Lame or what?

[EvilRoeSlade]

Some poor sap fails (not critically fails, mind you) their steal attempt against a PC, and suddenly their is a post on the IC board stating their short description.

You steal a sword from some guy, and since your the only person who was standing up at the time, he glares at you for the next half-hour.  You steal a key from some lass, and because you emoted making your way towards the bar, she magickally knows it was you.

I'm getting pretty fucking tired of the code abuse that is almost invariably used against people who are trying to legitimately and realistically use the steal skill.  Any thoughts?

[creeper386]

Kill them all! Thats what I'd do... Well you'd have to have the money to hire someone that could kill them... But it could happen...


Creeper

[Forest Junkie]

This has been something that has bothered me for some time as well...

As you know, there is a fine line between IC knowledge and OOC abuse. How do you discern the two? Well, it's almost impossible in my opinion.

Sounds like those people didn't take into account the various vnpc's that could have stolen from them, instead of blaming you, the only other pc in the area. Bleh, I'm done.

[flashz00]

I agree with you totally.. Not to go to ic but with one of my earlier characters I attempted to steal and didnt get caught but covered my tracks. Right after that I walk into the tavren and a pc was there and started accusing me off it. How could he have know it was me? there was many other vnpc's walking down the street. So like you I get tired of people playing that way...

[flurry]

The worst part about it is that it actually discourages thieves from emotes that might add flavor to their steal attempts.

[gfair]

This is a debate that has been going on for ages - the thief's player thinks it's unfair that he can get caught, and the people who notices the thief trying to steal, or gets stolen from, thinks the thief's actions and decisions are so obvious and stupid that they deserve to get busted.


Personally, I've seen some of the worst RP done when people have tried to steal from my characters.  It is so typical - My character is in a populated bar, an elf walks in, the elf looks at someone, and the next thing I see is he has failed at a thieving attempt, on me or on anyone else.  Stealing in a tavern or public dorm is incredibly stupid in my opinion, but it gets worse - the worst case is when the thief who got caught stays in the tavern. I recall one time, the thief failed sat at a bar, and hung out there trying to blend in for a while.

I also remember a recent thief who failed on me in a merchant shop, and as soon as he failed, he ran like the Dragon was breathing magical fire at him. That's as smart as they come, not only did I not get a look at him, but I've never seen the sdesc around town since, and I do a LOT of travel around town.

The most successful thieves in real life are also the smartest thieves, and here is what I suggest to make your thief a smart one, instead of one worthy of nomination for the Darwin awards.

- Never steal in a tavern or a sleep room bordering a tavern.  Just don't do it, it's an insane idea because there's usually plenty of people there, and no amount of trying to cover your tracks will somehow make it acceptable for you to try and steal in a place where almost everybody is suspicious of everybody else, and eyes are constantly wandering.

- Have a heck of a lot of patience.  You're not going to become a thieving god overnight, have a plan to keep the income/food coming in while you train up in secret, in between attempts.

- Don't pick a target, pick a period of time.  Wait for movement in that room by other characters, PC or NPC, or pass by a couple times, look for circumstances that would justify an average person passing by a couple times.

- You're going to get caught.  That's the only way you'll figure out you are decent enough not to get caught.

- When you get caught, immediately flee the area, and flee any time you see your PC target for the next two weeks.

- After fleeing, lay low for a while.  Perhaps a couple weeks before you try on a different PC, at least, and keep that time period between all attempts until you don't fail perhaps five times in a row.  In the short term, like a RL day or three, people will remember you.  But over a couple IC months (two weeks) people will forget.


Lastly, when you get caught and busted, don't come complaining on this forum because you think the person used OOC info.  It's very easy IC to notice anything suddenly missing that is important to you, and you don't have the information or right to decide what people notice.  Live with it, and move on, no thief deserves any better than what happens in real life, and in real life thieves get exposed whenever possible.

[Don't be stupid.]

- Never steal in a tavern or a sleep room bordering a tavern.  Just don't do it, it's an insane idea because there's usually plenty of people there, and no amount of trying to cover your tracks will somehow make it acceptable for you to try and steal in a place where almost everybody is suspicious of everybody else, and eyes are constantly wandering.

This sounds like good OOC advice for an aspiring thief. Just don't try and convince anyone that a packed, crowded place such as a busy tavern or popular bazaar, is not an appropriate IC place for a nondescript filching attempt.

[Bestatte]

Most pilfering attempts, whether in the movies, on TV, or in real life, occur in crowded areas. Cutpurses pick those areas -because- they're crowded. It's much easier to get lost in the shuffle if you don't stand out - if you're not just one person all alone and the obvious one to accuse.

