Mount stamina too high?

[musashi]

It takes a long time for any mount to regenerate stamina. I would find this to be incredibly annoying.

I find potential raiding stock going from Tuluk to Red Storm without needing to stop for anything incredibly annoying.

Only beetles can do that, and just barely if they stick to only the road. Beetles are also incredibly slow.

I disagree, inix can do it as well, and my last PC's war beetle mostly (give or take falling behind a time or two) kept up with desert elves, running from the middle of Vrun Driath all the way west to the scary area over some very hash terrain without needing to stop for a rest any more often than the elves did. I don't think beetles are that slow, compared to say, inix. And they certainly have more than enough stamina.

It sounds to me though, like this conversation is tracing back to a deeper root issue: Should most common PC's (ie not flying magickers and 150 day rangers with tamed silt flyers) be able to get from one side of the known world to the other at the drop of a hat?

[Kryos]

If you think traveling from one side of the world to the other can be accomplished, right now, at the drop of the hat for a new PC, I highly encourage you to try it.

P.S.  Your boots are mine, sucker.

[jhunter]

I think it's fine the way it is.

[Akoto]

I think it's fine the way it is.

Ditto!

[brytta.leofa]

I think it's fine the way it is.

I think it's fine the way it is, BUT...

If you can't kill them, your only options are to run to a city or die. Distracting them with other prey doesn't work. Only one guild can hide from them. They don't get tired. They don't have to rest. They don't even have to use the hunt skill or pass a hunt check. It's the Zalanthan equivalent of being chased by a Terminator T-1000.

...a mount stamina reduction would add Interesting Things, IF we could get limits puts on the turbo-tracking monsters.

[Xagon]

I think it depends on the actual distance between the cities. There are 65 rooms between Tuluk and Luirs. If each room is a league long (as is traditionally thought) then the path is a full 195 miles away. Some of these rooms are not a league wide. The span, for example, has treacherous footing. The fortress along the road is not three miles long, either.

For comparison, a modern day horse, if well trained and in shape, can cover about 50 miles a day. I'd assume horses in Zalanthas are much hardier, beetles, inix, and the like even more so. For a modern horse the trip between the two cities is about a four day trip (6 hours IRL).

...

(I'm going to continue this post tomorrow, as sleep deprecation is catching up quickly.)

[jhunter]

I think it's fine the way it is.

I think it's fine the way it is, BUT...

If you can't kill them, your only options are to run to a city or die. Distracting them with other prey doesn't work. Only one guild can hide from them. They don't get tired. They don't have to rest. They don't even have to use the hunt skill or pass a hunt check. It's the Zalanthan equivalent of being chased by a Terminator T-1000.

...a mount stamina reduction would add Interesting Things, IF we could get limits puts on the turbo-tracking monsters.

True enough.

[Synthesis]

I'd just like to say:

If your target's mount's stamina is a factor in the equation, you're a shitty raider.

[Clearsighted]

It takes a long time for any mount to regenerate stamina. I would find this to be incredibly annoying.

I find potential raiding stock going from Tuluk to Red Storm without needing to stop for anything incredibly annoying.

Only beetles can do that, and just barely if they stick to only the road. Beetles are also incredibly slow.

I disagree, inix can do it as well, and my last PC's war beetle mostly (give or take falling behind a time or two) kept up with desert elves, running from the middle of Vrun Driath all the way west to the scary area over some very hash terrain without needing to stop for a rest any more often than the elves did. I don't think beetles are that slow, compared to say, inix. And they certainly have more than enough stamina.

For one thing, inix are way faster than war beetles. And yes, a war beetle's stamina is the main reason to ride one over an inix.

Secondly, if your inix was able to make it from Red Storm to Tuluk without resting, then it was like no inix I've ever ridden.

As for a war beetle keeping up with desert elves over rough terrain...Maybe for a little while.

[musashi]

If you think traveling from one side of the world to the other can be accomplished, right now, at the drop of the hat for a new PC, I highly encourage you to try it.

P.S.  Your boots are mine, sucker.

It's been done many, many times. By guild merchants, no less. And I was saying that I think the deeper root argument in question was on whether or not normal mundane PC's in general, not only new ones, should be able to easily traverse the spaces inbetween the settlements without needing to do some planning and group arrangements first. I kind of have mixed feelings on that myself, but just from reading some of the arguements folks were making in favor of, and against reducing mount stamina in this thread ... seemed to me like the actual motivation for such statements had more to do with wanting, or not wanting, players to be able to easily get from Allanak to Tuluk ... and not so much to do with whether or not they thought the mount's current stamina ratings were realistic or balanced. That's all I was saying.

For one thing, inix are way faster than war beetles. And yes, a war beetle's stamina is the main reason to ride one over an inix.

Secondly, if your inix was able to make it from Red Storm to Tuluk without resting, then it was like no inix I've ever ridden.

As for a war beetle keeping up with desert elves over rough terrain...Maybe for a little while.

I guess, wild inix FTW? I dunno, I've never had a PC who rode a stable purchased one, but hell even wild oxen can make it from Tuluk to Red Storm without a break if you keep to the roads. Or could I should say, before IG events made some parts of the road ... interesting.

For the war beetle bit I guess we're just disagreeing. I've always found inix to be slower.

[Kryos]

It's been done many, many times. By guild merchants, no less. And I was saying that I think the deeper root argument in question was on whether or not normal mundane PC's in general, not only new ones, should be able to easily traverse the spaces inbetween the settlements without needing to do some planning and group arrangements first. I kind of have mixed feelings on that myself, but just from reading some of the arguements folks were making in favor of, and against reducing mount stamina in this thread ... seemed to me like the actual motivation for such statements had more to do with wanting, or not wanting, players to be able to easily get from Allanak to Tuluk ... and not so much to do with whether or not they thought the mount's current stamina ratings were realistic or balanced. That's all I was saying.

