initially be trusted. Just as an elf desires to steal from outsiders, so do they fear that every outsider is just waiting for the chance to take everything from them. In every interaction, an elf will be wary of that possible moment when everyone turns on them. An outsider's actions can never be innocent - elves will be constantly searching an outsider for attempts to manipulate the elf or their social circle. For an outsider to earn the trust of an elf is extremely difficult.

So if an elf is happy (for whatever reason), I don't see them celebrating it in the Gaj and the Gladiator, unless they're a grizzled  Byn Sergeant who has tested every person in his unit and has the safety of his entire unit surrounding him as they celebrate. Or some other similar circumstance.

If I've just landed a huge amount of money from an Oashi noble, I'm going to be smiling and in a good mood.  Hell, I might even buy the other humans and elves in the bar a round of drinks, just to spread said Oash's sid around to people who'd never otherwise get to partake in it.

If I were an elf who'd just landed a huge amount of 'sid of an Oashi noble, I'd be quite happy and probably head off and celebrate with tribe-members. Unless of course I was currently in the process of committing an even greater theft. Perhaps this Oashi noble hates the T'zai Byn and so I'm in the Gaj and the Gladiator buying Bynners ale. I'd be quite happy and pleased with myself, because in my mind I'm (somehow) committing a grand theft. But behind my smiles and laughs, would be the eyes of someone whose in a pit of vipers. I may be confident that I'm more powerful then these vipers, but you never who might walk in that door next.

Another reason I might be acting friendly is because I want to find out a safe travel route between Allanak and Tuluk and I've heard a particular hunter knows of one. As such, I may be using the Oashi 'sid to find a safe route for my tribe so we can mess with Kurac by selling spice much cheaper then Kurac does. So I'm throwing free ale around for everyone, but in reality there's only a single person I want to see get drunk, with the hope being once he's drunk, he'll spill the beans. If not, I could always "help him to his apartment" and contact a tribemate over the Way to encourage the hunter more vigorously to tell us what we want to know.

Or maybe I stole the Oashi 'sid and I'm quite pleased with myself. But that isn't enough for me. This Oashi lord insulted me one day long ago and so now I'm spreading the coin around quite publicly with the plan being to leave Allanak at sunrise to never return. That way, once the militia investigate they'll hear of me spreading the wealth around (perhaps I took something from his apartment and gave it to Vennant as a gift to display proudly in the Gaj and the Gladiator. Something that wouldn't be automatically noticed as stolen, but would be obvious after the Oashi described the item to the militia). This way not only is my grand feat made publicly known, but I've publicly embarrassed the Oashi Lord in the process.

But I'll admit, unless I'm playing a tribeless elf, I'm struggling to find ways where I would shower a barroom with 'sid without having an ulterior motive. I don't see any real wiggle-room in "every outsider" and "every interaction." This of course is only referring to outsiders. Among tribemates (or people I'm considering making a tribemate) I could discard my wariness and actually relax.

[Salt Merchant]

I don't see a problem with being friendly and doing "good" acts so long as they're costing one's character little or nothing.

So an elf might give honest advice or directions to someone who asks, for instance, since it's no skin off his nose. Especially if he's in a good mood.

Having an elf risk his life to save a human child or other such really altruistic acts would be unreasonable though.

[Intrepid]

But I'll admit, unless I'm playing a tribeless elf, I'm struggling to find ways where I would shower a barroom with 'sid without having an ulterior motive. I don't see any real wiggle-room in "every outsider" and "every interaction." This of course is only referring to outsiders. Among tribemates (or people I'm considering making a tribemate) I could discard my wariness and actually relax.

Who said anything about not having an ulterior motive?  I just said that elves are not two-dimensional.  They can be in a good mood.  They can even come across as friendly from time to time.  PCs are not candidates for mediocrity.

An elf can still smile at you while she's slitting your throat, or buy a round of drinks with the stolen Oash's money for everyone at the tavern just to add that little bit of revenge to the Oash by letting a bunch of commoners who would never normally enjoy that level of generosity from the snooty noble have that bit of cheer in their otherwise dismal lives.

[janeshephard]

They're suspicious of non elves and have tests of loyalty. The documentation doesn't say elves are anti-social to other races.

