True Names?

[ibusoe]

Rotten, which "Malik" is the right one? And what stops someone with the same name coming by and picking it up? Would it need truenames? And what if you said "Give this to Ames" instead of Amos, can you get it back?

This quote by Riev bothers me.  It's not because I have a problem with Riev -- I don't.  He's a nice guy.

Likewise, it wasn't that he didn't have a point to make, he did.  It was his use of the word truename.  It's a pet peeve of mine.

The thing is that we don't have truenames.  In the real world, they don't exist.  Incorporating them into the game is mildly unrealistic and even worse, encourages sloppy game play.  Players like them because they discourage mistaken identity.  Players don't like situations where they make a typo and end up kissing the wrong person, or attacking the wrong person, or handing an NPC 300 gems instead of 300 feathers with no way to get them back.

Mistaken identity can be a real inconvenience in the same way that a sandstorm can be an inconvenience, but much like a sandstorm, mistaken identity is a fact of life.  Confusing people is a necessary part of deception and players who cannot deal with being deceived should learn to better accommodate the harsh atmosphere of the game.

I make this post understanding that there has been a stronger demand for "truename" or hard-coded identity, however I feel that this is a slippery slope and this topic should receive extensive discussion.

[X-D]

No more unrealistic then magick.

In many RL mythos the truename of something or someone holds power of a kind. Hell, in many religions, past and present, this is also the case.

In many books of fiction (Read the wizard of earthsea series sometime).

This might very well be the case in Zalanthas as well.

[Synthesis]

Yeah, the "true name" concept is pretty stock fare for fantasy.

I don't see what the problem is.

[Jestor]

Yup what X-D said and add to it this little quip from Wikipedia:

A true name is a name of a thing or being that expresses, or is somehow identical with, its true nature. The notion that language, or some specific sacred language, refers to things by their true names has been central to magic, religious invocation and mysticism (mantras) since antiquity.

Who knows maybe this is in Zalanthas.

[Gimfalisette]

Well, technically your PC's truename is actually the unique numeric identifier which defines his/her row in the character database. He may think he's Amos, but in reality he's just charID 73982345.

But to the point of the original post, truenames aren't any more jarring to me than the entire idea of magick is, or the implementation thereof.

I do wish that players would less often indulge their desire to hide from the effects of code, and perhaps roll a PC or three that has no clue about the power of truenames.

[brytta.leofa]

I think the Staff are stringing us along on this point.

We can neither confirm nor deny that wearing armor or clothing made from formerly-living material (leather, chitin) aids in the maintenance of psionic barriers.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Huh?

[Gimfalisette]

We can neither confirm nor deny that wearing armor or clothing made from formerly-living material (leather, chitin) aids in the maintenance of psionic barriers.

If people only knew what can be done with goudra tails.

[Lizzie]

You can keep your stankin goudra tail, I got my smooth black stone.

[Nyr]

I'm not sure what your complaint is, ibusoe.  Could you elaborate?

[Gimfalisette]

Mistaken identity can be a real inconvenience in the same way that a sandstorm can be an inconvenience, but much like a sandstorm, mistaken identity is a fact of life.  Confusing people is a necessary part of deception and players who cannot deal with being deceived should learn to better accommodate the harsh atmosphere of the game.

From a systems-analysis standpoint, the reason why we don't have cases of mistaken identity in ARM isn't because PCs have truenames, or PCs have identifiers at all; it's because there are simply not enough PCs for anyone to blend into the crowd and disappear. And, because we don't have mobility between locations of play. You can't roll a PC in Tuluk, go on a crime spree there, escape to Allanak (or the Tablelands or wherever) and remain unnoticed. But if we had 2 or 3 times as many PCs, and there was mobility between settlements, then PCs would more often have similar sdescs and similar roles and similar locations, and it would be possible to do the deed and then slip away into anonymity.

Names, keywords, sdescs and all that make the game playable--in a coded system, there must be methods of targeting PCs for various uses of code. We could never get rid of those things, because it would break the game. Truenames aren't the real issue, because the knowledge of any applicable keyword makes a PC targetable, which is as it should be.

[Riev]

What did I start? I DIDN'T MEAN TO DO IT I SWEAR!

All I'd meant by true names in that post, was that if two characters had the exact same name, the system in question would be very difficult to keep in a form of checks and balances. In fact, "true name" in that post DID mean char row 225115.

