Looking diagonally

[Drayab]

Wouldn't it be nice if we could look northwest, southeast, etc.? I just hate it when I accidentially walk right up beside something nasty because I wasn't able to see it because it wasn't directly in some cardinal direction from me. I've played other diku-base muds that had this command with otherwise less sophisticated code. If I had to put my finger on the greatest weakness in the coding of Arm, this would be it. Has anyone else thought of this before?

Really, it seems like we ought to be able to look at the area surrounding us in a circular area rather than the cross that it is now. Of course, this is ignoring trees, sandstorms, changes in elevation, bahamets...

[Plazgoth]

Well the way I look at it is the following. Since each "room" is a fairly large area looking north-south and east-west covers a very large area which includes a pretty wide diagonal. If you think about it a while when you move from "room" to "room" you are crossing quite a bit of land, thus it does not make sense that you would see someone or something way to the north and way to the east or west.

If there was something implement regarding a diagonal direction, you should be able to move that way not just look. If you can see a big nasty to the northeast that nasty can also see you, and should be able to come and eat you.

[Moe]

The problem with that rationalization, is that a mob in the room, IMMEDIATELY attacks you, regardless of the room size. Or even from a direct room away. I agree with the orginal poster that you should be able to look diagonally.
-Moe the Schmoe
:twisted:  :evil:

[Drayab]

it does not make sense that you would see someone or something way to the north and way to the east or west.

I agree. It should be circular, not a square. But since the world is roughly a grid, it would actually be more like a diamond shape. For example, on a nice day when you look northeast you can see an area three 'squares' north and all those areas in between, another area 2 'squares' north and one east, another area 1 'square' north and two east, another area 1 'square' north and one east, and, of course, you can see the area three 'squares' to the east and all those in between. Basically, it's all those rooms within 3 'moves' from your position and within the arc formed by the vector that points north from your position and the vector that points east from your position.

Now that I think about it, that would be alot of information to get all at once, so maybe it would be better to leave out the rooms that are directly north and east. Leave those for the regular 'look north' and 'look east' commands. That would leave at best three rooms to get information about with the diagonal look.

If there was something implement regarding a diagonal direction, you should be able to move that way not just look.

I don't agree. It would certainly be nice to be able to move like that, but there must be some kind of difficulty with implementing it, otherwise it seems like more muds would let you do that. I've played other muds that had this kind of diagonal look without having a diagonal move as well and it wasn't a big deal.

If you can see a big nasty to the northeast that nasty can also see you, and should be able to come and eat you.

I think this is in the game already. For example, you might see a bahamet two areas to the north of you, but it doesn't chase you until it gets closer, either by a random move to the south or by you (stupidly?) moving closer to it. By the same token, you may see the bahamet just to the northeast (1 room north, 1 room east) of you, but it still doesn't attack. I can see your beef with this: logically, it should be the same distance from you as if it was directly to the north or east of you. If the bahamet makes chase when it find itself a distance of one room from you, then it should be attacking. However, since there is no diagonal move, it is actually two moves from you, not just one. It doesn't attack for the same reason that it doesn't attack when it is two squares directly to the north of you. Also, in bad weather that prohibits you from seeing two squares away you can't see the bahament to the northeast and you don't get the early warning. It's still possible to stumble into nasties if your out in the wilderness in bad weather. If you are being careful, you ought to be able to avoid it in good weather.

[creeper386]

I don't agree. It would certainly be nice to be able to move like that, but there must be some kind of difficulty with implementing it, otherwise it seems like more muds would let you do that. I've played other muds that had this kind of diagonal look without having a diagonal move as well and it wasn't a big deal.

Acctually, everyone new gen MUD code tends to have diagonal moving. I know for sure stock Smaug does. And I beleive if you go to the level older then that they do as well. Merc? Whichever that one is. Oh well. It's fairly easier.

And over all... I think it'd would work the same... Intelligent creatures that can see you and would attack, would still attack but they wouldn't move diagonally they'd have to move on the grid. Unintelligent creatures or ones that don't see you, still won't attack unless their close enough to recognize you as food and such. Of course it'd also be nice to have elevation coded to be able to see further or not see at all... Behind one of those dunes on a clear day you can't see the other side and two rooms beyond that for example.

Hmm... Over all, I don't know. I'd like some creatures to have more of a wait before they attack. Normally if your out on the plains and paying attention your going to see that charging elephant to at least start running, but... over all I haven't yet run into a creature or creatures that a good group of five skilled people that know what they are doing can't kill or run away from without cassualties... So don't see it TOO much of a problem unless you play solo characters... hehe. Then your in trouble.


Creeper who suggests a faster mount... Or boots of sand running +2 for you elves. :-p

I think the problems with adding more directions is the poor staff will have to go through -every- room and add four more links to the rest of the rooms. Maybe there'd be an algorithm that could apply it to all outdoor rooms, then have the staff fix the ones back that shouldn't be so, since it seems there would be more rooms that would need it than not. But anyway, still a lot of time and effort needed, and we seem to be doing well without it.