Incorrect. Elves are suspicious of everyone not part of their family unit/tribe. They sometimes distrust other elves even more.

Friendly is a little misleading. An elf is perfectly capable of being friendly if it offers an opportunity to learn more about a potential
ally, victim or enemy. The old, "You catch more flies with honey than vinegar." routine.

Genuinely friendly to someone outside their tribe for no other reason than to be a nice elfy? In Zalanthas? I think rare.

Cheers,
HD

I sometimes think this kind of attitude is simply unrealistic. On Zalanthas cooperating leads to better survival than pissing everyone off. Being friendly should be a learned behavior everyone has.

But I'll leave it at that.

[John]

Who said anything about not having an ulterior motive?

Fair enough. I guess it depends on how you define "friendly." Personally, I wouldn't exactly call an elf friendly just because they're smiling and buying people drinks So with that said, I think we agree on how to roleplay elves. We just differ on what words we use to describe the roleplaying of an elf

I sometimes think this kind of attitude is simply unrealistic. On Zalanthas cooperating leads to better survival than pissing everyone off. Being friendly should be a learned behavior everyone has.

But I'll leave it at that.

If anyone here watches How I Met Your Mother, I think Barney would make a wonderful elf. Almost every interaction with a woman, is him trying to get in her pants. If he isn't trying to get into her pants, why is he talking with her? His constant "avoid second dates" attitude symbolises his entire attitude towards women. But that doesn't mean he can't be nice to women he finds unattractive. That's why he goes to the gym specifically to encourage the women who visit it. He's investing in the future. Once they succeed in losing weight and become attractive, Barney gets what he wants and then never see's them again.

However, with that, its important to note Barney does have some women he actually interacts with and doesn't have any intent of ever bedding them. These would be Lilly and (depending on which season you're currently watching) Robyn. And that's why he makes the perfect elf.

An elf will only interact with outsiders because they want to steal. Stealing may be making a favourable trade for the elf. It may be getting valualable information for free or less than the information is worth.

Now there are some elves who, when asked for directions, will either refuse to give directions or give the person bad directions. And that's perfectly fine. There's nothing wrong with that. However there is a type of elf who will invest in the future. He'll tell that random outsider the correct directions to the grocer. He may even tell that outsider a little known shortcut. Because doing so will foster trust with that outsider, and what does it truly cost the elf? Nothing of course. The elf didn't value the information and so it cost him nothing to tell it to an outsider. And next week when that elf spots the outsider in a tavern, he might even wave to the outsider. Might even ask the outsider what he bought from the grocer and how he enjoyed the food he cooked with that food. He might even tell that outsider a recipe he knows involving the ingredients the outsider bought.

But don't think that elf is being nice. Oh no. That elf is creating a relationship with the outsider where the outsider will foolishly think he can trust the elf. Because once the elf gets that trust, he'll be ecstatic. He may not do anything differently to begin with. He may even wait a year, ten or even fifty. But once that trusting outsider has something the elf wants, watch out. Just like Barney beds the woman from the gym once she's attractive, the elf will steal from the outsider and exploit the outsider's trust to do so.

And just like Barney, an elf does have people he won't try to steal from. His tribemates and people who have passed his tests which essentially make them tribemates (from his perspective).

And that is why, you never trust an elf. They always have an ulterior motive. Stinking long-necks  

[X-D]

John has the right of it.

Say I'm playing an elf, here is this human, noticeably in need of help. First, My elf checks the human over. Human is wearing very low end gear and does not even have a mount to steal. Alright, he is not -currently- worth raiding/robbing/cheating. So, find out more about him. What sort of help does the human need, is it going to cost my elf anything? What and how much? Alright, the help he needs is good directions. Now, decide if the human might become worth something at a later time. If that answer is yes then my elf will give good directions. It costs him nothing and could be a high return investment at a later date.

During this time, my elf is going to act quite friendly. Even if the human looks rich, during the sizing up period, he will still be very charming.

As to trust...Heh, the order of trust for elves goes, Tribe...people of any race that have passed the trials (a horribly rare thing for mine) Then, Tembo, Mekillots, , humans, dwarves, gith, mantis, halflings, half-elves, templars other elves not of his tribe.