True names, in fantasy, are everything, and there are still cultures that believe whoever has access to your "real" name gains power over you. Does 'EVERYONE' need to have nicknames, and to avoid using their real name? No. Some of my characters definitely nickname themselves "Slashy" and "Fisty", but sometimes maybe my "true name" IS Slashy, because my parents were trying one of those hippie "If I name him after something I want him to be, he'll be it." scenarios.

Wait, what was the topic again?

[Dalmeth]

But to the point of the original post, truenames aren't any more jarring to me than the entire idea of magick is, or the implementation thereof.

First, you can point out other mysticisms where true names are a vital concept, but name me one where your true name is the name given to you by your parents.  Unless every parent in Zalanthas communes with the universe when they choose the name of their child, the concept of using the original name stated at character creation is bunk.

I do wish that players would less often indulge their desire to hide from the effects of code, and perhaps roll a PC or three that has no clue about the power of truenames.

If this wasn't considered OOC information, it could be a cultural element.  Another way magick oppresses the people of Zalanthas.  Rituals could be made to introduce one's true name to others. 

Why isn't it?

Because it only applies to a few pieces of badly implemented code.  I mean horribly implemented.  Some of them don't even echo to the room when used.  So far as I know, the true name concept only came about because those pieces of code needed some reliable method of targeting in one keyword.

Well, guess what?  Contact got an upgrade and still that problem wasn't fixed.  Now we've extended the, "." notation.  It's one keyword now.  It's time to fix it.

[Gimfalisette]

First, you can point out other mysticisms where true names are a vital concept, but name me one where your true name is the name given to you by your parents.  Unless every parent in Zalanthas communes with the universe when they choose the name of their child, the concept of using the original name stated at character creation is bunk.

Oh, I really agree with that. I'd love a system where a truename actually had an RPed meaning in game, rather than being pretty much a throwaway of background. It would be neat, when playing a PC who had reason to do so, to take them on a vision quest or something to discover their truename--and not have access to that information until then. (Would suck to find out one's truename is Tregil, however.)

I agree with you about the crappiness of the current code overall, too.

[Nyr]

Is the question about "truenames" and whether they exist or have use in Zalanthas (IC vs OOC) or about the necessity of people using keywords to target other people?

[Gimfalisette]

Is the question about "truenames" and whether they exist or have use in Zalanthas (IC vs OOC) or about the necessity of people using keywords to target other people?

I interpreted ibusoe as primarily wanting to discuss the mistaken identities issue.

[Dalmeth]

Is the question about "truenames" and whether they exist or have use in Zalanthas (IC vs OOC) or about the necessity of people using keywords to target other people?

I interpreted it as both.  A lot of people seem to use the true name concept as an IC fill-in for those instances where the first name chosen at character creation is used to target a skill, but in the broader sense of the game world, it doesn't really apply anywhere else but those few instances.

It's a gray area that's developed over time from the need to identify PCs in-game for targeting and then identify this need for one's character to gain this absolute identifier in a way that makes sense.

I believe he referred to an increasingly incongruous form of play deriving from this gray area.

[Old Kank]

I'm not really sure what ibueso's whole point was, exactly, but I'm going to throw a little sympathy his way, 'cause this is one of my pet peeves too:

I think a lot of players take nicknames and "true names" to a ridiculous extreme.  I say that because most PCs with a nickname will never use their character's real name.  If you make a PC named "Myxlpyxl" and you immediately add the keyword, "Dark Nose," and that's the only name you ever give out, then your character's "true name" is Dark Nose.  If you've never tried it, it's very hard to start using a nickname once your PC's true name is out in the player base.  I guess even we players seem to put some sacred value on the "true name" concept (or maybe people balk at calling Joe the Newbie ridiculous stuff like "Scareye" or "Death Hand Omega," I don't know.)

Except for PCs from groups that routinely use insider/outsider names, I think I can count on one hand the number of PCs that have started out with a "true name" and then transitioned to a nickname over the course of that character's life.  Those PCs are awesome.  PCs that "start" with a nickname and never use a "true name" are just... stock fantasy.

My point is this:  If your PC has a nickname, great, fine, but use their "true name" once in a while, too.  Otherwise, you aren't keeping a secret, your character just has a name/keyword that's never used.

