True Names?

[ibusoe]

Rotten, which "Malik" is the right one? And what stops someone with the same name coming by and picking it up? Would it need truenames? And what if you said "Give this to Ames" instead of Amos, can you get it back?

This quote by Riev bothers me.  It's not because I have a problem with Riev -- I don't.  He's a nice guy.

Likewise, it wasn't that he didn't have a point to make, he did.  It was his use of the word truename.  It's a pet peeve of mine.

The thing is that we don't have truenames.  In the real world, they don't exist.  Incorporating them into the game is mildly unrealistic and even worse, encourages sloppy game play.  Players like them because they discourage mistaken identity.  Players don't like situations where they make a typo and end up kissing the wrong person, or attacking the wrong person, or handing an NPC 300 gems instead of 300 feathers with no way to get them back.

Mistaken identity can be a real inconvenience in the same way that a sandstorm can be an inconvenience, but much like a sandstorm, mistaken identity is a fact of life.  Confusing people is a necessary part of deception and players who cannot deal with being deceived should learn to better accommodate the harsh atmosphere of the game.

I make this post understanding that there has been a stronger demand for "truename" or hard-coded identity, however I feel that this is a slippery slope and this topic should receive extensive discussion.

[X-D]

No more unrealistic then magick.

In many RL mythos the truename of something or someone holds power of a kind. Hell, in many religions, past and present, this is also the case.

In many books of fiction (Read the wizard of earthsea series sometime).

This might very well be the case in Zalanthas as well.

[Synthesis]

Yeah, the "true name" concept is pretty stock fare for fantasy.

I don't see what the problem is.

[Jestor]

Yup what X-D said and add to it this little quip from Wikipedia:

A true name is a name of a thing or being that expresses, or is somehow identical with, its true nature. The notion that language, or some specific sacred language, refers to things by their true names has been central to magic, religious invocation and mysticism (mantras) since antiquity.

Who knows maybe this is in Zalanthas.

[Gimfalisette]

Well, technically your PC's truename is actually the unique numeric identifier which defines his/her row in the character database. He may think he's Amos, but in reality he's just charID 73982345.

But to the point of the original post, truenames aren't any more jarring to me than the entire idea of magick is, or the implementation thereof.

I do wish that players would less often indulge their desire to hide from the effects of code, and perhaps roll a PC or three that has no clue about the power of truenames.

[brytta.leofa]

I think the Staff are stringing us along on this point.

We can neither confirm nor deny that wearing armor or clothing made from formerly-living material (leather, chitin) aids in the maintenance of psionic barriers.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Huh?

[Gimfalisette]

We can neither confirm nor deny that wearing armor or clothing made from formerly-living material (leather, chitin) aids in the maintenance of psionic barriers.

If people only knew what can be done with goudra tails.

[Lizzie]

You can keep your stankin goudra tail, I got my smooth black stone.

[Nyr]

I'm not sure what your complaint is, ibusoe.  Could you elaborate?

[Gimfalisette]

Mistaken identity can be a real inconvenience in the same way that a sandstorm can be an inconvenience, but much like a sandstorm, mistaken identity is a fact of life.  Confusing people is a necessary part of deception and players who cannot deal with being deceived should learn to better accommodate the harsh atmosphere of the game.

From a systems-analysis standpoint, the reason why we don't have cases of mistaken identity in ARM isn't because PCs have truenames, or PCs have identifiers at all; it's because there are simply not enough PCs for anyone to blend into the crowd and disappear. And, because we don't have mobility between locations of play. You can't roll a PC in Tuluk, go on a crime spree there, escape to Allanak (or the Tablelands or wherever) and remain unnoticed. But if we had 2 or 3 times as many PCs, and there was mobility between settlements, then PCs would more often have similar sdescs and similar roles and similar locations, and it would be possible to do the deed and then slip away into anonymity.

Names, keywords, sdescs and all that make the game playable--in a coded system, there must be methods of targeting PCs for various uses of code. We could never get rid of those things, because it would break the game. Truenames aren't the real issue, because the knowledge of any applicable keyword makes a PC targetable, which is as it should be.

[Riev]

What did I start? I DIDN'T MEAN TO DO IT I SWEAR!

All I'd meant by true names in that post, was that if two characters had the exact same name, the system in question would be very difficult to keep in a form of checks and balances. In fact, "true name" in that post DID mean char row 225115.

True names, in fantasy, are everything, and there are still cultures that believe whoever has access to your "real" name gains power over you. Does 'EVERYONE' need to have nicknames, and to avoid using their real name? No. Some of my characters definitely nickname themselves "Slashy" and "Fisty", but sometimes maybe my "true name" IS Slashy, because my parents were trying one of those hippie "If I name him after something I want him to be, he'll be it." scenarios.

Wait, what was the topic again?

[Dalmeth]

But to the point of the original post, truenames aren't any more jarring to me than the entire idea of magick is, or the implementation thereof.

First, you can point out other mysticisms where true names are a vital concept, but name me one where your true name is the name given to you by your parents.  Unless every parent in Zalanthas communes with the universe when they choose the name of their child, the concept of using the original name stated at character creation is bunk.

I do wish that players would less often indulge their desire to hide from the effects of code, and perhaps roll a PC or three that has no clue about the power of truenames.

If this wasn't considered OOC information, it could be a cultural element.  Another way magick oppresses the people of Zalanthas.  Rituals could be made to introduce one's true name to others. 

Why isn't it?

Because it only applies to a few pieces of badly implemented code.  I mean horribly implemented.  Some of them don't even echo to the room when used.  So far as I know, the true name concept only came about because those pieces of code needed some reliable method of targeting in one keyword.