[Jingo]

It is possible for an elf to be genuinely nice. If that elf considers you to be an insider.

I don't think that elves are always trying to make a scam. They may be always looking out for scams against them or even scams of oppurtunity. There has be other reasons to interact, other than simply wanting to cheat someone else out of something.

So I would suggest that if an elf has an objective similar to an outsider's, then that elf may lay off on the cheating and conniving. These objectives should be practical considerations, like the defense of tribal lands or profit from an elaborate con job (that involves the outsider). And again, this doesn't mean that an elf will not be thinking about stealing from the outsider; the elf may just steal little tidbits that have no consequence to the outsider or he may even decide to take the money and run without deference mutual objective.

But if the elf intends to see the objective through, it would open up possibilities for the elven tests of loyalty that nobody talks about.

[Ampere]

Unless a sociopath, all elves are nice.  Of course, they're also xenophobes. Zalanthas is a world ruled by scarcity. The fierce cooperation within elvish social networks at the expense of everyone else is an adaptation in response to this scarcity. Within these networks, elves are good people.  This is a story of survival, and while exceptions obviously exist, to deviate from this model is to be branded a pariah, if lucky.

[Spoon]

You could play an elf that acts friendly enough to people that are not perceived as a threat in any way. Being highly skeptical of trusting people doesn't mean you have to take the paranoid, hostile maniac route.

Let's not forget there are many ways to play elves. If an elf is friendly or hostile is up to the player. If at the end of it all that elf was only ever really concerned about themselves or their tribe (when it mattered), was extremely proud about everything they can do and loved swindling and stealing with a passion, then they win the aptitude test.

Also, a bit I have always found funny is the "Elves are generally avoided by most honest races..." part. Who the fuck is playing THOSE roles?

[Tzurahro]

There is a profound difference between acting friendly and being friendly. 

Zalanthan elves are not well-springs of boundless altruism. 

In answer to the post's title question, I would say, "Yes, if you were their tribemate, sure.  Its possible."  To everyone else: if an elf is acting friendly, its probably wisest to move a few seats further away from him, 'cause some scam is certainly on the way.

[HammerofJericho]

With elves, atleast every one I've played....something I do is always for something I need.....nothing is free, nothing is cheap.....information, alliances, goods, sids....anything that benefits me. Correctly played elves should be conniving and clever to the bitter end.....or atleast try to be :p.

[spawnloser]

As to trust...Heh, the order of trust for elves goes, Tribe...people of any race that have passed the trials (a horribly rare thing for mine) Then, Tembo, Mekillots, , humans, dwarves, gith, mantis, halflings, half-elves, templars other elves not of his tribe.

That's about right... though I'd go...

Tribemates, people passing the test, raptors, mekillots, bahamets, ginka, wezer, tembo, halflings, scrab, beetles, other elves (when they're obviously lying/boasting), dwarves, gith, mantis, half-elves, humans, templars, other elves (when they sound sincere).

[Aaron Goulet]

Tribemates, people passing the test, raptors, mekillots, bahamets, ginka, wezer, tembo, halflings, scrab, beetles, other elves (when they're obviously lying/boasting), dwarves, gith, mantis, half-elves, humans, templars, other elves (when they sound sincere).

That's pretty spot-on.  I like the distinction between other elves that are being obvious versus those who are not. 

[Ampere]

elves and stuff

[Twilight]

A friendly thief?  But one that just can't resist stealing from you, due to their racial instincts?  Just wait until I app:

the smiling, kender-like elf

[Aaron Goulet]

A friendly thief?  But one that just can't resist stealing from you, due to their racial instincts?  Just wait until I app:

the smiling, kender-like elf

You'll be so sorry they eliminated the newbie repop. 

[Rindan]

I just want to point out that elves are thieves, not hoarders.  It is the act of taking that gets their rocks off, not possession.  I am sure they like possession too like any other creature that has to make do with limited resources, but no more than humans.  In other words, if an elf makes a big heist, the part that he derives super human joy from is the actual act taking.  Once taken, the possession of whatever has been taken is not going to bring any more joy than what a human feels.  