It's also MUCH easier to explain a bump to the side while your hand slides the wallet/purse/doodad from your mark's possession when it's crowded, since people jostle each other all the time in bars trying to get from one side of the room to the next.

Realistically, it is the most appropriate place to attempt a pocket-pick.

The problem lies with the target having such amazing perception and paranoia that he is ALWAYS noticing someone touching him, even if he's standing in the middle of a "can barely breath it's so crowded in here!" crowd.

I've been the target of a pickpocket attempt where I was intentionally vague about the criminal. I knew that elf was in the room, I knew he passed toward my general direction (because he emoted as such), but I could only *assume* it was him because a) he was an elf and elves are all thieves and b) he made an obvious move in my direction. I even went so far as to report the attempt, describing the very little I was able to see of that elf, and got lambasted for it here on the GDB.

So it's hard from both sides of the picture - victim and thief, to RP these things appropriately without *someone* getting pissed. Just because my PC happened to be watching a specific character PRIOR to the actual attempt doesn't mean they're going to let people know they're paying that close attention - until that specific character reaches into their pockets and tries to pull something out.

On the other hand, that doesn't mean that EVERY attempt should be noticed by the mark. I've also let an actual successful pickpocket slide by, noticing only that something was missing, even though I saw the pickpocket emote suspicious behavior. My character wasn't watching in that direction however, and so I decided she shouldn't have any idea who it was.

I just thought I'd add that comment.

[Dazed and Confused]

Problem with skinnies in bars.

First, why is the skinny there?

Skinny walks in..look around ...and stands still doing nothing...IMO skinny is acting suspicious..

Why is the skinny in the bar? Is it to have a drink? NO he didn't buy one.
If it is the barrel is he there for the music? NO...he didn't pay for the bards to play...

Is he there talking to someone? No...doing nothing...

Try to emote doing something that would give a skinny a reason to there...

if you are trying to nick 100 sid from my character...go spend 6 sid and get an ale....and DRINK IT...

Do something....inquire about a person your looking for....
or a job...
or something that would explain why you're thieving arse is in the bar...

I am sure there are plenty of other reasons too

And by the way I have been stolen from successfully and when it is done properly...I just give a vague description of a skinny with whatever cloak they had...

You may also want to get your sneak skill high enough that you can enter the bar without tripping over your feet.

[Dan]

You case is a special one EvilRoeSlade.

The people who were stolen from are all in the same clan. They come back and talk about the day and what happened. There are a few reasons why your character was singled out, if you wish I could pm you with some specifics that are too IC for the general board. There are plenty of reasons why you would have been suspected.

[Dazed and Confused]

The worst part about it is that it actually discourages thieves from emotes that might add flavor to their steal attempts.

Flavor? Use ldesc changes if you want to be a good thief. Make it enjoyable to be stolen from. If you emote walking to the bar and do not sit down change your ldesc to standing aside the bar. That way when I look around I can see where you are at if I wish. If your walking towards my table in the rear to steal from me...change your ldesc to say your standing by my table. Then I can call over the guards and tell them to get you the f*ck away from me or stand up and walk away...

You could also develop the HIDE skill....before making a lame attempt at stealing from me. Then when you hide...you can freely move about unnoticed. No one said being a good thief was easy...same as being a good warrior or a good merchant...it all takes time...

[Barzalene]

Earlier this year I played a rinthi elf who wanted to steal Allanak. She wanted to steal from every member of the militia, she wanted to steal a templar, and possibly a large building. She not only emoted but she stole brazenly. She'd walk along a bar and emote sticking her hand into every pocket she passed. She'd bang into people and feel for what she could get. She stole as a way to say "Fuck You" to the humans of Allanak.


And I was shocked at how well most people played along. There were always a few idiots who would scan like nuts. One idiot even tried to track me in the Barrel. But on a whole, people were great about playing along.
I'm sorry to hear that this has deteriorated in the last few months. All I can say is, you all know you know better. Now shape up.

[Anonymous]

This is a debate that has been going on for ages - the thief's player thinks it's unfair that he can get caught, and the people who notices the thief trying to steal, or gets stolen from, thinks the thief's actions and decisions are so obvious and stupid that they deserve to get busted.

There are a lot of code restraints that make it difficult not to be obvious, but this only from an OOC standpoint.  The biggest trouble is that you have to be standing to steal.  If somebody notices something is missing, or if they feel a hand in their pocket, that doesn't give them the right to blame it on the only person who could have done it from an OOC standpoint.  Is he the only person in the tavern that was standing up?  No, I'm sure there are plenty of virtual people milling about, unable to get a seat or whatnot.  Is he the only person that was near the victim at the time?  Again, no.  The point I'm trying to make is that a thief has an advantage in a large virtual crowd, but this advantage only works if people will CONSENT to it.