I would say that right now, going as a guild merchant between big cities was a big gamble on your life.  Sure, you can succeed.  Some times the horrors of the wastes just aren't prowling at this particular time.  But, that other half is a dark, short road.  I've done a lot of traveling recently, and I'd firmly state things are scary enough.  As for mount stamina, I'm comfortable with it as it is.

I think the scope of time is what really distorts things.  Moving at a casual pace, neither animals nor people tire quickly.  Overland marches can cover some huge swaths of territory if done on a beast.  however, since it takes such little time IG to do so, it feels . . . diminutive to what we expect the distance to be.

[musashi]

Yes, under current (though perhaps temporary) circumstances, it's more dangerous than before, for sure.

Also agree with the bit on things feeling diminutive.

[brytta.leofa]

For the war beetle bit I guess we're just disagreeing. I've always found inix to be slower.

Inix, per (old?) documentation or the look description or somethin', can outrun a kank over short distances, even if the kank is living.  If we spam our ride on an inix, we can leave your friends behind.  'Cause your friends ride bugs; and, if they ride bugs, then they're no friends of mine.

[musashi]

For the war beetle bit I guess we're just disagreeing. I've always found inix to be slower.

Inix, per (old?) documentation or the look description or somethin', can outrun a kank over short distances, even if the kank is living.  If we spam our ride on an inix, we can leave your friends behind.  'Cause your friends ride bugs; and, if they ride bugs, then they're no friends of mine.

... The docs ... ... say a lot of things 

[brytta.leofa]

For the war beetle bit I guess we're just disagreeing. I've always found inix to be slower.

Inix, per (old?) documentation or the look description or somethin', can outrun a kank over short distances, even if the kank is living.  If we spam our ride on an inix, we can leave your friends behind.  'Cause your friends ride bugs; and, if they ride bugs, then they're no friends of mine.

... The docs ... ... say a lot of things 

But, unless I've totally mangled my memories, spamriding at walk speed on an inix WILL cause you to outrun your beetle-ridin' followers.

[X-D]

It will, and in a low number of rooms too.

[Synthesis]

Yes, inix are faster than warbeetles.

Sheesh, pay attention when you're playing the game, people.

[Zoltan]

Couldn't all of this been kept as IC information? As in, let's not discuss the stamina levels and movement speed of specific mount types on the GDB? Specifics aren't necessary to talk about whether or not mount stamina in general is too high.

[Synthesis]

Any NPC stablehand or vNPC hunter worth his travel cakes would know that a war beetle is slower than an inix, and that sunbacks are so slow that the Dragon will return before you make it from Tuluk to Allanak on one.

This is information that everyone legitimately has a right to know.

[Zoltan]

I disagree. It's stuff that can be asked IC and inferred from mount prices in general. It doesn't -need- to be said. I'm not trying to put it on the level of a Whiran's skill tree or something, I'm just saying that it's very, very easy to find out IC and it should be found out IC.

[Yam]

I haven't seen anything in here that isn't readily apparent from various helpfiles.

[tortall]

ANY mount will "out run" you if not both of them are CODEDLY running. As in, all followers must ALSO type run. I've found the inix STILL lag behind when someone riding a war beetle is in command. Heck, even when I'm walking my beetle, the inix riders often lag behind.

I dunno what you guys are on about. :-p

On topic, no, I don't think that mount stam needs to be dropped. Where it stands now, you HAVE to rest your mounts TWICE to make it from Tuluk to Nak. Especially if you want to run that certain stretch that tends to be filled with those T-1000 creatures that like to track you from Nak to Tuluk.

Yes, when the roads were still mostly safe, I could run my beetle from Tuluk to Nak and it be at the point of exhaustion, only BARELY making it in. As it was BEFORE most recent events, where you could still follow MOST of the road, you could WALK your beetle the distance, and make it to Nak very tired.

And I've never been able to keep up with a delf. Not on a beetle, not on an inix. They're too fast, and now I can't even charge them to the ground and give myself a CHANCE to kill the fuckers who manage to keep 1-2 rooms ahead and shoot me dead because I can't catch them. Filthy neckers. 

[Clearsighted]

ANY mount will "out run" you if not both of them are CODEDLY running. As in, all followers must ALSO type run. I've found the inix STILL lag behind when someone riding a war beetle is in command. Heck, even when I'm walking my beetle, the inix riders often lag behind.

I dunno what you guys are on about. :-p

On topic, no, I don't think that mount stam needs to be dropped. Where it stands now, you HAVE to rest your mounts TWICE to make it from Tuluk to Nak. Especially if you want to run that certain stretch that tends to be filled with those T-1000 creatures that like to track you from Nak to Tuluk.

Yes, when the roads were still mostly safe, I could run my beetle from Tuluk to Nak and it be at the point of exhaustion, only BARELY making it in. As it was BEFORE most recent events, where you could still follow MOST of the road, you could WALK your beetle the distance, and make it to Nak very tired.

And I've never been able to keep up with a delf. Not on a beetle, not on an inix. They're too fast, and now I can't even charge them to the ground and give myself a CHANCE to kill the fuckers who manage to keep 1-2 rooms ahead and shoot me dead because I can't catch them. Filthy neckers. 

Are you sure the inix riders weren't just failing at ride? And inix can definitely run down a delf, depending on typing speed. A running war beetle is about how fast a running delf is.

[musashi]

I'm sorry we derailed your thread RGS 

[ibusoe]

I think it would make more sense to move the cities further apart.

Lowering mount stamina would have unintended consequences like making hunting more dull.