[Drayab]

I think the problems with adding more directions is the poor staff will have to go through -every- room and add four more links to the rest of the rooms.

What do you mean 'four more links?' What are they for?

You think that in order for this to work the rooms will need to be 'linked' with the rooms that are northeast, northwest, etc. from them?

Granted, I really have no idea how the game world is structured internally, but I always imagined each room as having a latitude, longitude, and an elevation coordinate. That alone should be enough to just look.

Yeah, most people are getting along just fine as it is now. But something like this would give (another) nice touch of realism to the game, I think. It would also help out all the lone rangers out there. (Like me)

Drayab, who joined the programming team last year and now thinks he's a pro.

[Lazloth]

Get yourself dikuedit or some utility for map building and play around.  To redo the world for these additional directions would be an overwhelming task, imho not even worth the energy of consideration.

[creeper386]

Alright. Not saying I'm for or against this. Just trying to help get things clarified.

Get yourself dikuedit or some utility for map building and play around. To redo the world for these additional directions would be an overwhelming task, imho not even worth the energy of consideration.

Whats being suggested, ISN'T that every room be added with these directions. It's being suggested that the look command be modified. I'm sure it can be coded to work this way, fairly easiely with a modification to the look code. Which WOULDN'T require the slightest change in any other area. Although it might require some change with NPC scripts on how to handle the new information. Where to walk now if they see someone in that direction.

The only problem would come in would be how to determine rather or not you could see that way... Maybe if it's possible to go north west, or west north both ways to get to the room you would be able to look nw? I don't know. It'd be interesting... But it still might take a good amount of work without adding in more directions.

Creeper

[Lazloth]

Whats being suggested, ISN'T that every room be added with these directions. It's being suggested that the look command be modified.

I hadn't considered that; the obvious corollary would be, however, if you can look around in a circle, why can't you walk it?  Additionally, with non-linear areas, there would be some difficulty in hashing around directions that are not readily connected.

It's a worthy proposal, but I still don't think it's an easy fix and not remotely necessary (imho).

[creeper386]

I think it'd be nice for large animals and such to have echoes... Because when they are at a diagonal you can't tell they are there untill they are right on top of you... It's alittle odd. Could be the same with a mass of people moving in with kanks might not make alot of noise but could very well draw attention...

Something large is moving to the northwest.

Type of thing... Even if it's just a large group of walking men.

SHRUG. Again don't really see a problem, but could see where it could be useful. Specially on dark nights when the massive mek' can sneak right up on you.

Creeper

[Dakkon Black]

Creeper your a genius. I think that the echo idea would not only be 10x better than every ranger typing look even more every step they take, it would also add some wicked atmosphere. I love the Idea.

You hear a small noise north-east

You Think "heh"

North

East

You see a Silt Horror making small noises.

You think ".... shit"

[Lazloth]

I'm a big proponent for atmospheric echoes and the like, but it's a large suspension of disbelief to envision, above and beyond all of the [virtual] noise, that your character is perceptive enough to 'hear' the slithering of a snake from two miles off.

Well, maybe tweak listen to hear the small noises, and let everyone hear "THE RUMBLING OF T3H MEK TO THE NORTH" message. (Yes, that's an exact quote of what the echo will be, the staff have gone l33t)

I wouldnt be opposed to Northwest, Northeast, Southeast, Southwest in the wastes, where such travel would probably be more needed, and beneficial (travelling southwest;southwest;southwest;southwest through an area instead of repeatedly west;south;west;south;west;south;west;south.) But in cities, I think its fine as it is. Most roads are angular, but a few areas might be improved by it... like the Rinth could be made more confusing!

[Drayab]

the obvious corollary would be, however, if you can look around in a circle, why can't you walk it?

Yeah, being able to walk diagonally would be nice, but it is easy to understand why changing the game to allow that would be a lot of work for not much in return. Since I've seen other muds with the diagonal look and without the diagonal walk, I thought it must not be a big deal to extend the regular look command to give the diagonal look. I thought about how I would code it some, and I thought it seemed like an easy enough problem, so I decided I would suggest it. It would certainly be helpful to my loner type character. From some of the posts in this thread, I gather that most people travel in groups, and so they don't need to worry so much about accidentially running into a baddie.

Okay, I'm rambling. The point is, you've got to draw the line on realism somewhere because some things we'd like to have are too difficult to code. I figured this wasn't so hard to code and would add a nice touch to the game. Once this is in place, things like what Creeper has mentioned about the diagonal listening would become feasible.

Okay, I'm still rambling. Everyone probably already knows this stuff.

Additionally, with non-linear areas, there would be some difficulty in hashing around directions that are not readily connected.

Yeah, you're right on that account. I've seen that as a bug before. Like, being able to see through walls, or into the wrong room. It would be easy to code it to work in big, open areas, but in more tricky places like cities and 'non-linear areas' (I assume you mean areas that don't form a nice grid?) the code would have to be (much?) more sophisticated.