[ibusoe]

I interpreted it as both.  A lot of people seem to use the true name concept as an IC fill-in for those instances where the first name chosen at character creation is used to target a skill, but in the broader sense of the game world, it doesn't really apply anywhere else but those few instances.

It's a gray area that's developed over time from the need to identify PCs in-game for targeting and then identify this need for one's character to gain this absolute identifier in a way that makes sense.

I believe he referred to an increasingly incongruous form of play deriving from this gray area.

A couple of people asked me what I was trying to discuss.  I feel as though Dalmeth expressed it much better than I could.

Also, the following two statements support my point:

First, you can point out other mysticisms where true names are a vital concept, but name me one where your true name is the name given to you by your parents.  Unless every parent in Zalanthas communes with the universe when they choose the name of their child, the concept of using the original name stated at character creation is bunk.

  If you've never tried it, it's very hard to start using a nickname once your PC's true name is out in the player base.  I guess even we players seem to put some sacred value on the "true name" concept (or maybe people balk at calling Joe the Newbie ridiculous stuff like "Scareye" or "Death Hand Omega," I don't know.)

[X-D]

My point is this:  If your PC has a nickname, great, fine, but use their "true name" once in a while, too.  Otherwise, you aren't keeping a secret, your character just has a name/keyword that's never used.

So, on a lark I looked up secret...and you know, none of the definitions are: Secret: Something kept hidden part of the time.

No, it is, Something kept hidden, concealed.

As far as anybody is concerned though, this subject is also much like people talking about poor RP when they cannot see the thinks or feels etc. There is no way for most of you to know if somebody has given his truename to somebody he trusts.

[musashi]

In response to Gimf, while I agree that you can't blend into the crowd and slip away due to the size of the player base ... ... you can disappear to an iso area for a RL month and then come back in different clothing. Most of the folks you upset will probably be dead by then 

[Pale Horse]

In response to Gimf, while I agree that you can't blend into the crowd and slip away due to the size of the player base ... ... you can disappear to an iso area for a RL month and then come back in different clothing. Most of the folks you upset will probably be dead by then 

A month?  Psh.  Try two weeks.

[Gimfalisette]

Yeah, that's undoubtedly true. Unless you want to con Pale Horse's PC!

[musashi]

Some folks are more stubborn than others when it comes to dieing ... I agree, but in general ... give it a RL month and you'll find a brand new population in whatever city-state you ran away from 

[Pale Horse]

Yeah, that's undoubtedly true. Unless you want to con Pale Horse's PC!

Some folks are more stubborn than others when it comes to dieing ... I agree, but in general ... give it a RL month and you'll find a brand new population in whatever city-state you ran away from 

There's a reason I chose this as my GDB handle.

[musashi]

I figured it was because you liked drinking.

[Pale Horse]

I figured it was because you liked drinking.

Isn't that what I was pointing out? 

[musashi]

Yay!

[spicemustflow]

I love the idea of true names, and always thought it existed in Zalanthas, whether my char was aware of it or not. Actually most people have some idea about it, since you frequently hear that someone who's hiring leaves only his name as a contact information.

Now, people can leave an addkeyworded nickname as a contact info, which means that... yes names, given or earned are a part of what you are somehow. Which gives plenty of space for mystical and superstitious RP. Or it's just that I like to think about that.

[Rotten]

Problem : there's nothing mystic about true names in Zalanthas.  They're just the name chosen at character creation.

[X-D]

How exactly do you know that?

I mean, your wrong, but still.

[ibusoe]

Problem : there's nothing mystic about true names in Zalanthas.  They're just the name chosen at character creation.

True.

And furthermore, we're running into all kinds of game mechanics problems.

Example -- someone decides to call your character John Dillinger
Results -- staff forces you to add John and Dillinger as keywords
Results -- you can be instantly identified in a crowd of 300 people whenever someone types "look Dillinger" even if you're wearing two cloaks, a veil, a facemask, three facewraps, sunglasses, and three layers of teen-age girl makeup.

[ibusoe]

How exactly do you know that?

I mean, your wrong, but still.

Seems like we've reached the point where we're arguing instead of discussing.  And it also seems like both sides have valid points but there is no central consensus.

[X-D]

I was replying to Rotten Ibusoe.