Stealing in a tavern or public dorm is incredibly stupid in my opinion, but it gets worse - the worst case is when the thief who got caught stays in the tavern. I recall one time, the thief failed sat at a bar, and hung out there trying to blend in for a while.

If you can't steal in a place where there are a lot of people, where can you steal?  Out in the streets?  There are a lot of people there too.  What about in the marketplace, which is infested with pickpockets according to the documentation?  Aren't there a lot of people everywhere?  A crowd provides an advantage to thieves in that there is a big swarming mass of people that they can dissappear into at any time.  Not only that, but there are too many people to pay attention to all at once.  A thief can almost certainly find a target whose attention is distracted somewhere else.  In grade school, have you ever been tapped on the shoulder by some joker, and then turned around to see four or five people, therefore you don't know which one did it?  Thats pretty much the same effect a pickpocket can hope to achieve in a tavern.

- Never steal in a tavern or a sleep room bordering a tavern.  Just don't do it, it's an insane idea because there's usually plenty of people there, and no amount of trying to cover your tracks will somehow make it acceptable for you to try and steal in a place where almost everybody is suspicious of everybody else, and eyes are constantly wandering.

Again, there are a lot of places in which there are a lot of people.  The idea of pickpocketing isn't to make the grab when nobody else is looking, but to disguise your unlawful action as something that it isn't, like drunken stumbling, tying your shoelace, or whatever.  Also, a good pickpocket usually ties to do something like buy a drink, socialize, or hit on people so that he doesn't seem so suspicious.  I think thats why I never play elves.  How are you supposed to try toscam somebody who is fully expecting you to scam them?  No wonder desert elves resort to raiding so much.

Lastly, when you get caught and busted, don't come complaining on this forum because you think the person used OOC info.  It's very easy IC to notice anything suddenly missing that is important to you, and you don't have the information or right to decide what people notice.  Live with it, and move on, no thief deserves any better than what happens in real life, and in real life thieves get exposed whenever possible.

Noticing that your sword got stolen?  Sure.  Noticing that the tug you felt was an attempt at stealing, and not just a random jostle in the tavern?  I don't have any beef with that.  Using your super-sleuth abilities to figure out who the only person that had the coded capibility to rob you, ignoring the crowd of virtual people?  I consider that an abuse of OOC information.

[EvilRoeSlade]

Ahem, that was me.  EvilRoeSalad.  *blush*

[EvilRoeSlade]

The people who were stolen from are all in the same clan. They come back and talk about the day and what happened. There are a few reasons why your character was singled out, if you wish I could pm you with some specifics that are too IC for the general board. There are plenty of reasons why you would have been suspected.

I won't state whether or not any of those instances happened with my character, happened recently or in the past, or happened at all.  However, if anybody wants to PM me I don't have a problem with it.  I don't bite.

*chortle*

Well, not that much.  Anymore.

[creeper386]

It seems to me that more brazen attempts tend to be more successful. Give their character a reason to be pissed and sometimes they don't notice something is missing from them. Or just get into a routine that everyone then expects... And they don't think it's suspicious.

I personally have yet to be stolen from in all the time I've played Arm I think... I've played a thief... Beleif even RPed out failing a theft attempt. Not a critical where I was obviously pointed out but yeah... And it went along just fine.

Some other good advice... Is get a partner. Although an expert pickpocket works alone, those lamo unskilled dudes work together. If anything, have someone to pass the stuff off to so you aren't caught with it.


Creeper

[Lazloth]

Earlier this year I played a rinthi elf who wanted to steal Allanak ... she wanted to steal a templar, and possibly a large building.

Holy shit, but those are some aspirations!
Where the hell would you fence a templar?  Where can you hide a building?  ..and a whole city-state?     Man, I thought my sticky fingers were ballsy, but I pale next to that!

[gfair]

This sounds like good OOC advice for an aspiring thief. Just don't try and convince anyone that a packed, crowded place such as a busy tavern or popular bazaar, is not an appropriate IC place for a nondescript filching attempt.

The reason why, if you haven't noticed, is because there are a lot of wandering eyes in a tavern. If you don't know you won't get caught, you shouldn't be in a bar.

Though I should revise my advice - once you have been successful on a number of successful attempts, THEN you ought to be good enough to do it in a bar.