If anything, you might find elves committing truly odd acts due to their want to stealing.  An elf might very well steal something of no value to them (but of value to someone else), and once they have made the acquisition dispense of it in an indifferent manner.  For instance, a Byn elf visiting Red Storm with his unit might very well get his rocks off driving a hard negotiation and trading something worthless for a barrel of spiced ale (i.e. theft by paying less than what it is worth), and once the deed is done and he is feeling all smug and awesome for having ripped someone off, he might simply dispenses of the ale by passing it around to his unit because he can think of nothing else useful to do with it before they head out.  For the elf, the act of taking was the awesome part.  Once the act of taking is over, what was taken was just like any other resource in that it is nice to have if you need, but worthless if you don't need it and can't get something you do want with it.

So, can an elf be friendly?  Sure.  There are some barriers in the way, but there is nothing about being an elf that means they can't buy their unit a round, share some good natured jokes, and in general be friendly.  Remember, they are thieves driven by the need to take, not hoarders driven by a desire to maintain possession and keep.  If there is anything within an elf that keeps an elf from being friendly, it isn't their propensity to steal, it is their xenophobia.  An overactive fear of other people trying to screw you might make you respond with hostility.

In my opinion, a perfectly reasonable elven character could be a moderately well off elven mercenary who is friendly, it would just be friendly with quirks that might make you want to strangle him.   Imagine this elf as a jovial person who likes a good eating and good drinking.  He belts out drinking songs with the rest of them, jokes, and is in general a friendly guy.  His "elven" quirks would be that in battle, unless he considers you 'tribe' he is going to be suspicious of you trying to pawn off the most dangerous duty onto him.  He might be inclined to act more to defend his own health and wellbeing than yours if he thinks the two come in conflict.  He isn't going to volunteer for scouting duty because he thinks you want to use him as ambush bait.  

Off the battlefield his elven quirks might be occasionally amusing, but might also be grating.  Going to the market with him might be miserable, as he has to haggle to death for every little thing he tries to buy, and if he has too much cash on hand he might end up buying a pile of crap he didn't want, but couldn't help haggling to death over.  If he is a decent pick pocket, he might swap your dagger with another one of your fellows just for shits and giggles.  He might steal your water right before a mission and when you start to get upset because you can't find it, hand it back to you with a grin.  He isn't stealing your stuff to keep it, he just steal it to prove he can.  He is getting off on taking from you.  Hell, giving your stuff back might be more fun than keeping it simply because he is getting to flaunt his prized abilities.  He is going to fight with you over how much of the bar tab is just for the joy of paying less than his fair share and the paranoia that you are trying to screw him out of paying an unfair share.  However, if he is loaded with money from a recent contract, he might turn around two seconds later and spend a dozen times as much as he saved in a celebratory round of drinks like any other merc in the company might.  Until he considers you tribe, if any of his stuff goes missing he is going to be more suspicious of his fellows due to his xenophobic nature.

Actually, if you want my vision of a perfect "friendly" elf, watch SLC Punk!  Mark, the rich guy who gets paranoid about people constantly stealing from him, happily steals without a second thought just for fun, but is an otherwise friendly guy, is the perfect elf in my opinion.  He is xenophobic and loves to steal for the sake of stealing, but still a friendly guy.

Here is a clip with Mark in it.  You can skip to 5:30 if you want, but the whole clip is good.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6NXK2uzLOQ

[Sephiroto]

Outstanding post, Rindan.   And +1 for incorporating "SLC Punk."

[Pheonix]

AAAHAHAHAHA.

Alright. Gotta admit. I got curious and checked out that link. Mark is one character concept I would do anything to be able to see played in Armageddon. Now I see why everyone hate elves. And I always wondered why it was so hard for me to play them as documented...

[janeshephard]

Mark is actually a CIA counter intelligence undercover spy.

Seriously It's obvious.

BTW, in SLC punk the antagonists eventually "buy in" or die out. In case it, by any chance, misdirects your life decisions. It's actually a cautionary tale.


EDIT:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gp4INKKzQ60&feature=related

5:30 into it when they buy beer: I'd say that's civilization versus tribals. Especially with the "never so many of satans followers amassed" part. LOL. It kinda translates well with the black moon and all.

[Spoon]

Awesome post Rindan. Would be good to have more elven roleplay references like this. It promotes interaction, while leaving elves distinctly elven.