I actually agree that there should be a way around the problem you posted.

I remember a few years ago somebody left nak, stayed gone for a while, did all the RP to get desc changes and such. came back quite some game time later and on a lark I checked on a keyword in a tavern and wow, there they are.

I still played it that my PC did not know who they were...but still.

[Lizzie]

I was replying to Rotten Ibusoe.

I actually agree that there should be a way around the problem you posted.

I remember a few years ago somebody left nak, stayed gone for a while, did all the RP to get desc changes and such. came back quite some game time later and on a lark I checked on a keyword in a tavern and wow, there they are.

I still played it that my PC did not know who they were...but still.

Amos doesn't count. However...to defend against Ibusoe's argument...if I saw some guy wearing two masks, two cloaks, three facewraps, a pair of sunslits, and girlish teenage makeup, and hear someone call him John Dillinger, you can bet your ass that when I try to look at John Dillinger, that is EXACTLY who I will be looking at. I will -not- be looking at the red-eyed dwarf wearing a loincloth and walking around barefoot, even if he does have his hood up.

[Rhyden]

I think Ibusoe was pointing out the little difference between seeing John Dillenger as the tall, muscular man and with two cloaks, masks, etc. while still being able to identify him based on his 'true name'. It's a good argument, but probably difficult to rectify with the code.

[Lizzie]

Right, but if I heard him called John Dillinger, then that's what he'd be, to me. If I heard him called Daisy Buchanan, then that's what he'd be to me. It wouldn't matter if it was his true name or not. Whatever name I know him as, is whatever name I know him as. If I hear that he's called five different names, then I will know that he's called five different names. If I hear all five of those names, then I will know him as all five. I might not know which one is his "true" name but RPwise, it won't matter.

[SmashedTregil]

Shrug. The first character I played knew the concept of true names. Long before I learned their significance in a coded way, my characters differentiated their 'true' name and 'other' names. Simply because I felt that's what my characters would do. It creates an awesome roleplay tool, when you're capable of showing trust to some other person by giving them your true name. 

[Jingo]

Wha'?

[Riev]

Along with what ST is saying, most of the time my characters take their birth-name as something for family. You earn nicknames, like Tulukis earn tattoos, over the course of your life with your action or inaction.

To give someone your birth name isn't something mystical, its just a sign of trust. For me, at least.

[jstorrie]

It may or may not be true that true names are important to sorcery, elementalism, psionics, or some other sort of wacky Zalanthan mumbo-jumbo in-game, but for obvious reasons we can not discuss that.

[Dalmeth]

How exactly do you know that?

I mean, your wrong, but still.

It's this kind of stuff that is very not helpful.

You're wrong.  There isn't an IC justification for true names beyond targeting for certain very specific skills.

For the rest of the playerbase, for almost every character on Zalanthas, they don't exist.  They're a player-made concept to explain away code realities, and it's jarring.  Also, it doesn't matter if the staff developed these explanations, 'cause they're still stupid.

I have two solutions, either let the rest of the world know about them or remove their relevancy entirely.  Call them the name the person in particular most associates with themselves, and therefore has the most presence over the Way.  Anything.  It's just something like that should be widely known.  The strict absence of mystical-level knowledge for the majority of the population of the game world is another OOC construct.  It is one to keep everyone from knowing too much about the workings of magickers and psionicists and three-fingered, five-headed toads, the limit of such knowledge being another grey area, but it strangles any attempt for the average character to deal with these mystical concepts that face them everyday in an IC manner.

There's two options for fixing.  Discuss.

[Yseulte]

How exactly do you know that?

I mean, your wrong, but still.

It's this kind of stuff that is very not helpful.

You're wrong.  There isn't an IC justification for true names beyond targeting for certain very specific skills.

For the rest of the playerbase, for almost every character on Zalanthas, they don't exist.  They're a player-made concept to explain away code realities, and it's jarring.  Also, it doesn't matter if the staff developed these explanations, 'cause they're still stupid.

No. X-D is right, you are wrong in this case.

True names have a very significant role to a majority of the characters on Zalanthas whether the player realizes or not. This very well could have began as a player-created notion and adopted later by staff. This is something that is vital to many clans/tribes/areas of the world.