[gfair]

If somebody notices something is missing, or if they feel a hand in their pocket, that doesn't give them the right to blame it on the only person who could have done it from an OOC standpoint.  Is he the only person in the tavern that was standing up?  No, I'm sure there are plenty of virtual people milling about, unable to get a seat or whatnot.  Is he the only person that was near the victim at the time?  Again, no.  The point I'm trying to make is that a thief has an advantage in a large virtual crowd, but this advantage only works if people will CONSENT to it.

I'm going to only respond to one quote, since most of this response seemed to say the same thing.

There are a number of situations where a person would instantly, clearly know who stole from them.  If you're sitting at a table with your back to a wall, you're going to notice any stranger who comes near you.  The code doesn't reflect position and perspective, so it is just as easy to abuse your steal and peek skill without any regard for distance or position in the room, as it is to instantly know something is missing from your inventory.

Like I said originally, this is an issue that has been coming up repeatedly for as long as I've been playing.  Here is how I see the failings of each side in this debate.


A person/target in a tavern:

- You are sitting with a certain position, a certain perspective.  People who face the bar turn their back on a high-traffic area, and vice versa, so keep that in mind.  It is possible that you will have no idea who stole from you if you have your back to a lot of people, so you have to decide how you are seated, what you are facing, and what level of thief-awareness your character has at that moment.


- Sitting at a table without your back turned away from a high-traffic area, or the majority of the tavern, makes it much easier to see everything around you.

- In a seat where you look out to most of the tavern, you will automatically notice any stranger who comes into your "personal space", which is required to steal from someone.

- In taverns frequented by thieves, you will be much more aware than you will anywhere else, of what you carry.   You will also be much more protective, by stashing belongings away where they can't be found.

- If something gets stolen, you can get mad, but be logical.  If you're exposed to plenty of traffic, you may not know who it was.

- The same thing is true for crowded streets, bazaars, etc.



A thief in a tavern:

- Must know perspective to identify prime thieving targets.  You can't steal from just anyone in the tavern.  Opportunity greatly diminishes with people at tables, and practically doesn't exist at booths, whereas it's as good as you'll get with people seated at a bar, or moving about.

- Not everyone is drunk.  When in doubt as to the sobriety of someone, always wait to find out.  Stealing from sober people is much harder than from drunks.  If they're drunk and instantly point to you, that's probably good cause to cite them for code abuse.

- Just because it's crowded, doesn't mean it's easier to steal.  In large crowds, where people may suspect thieving, they will be a lot more aware of their possessions than they will in a quiet period of a tavern.

- Must know how unrealistic it is to steal heavy objects off a person.  Stealing a sword s extremely unrealistic due to its size, weight, and the noise it is likely to make when brushing against its sheath, and the risk of it touching the owner or anyone near him.

- Sitting at a table of strangers will set off every alarm, especially if you're an elf, so unless you are a master thief with a good cover, you aren't going to be successful.

- The same thing is true for crowded streets, bazaars, etc.


Lastly, I saw somebody mention that nobody knows how much VNPC traffic there is.   That's right, nobody knows - there is no independent means of determining the level of VNPC traffic when a thief tries to steal something.  Either thieves are more careful to get caught less, or wait for more PC traffic before they steal, or this issue will persist.  Regardless of all the wrongdoings any thief's player accuses others of doing, you still have plenty of opportunity to take action such that you don't get caught.



Just thinking this over has brought some questions to mind.

Firstly, is drunkenness coded in the game to greatly diminish observational skills, so even though a thief fails, he still goes unnoticed by the drunk?

Second - is there any way to find out if someone is drunk or not via a command?

Third - When people sit at tables and someone enters the room and types "L tables", does that list show the order in which the people sat at any given table?  For example, the characters that show up last in order at a table were the first to sit?  That, coupled with the assumption that the first to sit take the hardest spots to steal from, would make it easier for thieves to identify good targets in spots harder than those walking in a large crowd in the tavern, or sitting at the bar, turning their back on everyone.

[Pungee]

I don't like the idea of being able to 'check' for drunkeness via a coded command. Then I -cant- act drunk in order to accomplish something. Suppose I'm a militia member and I want to catch a pickpocket (lets say it was a slow week) so I go into a tavern, acting drunk and cursing the last place I was at saying how much I hate them since they cut me off blah blah blah. I stumble over to the bar and continue to act sloshed until someone brushes up against me and then I knock them on the ground, call in a few militia half-giants to drag them off to the prison and then have a good spot of torture and execution.

I'm not ACTUALLY drunk in that situation and if they could do a coded check for it, it'd completely eliminate a facet or two of RP that'd make things interesting. There aren't things like 'acting' or 'lie' skills and I'm glad there aren't, it allows for people to do things that aren't based on percentages which is where the fun happens.

[Lazloth]

Second - is there any way to find out if someone is drunk or not via a command?