Well, guess what?  Contact got an upgrade and still that problem wasn't fixed.  Now we've extended the, "." notation.  It's one keyword now.  It's time to fix it.

[Gimfalisette]

First, you can point out other mysticisms where true names are a vital concept, but name me one where your true name is the name given to you by your parents.  Unless every parent in Zalanthas communes with the universe when they choose the name of their child, the concept of using the original name stated at character creation is bunk.

Oh, I really agree with that. I'd love a system where a truename actually had an RPed meaning in game, rather than being pretty much a throwaway of background. It would be neat, when playing a PC who had reason to do so, to take them on a vision quest or something to discover their truename--and not have access to that information until then. (Would suck to find out one's truename is Tregil, however.)

I agree with you about the crappiness of the current code overall, too.

[Nyr]

Is the question about "truenames" and whether they exist or have use in Zalanthas (IC vs OOC) or about the necessity of people using keywords to target other people?

[Gimfalisette]

Is the question about "truenames" and whether they exist or have use in Zalanthas (IC vs OOC) or about the necessity of people using keywords to target other people?

I interpreted ibusoe as primarily wanting to discuss the mistaken identities issue.

[Dalmeth]

Is the question about "truenames" and whether they exist or have use in Zalanthas (IC vs OOC) or about the necessity of people using keywords to target other people?

I interpreted it as both.  A lot of people seem to use the true name concept as an IC fill-in for those instances where the first name chosen at character creation is used to target a skill, but in the broader sense of the game world, it doesn't really apply anywhere else but those few instances.

It's a gray area that's developed over time from the need to identify PCs in-game for targeting and then identify this need for one's character to gain this absolute identifier in a way that makes sense.

I believe he referred to an increasingly incongruous form of play deriving from this gray area.

[Old Kank]

I'm not really sure what ibueso's whole point was, exactly, but I'm going to throw a little sympathy his way, 'cause this is one of my pet peeves too:

I think a lot of players take nicknames and "true names" to a ridiculous extreme.  I say that because most PCs with a nickname will never use their character's real name.  If you make a PC named "Myxlpyxl" and you immediately add the keyword, "Dark Nose," and that's the only name you ever give out, then your character's "true name" is Dark Nose.  If you've never tried it, it's very hard to start using a nickname once your PC's true name is out in the player base.  I guess even we players seem to put some sacred value on the "true name" concept (or maybe people balk at calling Joe the Newbie ridiculous stuff like "Scareye" or "Death Hand Omega," I don't know.)

Except for PCs from groups that routinely use insider/outsider names, I think I can count on one hand the number of PCs that have started out with a "true name" and then transitioned to a nickname over the course of that character's life.  Those PCs are awesome.  PCs that "start" with a nickname and never use a "true name" are just... stock fantasy.

My point is this:  If your PC has a nickname, great, fine, but use their "true name" once in a while, too.  Otherwise, you aren't keeping a secret, your character just has a name/keyword that's never used.

[ibusoe]

I interpreted it as both.  A lot of people seem to use the true name concept as an IC fill-in for those instances where the first name chosen at character creation is used to target a skill, but in the broader sense of the game world, it doesn't really apply anywhere else but those few instances.

It's a gray area that's developed over time from the need to identify PCs in-game for targeting and then identify this need for one's character to gain this absolute identifier in a way that makes sense.

I believe he referred to an increasingly incongruous form of play deriving from this gray area.

A couple of people asked me what I was trying to discuss.  I feel as though Dalmeth expressed it much better than I could.

Also, the following two statements support my point:

First, you can point out other mysticisms where true names are a vital concept, but name me one where your true name is the name given to you by your parents.  Unless every parent in Zalanthas communes with the universe when they choose the name of their child, the concept of using the original name stated at character creation is bunk.

  If you've never tried it, it's very hard to start using a nickname once your PC's true name is out in the player base.  I guess even we players seem to put some sacred value on the "true name" concept (or maybe people balk at calling Joe the Newbie ridiculous stuff like "Scareye" or "Death Hand Omega," I don't know.)

[X-D]

My point is this:  If your PC has a nickname, great, fine, but use their "true name" once in a while, too.  Otherwise, you aren't keeping a secret, your character just has a name/keyword that's never used.

So, on a lark I looked up secret...and you know, none of the definitions are: Secret: Something kept hidden part of the time.

No, it is, Something kept hidden, concealed.

As far as anybody is concerned though, this subject is also much like people talking about poor RP when they cannot see the thinks or feels etc. There is no way for most of you to know if somebody has given his truename to somebody he trusts.

[musashi]

In response to Gimf, while I agree that you can't blend into the crowd and slip away due to the size of the player base ... ... you can disappear to an iso area for a RL month and then come back in different clothing. Most of the folks you upset will probably be dead by then 

[Pale Horse]

In response to Gimf, while I agree that you can't blend into the crowd and slip away due to the size of the player base ... ... you can disappear to an iso area for a RL month and then come back in different clothing. Most of the folks you upset will probably be dead by then 

A month?  Psh.  Try two weeks.

[Gimfalisette]

Yeah, that's undoubtedly true. Unless you want to con Pale Horse's PC!

[musashi]

Some folks are more stubborn than others when it comes to dieing ... I agree, but in general ... give it a RL month and you'll find a brand new population in whatever city-state you ran away from 

[Pale Horse]

Yeah, that's undoubtedly true. Unless you want to con Pale Horse's PC!

Some folks are more stubborn than others when it comes to dieing ... I agree, but in general ... give it a RL month and you'll find a brand new population in whatever city-state you ran away from 

There's a reason I chose this as my GDB handle.