Just because you lack this information doesn't make those who possess it 'wrong'. This tradition in Zalanthas is no more jarring or 'stupid' then several of the cultures in our world who believe that giving away your 'true name' the name of your birth, gives away a power with it even your soul. This was a very big, very vital belief within several Native American tribes and even within early peoples of eastern and southern Europe. It is also a very common practice in fantasy settings.

[Spice Spice Baby]

This is something that is vital to many clans/tribes/areas of the world.

Yep, this.

I can think of at least three cultures in the game that I've played in where a person's true name or birth name are considered very culturally important and the individual in question will go their entire lives hopefully revealing that name to nobody but family or a trusted inner circle.

[jhunter]

Because of OOC abuse regarding "true names" I'd rather they had no significance codedly at all.

[Rotten]

Hrm, that wasn't supposed to go here.

[Dalmeth]

True names have a very significant role to a majority of the characters on Zalanthas whether the player realizes or not.

So why aren't they allowed to know it?

That's my problem.  You point out a few isolated situations where players have been allowed to work with true names, and yet still, the general population is not allowed to know about them.  All you've done is convince me that the concept is worked too deep into the game to remove.  Many consider it abuse of IC information to use the knowledge that true names do exist over characters, in spite of the fact they are mentioned in the, "help contact," file, and in spite of the fact it is a mechanical feature of the reality used in the game.  Why must the fact that true names exist be secret?

Code Select Expand

Psi Contact  (Communication)

The contact command will allow your character to attempt to establish a direct mental link with another person in the world. It is necessary to create this link in order to perform a majority of psi commands, and in order to cast some powerful spells. Contacting others is a skill that only increases with practice. The cease command is used to sever the psionic link.

Contacts can be blocked by psionic barriers, sleep, and areas of magickal suppression. As with all sustained psionic powers, the cease command will cut the mental link. The duration of a direct mental link is dependent upon your character's wisdom attribute and skill proficiency.

Syntax:
    contact <keyword> [keyword+]
    -or-
    contact #.keyword

    psi <message>
    cease

    Examples:
    > contact plain brown human

    > contact 3.stubby

    > contact Boopsie
    > psi How's it going, milord?
    > cease

    Note:
    Getting the message that you cannot reach their mind is a normal
    occurrence. You may lack sufficient skill with the Way to find their
    mind, or that person may not be available. You do not need to know
    someone's name in order to contact them -- one or more keywords can
    be specified instead.

    Using multiple keywords is interpreted as forming a more complete
    picture of the person you intend to contact, and increases your chances
    of reaching their mind.

    [b]Likewise, using a person's true name is a powerful means of increasing
    your chances of contacting them.[/b]

    You can only specify a number argument as the first argument, and
    if you do, any extra keywords you specified will be ignored.

    Some players choose to portray images or their own feelings over
    a psionic link and this is allowed. However, forcing emotions,
    sensations, or thoughts onto the receiver is not acceptable.

    See also:
    cease, contact, Psionics


Taken straight from the help files.  If I was a person fresh into the game, I'd wonder what a true name was.  There's no further explanation.  They'd have to hear whisperings of other players or play in these few clans that are familiar with the concept to know that everyone in fact has a true name, and that name is the one they chose at character creations.  That's the part I hate about it most.  The knowledge is spread through OOC means.  It's a concept that just about every character who's lived in a reasonably stable environment should know about, but they don't 'cause this concept sprouted organically through the game.  So make it official.

Here's an example :

Code Select Expand


A true name is a side effect of the use of psionics.   It is the name a particular
creature most associates with itself and therefore responds to most readily.  As
the true name is often the most direct method one may use to establish a strong,
psionic link, some prefer to use it sparingly.   Some families even give two
naming ceremonies for their children :  one for the name they think their child
will take as their true name and another for the one they will use in public.

Generally speaking, your true name will be the name you chose at character creation.


See?  Easy.

[Case]

Could just expand targetting on things people use nicknames to avoid? That'd make some people harden up instead of metagaming up ways around it then justifying it vehemently. Have your truenames, but have your coded targetting too

[Yseulte]

Many consider it abuse of IC information to use the knowledge that true names do exist over characters, in spite of the fact they are mentioned in the, "help contact," file, and in spite of the fact it is a mechanical feature of the reality used in the game. Why must the fact that true names exist be secret?

