Learning to sneak in different environs

[daedroug]

So right now there is one distinction with sneak, either nature and city sneak.

In my opinion that seems pretty static and unrealistic to me. In all honesty there should only be a distinction as to whether or not you have a talent for stealth, beyond that it's simply a matter of experience with different environments.

Basicly I think that you should be able to learn to sneak and hide anywhere once you do it often enough. As well if we where to change it like this, we can also seperate out the vast array of outside areas as well. Thus you can be better at sneaking around the desert and then not so good in the grey forest because you haven't done much around there. Finally not sure if this is already in place but it would also make it so you can give bonuses to seperate area sneaking abilities with different equipment, That way, desert camo gear will work only on the desert and not in the forest.

[janeshephard]

Isn't this already handled via the request tool? If you're old enough and have enough experience just send in some logs and request city sneak.

[X-D]

You can already get both stealth styles by simply taking the right main and subguilds. That has been posted a few times.

If you have not taken them then your PC simply sucks at one or the other....but still not impossible.

Or, to put it another way, your city based burgler who does not have a wilderness knack(subguild) can successfully sneak and hide in the wilderness...just not very well.

[tortall]

I don't think the point of the post was becase said player wanted the skill in both places. They wanted it to be even MORE different for every envoriment.

Desert sneak
Scrub sneak
Forest sneak
Grass sneak
Salt sneak
Paved city sneak
Unpaved city sneak
ECT

[X-D]

Eww, Then, I don't agree. Stealth is one of the few things I think they got mostly right...leastways as far as having city style and wilderness style.

And wilderness style remains the same no matter if you have bushes, trees, dunes, rocks etc.

As for the camo styles...All of zalanthas is desert. No matter where you are in the wilderness, it is mostly sand...IE, 90% and up from there.

The grasses are desert grasses, the forest is a desert forest and the scrub is desert scrub.

One of the overlords posted on the matter once, but I'll be dammed if I can find it right now. But many people have posted good RL pics to give an idea.

But here, Baobab forest http://www.congo-pages.org/senegal/senegal.htmhttp://www.pbase.com/drpablo74/image/60697304

Now, I live in AZ where we have desert scrublands http://www.werc.usgs.gov/fire/lv/fireandinvasives/images/bvdm_b.jpg


And desert grasslands (which look like scrub really, but with some grasses.

Notice though, in general, your color and patterns remain the same.

[Chettaman]

True it's mostly desert. But if you're wearing gear that makes you look like a bush. Being in the scrub should give you some pluses. You know... since you look like the surrounding area. Or grass colored gear for the grass land... I can't remember what color, but if you're army-crawling through the grass, you'd be harder to see. Unless you were wearing a bright orange... unless the grass is bright orange. See what I mean?
I can't think of any gear that would help city sneak though... commoner gear, I guess. Nothing too 'flashy'.

I like this idea. It would make having knowledge of a certain area come in handy. More so.

[Krath]

I disagree with the above poster. It is already a funky and complicated code from what I hear.

[X-D]

Heh, Camo does not have "bush pattern" Or "Grass" pattern on it, the patterns for camo remain basicly the same, only the colors vary. And even then, on zalanthas that variation is only slight.

One style is "tawny yellow, grey and tan" Another style is "yellow, brown and tan"
All the styles claim the same pattern. None are going to be a neon glow in the wrong area because no matter the area, in zalanthas wilderness the colors are mostly the same...lots and lots of sand and rock and sometimes some plants.

Again, I argue that wilderness is wilderness is wilderness, some areas are easier to be stealthy in and some are harder...no matter what your skill style is, hiding and sneaking on the salt flats is going to be harder then in the scrub.

[daedroug]

Heh, Camo does not have "bush pattern" Or "Grass" pattern on it, the patterns for camo remain basicly the same, only the colors vary. And even then, on zalanthas that variation is only slight.

One style is "tawny yellow, grey and tan" Another style is "yellow, brown and tan"
All the styles claim the same pattern. None are going to be a neon glow in the wrong area because no matter the area, in zalanthas wilderness the colors are mostly the same...lots and lots of sand and rock and sometimes some plants.