Yes.

[naatok]

Well, considering that I've never played one of those paranoid pcs who is constantly checking to make sure his or her items are still on the body, unless your attempt to steal from one of my pcs alerts me (and thus my pc) to the attempt, chances are good you're going to get away Scot (Roman for Thief :twisted: ) free.

If, during your nefarious attempts at a five finger discount, I receive a message such as 'You feel someone's hands in your belongings, but you can't tell who.' or something similar, you can sure as shit expect a reaction from my pc.  If that message further gives a clue as to who the culprit is, you can probably expect a violent reaction.  Again, that depends on the pc I'm playing and their habits/personality.

If you screw up as a thief, don't whine when the Byn at the bar whose sword you were trying to filtch spins on her barstool and snatches your pc's wrist (emote and subdue command), and proceeds to beat the demons outta your pc.

[spawnloser]

I know what command you're talking about Lazloth, but I still don't like it...I think there should be a way to fake that too.  I'd elaborate, but I don't want to give away too much.

[Random]

If EvilRoeSlade, the original poster, is discussing the attempt I think, then here was the situation. It is boiled down so that not too much ic info is released.

Victim and some other person were sitting at the bar in one of the most busiest taverns in the city. I walked by the bar, spoke to the person the Victim was speaking to, smiled at her, answered a question. Then Victim apparently got one of those 'you feel hands but you don't know whose' messages. She spins around and starts to demand who touched her, looking around suspiciously. I give her a funny look, because the tavern is full of VNPC's especially at the bar. Could have been a random jostle. Then I walk out of the tavern.

Next thing I know my sdesc is posted, implying I am a thief. Did I try to steal? Doesn't matter in this instance. I don't mind being thought the thief oocly, though it bothers me that victim decided because I was leaving the tavern at that time that I was the one who attempted the theft. It's very ooc to think 'she was the only one (PC) standing who happened to walk by, she must be the one'. It's not very good role play, in my mind, to say it icly. Could have been any of the crowd trying to get to the bar to get a drink.

I am not whining. Thems the breaks in Zalanthas. I'm just setting the record straight for the purposes of this thread's discussion. And offering my own opinion.

[Impska]

Problem with skinnies in bars.

First, why is the skinny there?

I believe, according to the helpfiles that elves are the most populace race in the world besides human. Why is the skinny there? Why does it matter? There's a whole bunch of them there.

Now I don't mean to jump on you, Dazed, I think the rest of your advice is sound. I also think that elves are the most logical target for accusations. But that could be any elf. There's absolutely no reason for your character to auto-magickally know that the pc elf is the one who did it. Unless they fail their steal attempt, that is.

Just to comment on the rest - crowded bars, streets and market places are the most common places for real pickpockets to target people at. And no, no one really does notice, most of the time - I know I don't go around peering guardedly at everyone else's purses as I walk down the street. The deal with a skilled pick pocket is that if -you- don't notice them stealing your stuff, other people likely won't either. It's simply not that easy. When it comes down to it - where else would you pick pocket someone? It seems -more- risky to go and steal their wallet when you're one of three people in a room.

The code allows you to determine whether or not someone is skilled already, too. If you get no message, it means you have no clue who stole your shit. If you get a message, but the attempt is covered up - you may or may not suspect that an attempt was made, but since the code didn't tell you who did it, your character's magical skills of deduction probably don't point to the nearest standing pc. If you are given a message which tells you that you caught the person - it means they're not a very good pick pocket.

On another note, I think that it's quite the misuse of the ic board to post a thief's sdesc. There are thousands of thieves in Allanak, in all likelihood, and nearly everyone, from commoner to noble, has had an attempt made on them at some point, and likely had something stolen. Why would they care about the description of the thief that targetted you? The ic board is made to represent rumours and announcements that -everyone- would hear about and continue to spread about. Somehow, my image of Allanak doen't have people rushing home from work to tell their wife to be careful because "the haggard, greasy-haired elf" stole from someone they don't know.

If your character really feels the need to pass on the description of a thief, do it yourself, by word of mouth. Tell everyone you can, if you like, but don't use the board - it attaches an awful lot of importance to an event that just isn't important. Thieving is an hourly occurance.

And to go off on ic board ettiquette... posting a person's sdesc alone is no description at all. There is no reason in the world that I should know which "haggard, greasy-haired elf" you're even talking about. I don't know which "stocky, blue-eyed man" swore at the local Kadian merchant, or god forbid who that "tanned, dark-haired woman who works for Kurac" is. If you're going to post a person's description on the board, take the time to actually look at them and give some details. If you didn't get a good look, then you have no business posting about them on the board.