I have never run into anyone IC or OOC that felt or acted in a way that the knowledge that true names simply exist in the world was some how abusive. I have seen some players abuse true names only in that they somehow found out the character's true names through OOC means and then used it in a situation that would require a true name when in fact there was no IC way they could have known. These people of course were punished for their abuse.

The existence of true names is not a secret, considering there is tidbits of them throughout the documentation. Like many other things in Zalanthas, you simply have to play to find out more. I would suggest playing in some of the tribal clans as a start.

[SmashedTregil]

As mentioned earlier

During my first character, I knew of 'no' coded benefits about hiding your true name, and yet I still did it. The reason ? Because true names are universally considered something 'special', and so my character adopted it. Due to that I am of strong believe that the concept of hiding true names is 'not' due to code abuse, but very much thematically correct. For the simple reason that I did it instinctively, when I knew 'nothing' of ... anything Arm related, what 'so' evar.

[evil_erdlu]

I don't know if true names hold some coded importance.. I don't care, too.. My tuluki merchant or Allanaki gemmer will always use their true names, my rogue whiran or d-elf ranger who's forced to speak to a lirathan will always make up a keyword.

[Majikal]

I've always RPed True names as having an importance, whether it be superstition or whatever. It's obvious true names have coded uses whether it be psionic/magickal and in a world as superstitious as Zalanthas with things like sorcerers and witches running around I don't see anything odd at all about guarding your characters birth name for fear of the repercussions of one of those nasty things maybe working some weirdness with it.

Funny enough I sort of guard my true name irl too, not because of a fear of real life voodoo.. but yeah. I got around a lot and had so many people involved in my circles that more often than not I didn't remember folks. My closest friends and the tightest circle knew me by a more personal name while I went by a nickname to everyone else, when I bumped into folks I'd know how they knew me depending on what they called me. I'm weird.

[X-D]

Funny enough I sort of guard my true name irl too, not because of a fear of real life voodoo.. but yeah. I got around a lot and had so many people involved in my circles that more often than not I didn't remember folks. My closest friends and the tightest circle knew me by a more personal name while I went by a nickname to everyone else, when I bumped into folks I'd know how they knew me depending on what they called me. I'm weird.

That makes two of us weird, I've done the same for more then twenty five years.
The number of people that know my full real name can be counted on fingers.
I even managed to get it changed on my SSI card. (having a middle name that is only a letter and a period causes untold entertainment when you are dealing with the cops)

[Dalmeth]

The existence of true names is not a secret, considering there is tidbits of them throughout the documentation. Like many other things in Zalanthas, you simply have to play to find out more. I would suggest playing in some of the tribal clans as a start.

You're not offering a solution to the problem as I see it, you're delineating it clearly.

The scattered tidbits, the selective areas where it is revealed, and the very concept that I need to play more to see something that is staring everyone else in the face is sloppy documentation.  And it is information abuse.   We all do it to some degree.  We all use information gained through play to flesh out our characters.  In there cases, it is not worth calling out people as wrong to correct it.

However, using any knowledge of true names in my characters gained from playing those clans or merely guessing that true names exist because of assumptions in the code, would be information abuse if I were playing an average Allanaki citizen.  Why?  Because there is no documentation detailing that knowledge's place in the world at large.  So it seems to come just from thin air.  That is why we have rules against information abuse, because a character can't really justify having that knowledge in a believable, reasoned fashion.  So things become unbelievable and unreasonable.  It would be rather awkward for me, as an Allanaki citizen all his life, to ask his best bud what his true name is, because that knowledge has no detailed place in the broader societies of the game.

I believe this lends to the awkwardness that ibusoe mentioned at the start of this thread.

We can never have complete documentation, but this concept is prevalent enough that the fix is very, very simple.




Aaaaand that's it.  I'm done with this subject.

[Yseulte]

You're not offering a solution to the problem as I see it, you're delineating it clearly.

There is no solution necessary for there is no problem with the existence of true names. Why fix what isn't broken.

[ibusoe]

As mentioned earlier

During my first character, I knew of 'no' coded benefits about hiding your true name, and yet I still did it. The reason ? Because true names are universally considered something 'special', and so my character adopted it. Due to that I am of strong believe that the concept of hiding true names is 'not' due to code abuse, but very much thematically correct. For the simple reason that I did it instinctively, when I knew 'nothing' of ... anything Arm related, what 'so' evar.