Again, I argue that wilderness is wilderness is wilderness, some areas are easier to be stealthy in and some are harder...no matter what your skill style is, hiding and sneaking on the salt flats is going to be harder then in the scrub.

You have to remember that we're not talking about modern day camo, we're talking about medieval level technology figuring out how to look like the area nearby. In general that would consist of using materials to mimic or use the flora of the area to blend in. If you have armor that's basically made from a hide with grasses glued to it, it's going to give you some great camouflage in the grasslands. Take it to the red desert however and your going to stick out like a sore thumb, sure the colors match slightly but the fact that you have miles and miles of sand and then all of a sudden a patch of grass? I know I'd notice it.

As for the rest of the thread, the idea is that those that spend a lot of time slipping silently through the grasses is going to be better at it then someone that tends to slide along the edge of a dune keeping it between them and anyone they see. In the case of the grey forest, sure it might still be the same colors as the desert but the forest is going to be much flatter and you'd be relying more on taking cover behind trees and bushes.

On a secondary note I'm not saying that assassins should start out with the same knack as a ranger when out on the dunes, I'm saying they should both have the same potential. It'll likely take a lot less time for a ranger to become used to staying out of site in a wilderness terrain but given enough time, an assassin should be able to eventually get just as stealthy. The reason i was thinking this is the common tenants that run between sneaking and hiding in every wilderness landscape also is the basic tenant of staying inconspicuous on the streets and alleys. "Use whats there to blend in and/or stay out of sight"

[X-D]

No, We are not talking about medieval camo.

"I" am talking about the camo currently in the game.

Code Select Expand

Layers of reinforced sandcloth have been woven together to provide a
sturdy material while still remaining relatively light weight.  Dyed in an
alternating pattern, the interlocking tawny yellow, greenish-grey and tan
shapes blend at the edges, lending an appearance of camouflage.

One example if the current Zalanthan camo Tech, and all 3 styles have the same pattern and near the same colors.

As to it being the same basic tenant for city...Um, No. Again, staff has stated in the past that city stealth is more the art of not being noticed in a crowd then hiding behind a tree. That sneaking is more moving again, with others, without being noticed then it is moving silently.

And for the last part of your post. It is already possible for a ranger to get almost as good as an assassin in the city and an assassin to get near as good as a ranger in the wilderness. You just have to take one of the three subclasses that allow it.

I am quite happy with this arrangement and see no need to change it. If you did not take the sub that allows the other stealth modes then your PC simply sucks at the other stealth modes in favor of other skills.

[daedroug]

No, We are not talking about medieval camo.

"I" am talking about the camo currently in the game.

Code Select Expand

Layers of reinforced sandcloth have been woven together to provide a
sturdy material while still remaining relatively light weight.  Dyed in an
alternating pattern, the interlocking tawny yellow, greenish-grey and tan
shapes blend at the edges, lending an appearance of camouflage.

One example if the current Zalanthan camo Tech, and all 3 styles have the same pattern and near the same colors.

I'll concede that one for now, however

As to it being the same basic tenant for city...Um, No. Again, staff has stated in the past that city stealth is more the art of not being noticed in a crowd then hiding behind a tree. That sneaking is more moving again, with others, without being noticed then it is moving silently.

And for the last part of your post. It is already possible for a ranger to get almost as good as an assassin in the city and an assassin to get near as good as a ranger in the wilderness. You just have to take one of the three subclasses that allow it.

Moving along and blending in with a crowd is a short step from blending in with a bush or moving with or like the local wildlife. It's slightly different but it's still about using whats there to blend-in and/or stay out of sight. I also get that not everywhere in the city is going to have crowds of people to blend in with, in which case you'd be falling back on the ways of staying silent and keeping to cover. If anything, having moving crowds to use as cover just makes it a little bit easier to move along inconspicuously.

[X-D]

Moving along and blending in with a crowd is a short step from blending in with a bush or moving with or like the local wildlife. It's slightly different but it's still about using whats there to blend-in and/or stay out of sight. I also get that not everywhere in the city is going to have crowds of people to blend in with, in which case you'd be falling back on the ways of staying silent and keeping to cover. If anything, having moving crowds to use as cover just makes it a little bit easier to move along inconspicuously.

See now, that is where we are just going to disagree.

My take on city hide/sneak is that it is more the art of not being noticed...which is vastly different then the art of not being seen.

[daedroug]

My take on city hide/sneak is that it is more the art of not being noticed...which is vastly different then the art of not being seen.

Use of camouflage is a perfect example of trying not to be noticed in the wilderness albeit not one that everyone uses, the only reason that it's possible in the city is that everyone is given a natural camouflage to blend in with everyone else wandering around the streets (unless they're somehow deformed for some reason).

[Rhyden]

If I understand correctly, you want to replace the city/nature stealth with general stealth skills that take checks for terrain (scrub, desert, forest/alleyway, road, market) and camouflaged clothing to determine success?

I'd be down with that. I dislike the city/nature (indoor/outdoor) difference in skill; I think there should be more to determining success than just your guild/subguild. If you can sneak/hide/hunt/whatever inside a city, I think you should at least have a chance at doing so in the nature, and vice versa. Maybe add bonuses for stealth skills in city for assassin and nature for rangers or something.

Then again, this could very well be how the system already works. *shrug*

Oh, and I definitely agree that someone in scrub camouflage in the middle of the desert should have stealth penalties.

[daedroug]

If I understand correctly, you want to replace the city/nature stealth with general stealth skills that take checks for terrain (scrub, desert, forest/alleyway, road, market) and camouflaged clothing to determine success?

I'd be down with that. I dislike the city/nature (indoor/outdoor) difference in skill; I think there should be more to determining success than just your guild/subguild. If you can sneak/hide/hunt/whatever inside a city, I think you should at least have a chance at doing so in the nature, and vice versa. Maybe add bonuses for stealth skills in city for assassin and nature for rangers or something.

Then again, this could very well be how the system already works. *shrug*

Oh, and I definitely agree that someone in scrub camouflage in the middle of the desert should have stealth penalties.

Thats basicly what I've been getting at, although the way things are now assassins get a penalty to sneaking and hiding outside however given that they have a talent for those skill and given some experience an assassin should be able to overcome that penalty. As for adding a bonus to assassins for city sneak and a rangers for wilderness I'm basicly saying give them either a better learning curve or better starting skill.

[Dan]

As it stands, you can already become amazingly good at sneaking/hiding in the opposite environment than what your guild starts you out as capable at. Anyone who says otherwise has not played with this enough, this is already very possible and useable before an extreme amount of days played.

Assassins already get really good at sneaking/hiding outside of the city after enough time and with the proper equipment. Travel light.

[daedroug]

As it stands, you can already become amazingly good at sneaking/hiding in the opposite environment than what your guild starts you out as capable at. Anyone who says otherwise has not played with this enough, this is already very possible and useable before an extreme amount of days played.

Assassins already get really good at sneaking/hiding outside of the city after enough time and with the proper equipment. Travel light.

That's just it, after putting in a system like I'm proposing, if the assassin has gotten awesome at sneaking in the city he won't immediately be able to go out and be awesome in the wilderness. Yes, an assassin will be able to go out and after much experience be able to match a rangers skill in that area but not before then.

[musashi]

Based on some things I've seen in game, this bothered me a little bit.

Bob is an assassian, and thus has city hide/sneak. He wants to go out into the wastes. Bob just wears all of his city-sneak boosting equipment however, because he seems to think that wearing wilderness-sneak boosting equipment won't help him since he doesn't have wilderness sneak.

I'd like for equipment that adds to sneaking be keyed to add to any character's sneak/hide skills, but only when they're in the proper enviorment that equipment was made for. Footpads for cities, scrub-camo for the north, desert-camo for the south, ect, ect. Unless of course that's the way it is already.

Just, based on the behavior of some people I've seen in game over the months, it made me think that either equipment helps you no matter where you are so long as you have the right skill it's keyed to ... or a lot of players seem to think that's the case even if it isn't.