Yeah, this is what I'm talking about.  For me, I began hiding my characters unique-identifying-string when I realized that a lot of players were doing things like cutting and pasting names into text files, or cutting and pasting descriptions into text files, or cutting and pasting entire conversations into text files. 

I had a problem with this sort of players early on, and kept getting into trouble with them.  Part of my strategy for dealing with this sort of player was to make any kind of definition of who my character "actually is" as murky as possible.  I find that I'm better off just not role-playing with people who are seriously confused by ambiguous keywords, etc. 

At any rate, it's been strongly implied that some of the inner-circle of the top gamers use "true-names" for reasons that we're discouraged from discussing.

If that's the case, I think that names, "true-names" and keywords should be separated entirely.  The distinctions seem confusing enough for some players already without using the same character-based c++ string for all of them.

[Is Friday]

For me, I began hiding my characters unique-identifying-string when I realized that a lot of players were doing things like cutting and pasting names into text files, or cutting and pasting descriptions into text files, or cutting and pasting entire conversations into text files. 

As a player who does this in nearly every play session since I had the idea some time ago--I think that you're being a bit too paranoid. I once had a similar concern and e-mailed the staff about it--only to be told "you should have more faith in your fellow players". I'm fairly paranoid for a number of reasons, but I try to exercise the faith.

I copy/paste mdescs and item lists for good reason--I need to be able to know what my character is interacting with, and I just can't be fucked enough to separate the mdesc from the worn things on the fly. If all I'm basing my roleplay with Amos the blue eyed, muscular man is his eyes--what the fuck do I do if he's wearing sunslits, has his hood up and I can't see his eyes, and/or his form is otherwise ambiguous because of darkness? If I copy/paste your mdesc into a notepad file I have open it's so that I can include those things in my emotes when I interact with people, think, feel, and otherwise color the scene better.

It really, really helps when I want to do more than "nod faintly", provides easy conversation material, and otherwise enhances what could be a mediocre interaction.

[Lizzie]

Not only what IsFriday says, but the staff -asks- people to log certain events..and many MANY players auto-log them. No cutting and pasting needed, the entire hour's session, from login to logout, every LOOK you did on every PC, NPC, and object in the game, is captured in text files.

If you're intentionally hiding your character's name because you're worried about someone capturing it on a text file, then it sounds like you have some really serious issues that don't have much to do with the game at all. Copying/pasting events, snippets of gaming experiences, mdescs, sdescs..it's all part of mudding. Really - that's a bit over the top, having any kind of concern about it.

[Dalmeth]

There is no solution necessary for there is no problem with the existence of true names. Why fix what isn't broken.

If I didn't know better, I'd say you were attempting to divert my point.   It's changed since I started, so let me state it more clearly :

Currently, the average character starting in one of the standard starting location only knows about true names because the player knows how the code works, and they assume their character knows how the code works, it being a representation of the reality of the game world.  Without any clear documentation of its place in the societies of those starting locations, it will only remain a note in the back of the mind of characters played by players who know how the code works, and it will not become the cultural element that it probably should be.

[Dar]

There is no solution necessary for there is no problem with the existence of true names. Why fix what isn't broken.

Currently, the average character starting in one of the standard starting location only knows about true names because the player knows how the code works, and they assume their character knows how the code works, it being a representation of the reality of the game world.  

And this is where you're wrong completely and utterly. As was stated, people hid their true names 'without' knowing of their role in the code. Therefore your statement is wrong. No, people do 'not' hide their true names because they know of their role in code, they do so because it is thematically correct for them to do it.

[Jingo]

There is no solution necessary for there is no problem with the existence of true names. Why fix what isn't broken.

Currently, the average character starting in one of the standard starting location only knows about true names because the player knows how the code works, and they assume their character knows how the code works, it being a representation of the reality of the game world.  

And this is where you're wrong completely and utterly. As was stated, people hid their true names 'without' knowing of their role in the code. Therefore your statement is wrong. No, people do 'not' hide their true names because they know of their role in code, they do so because it is thematically correct for them to do it.

That was before this thread.

[Yseulte]

Currently, the average character starting in one of the standard starting location only knows about true names because the player knows how the code works, and they assume their character knows how the code works, it being a representation of the reality of the game world.  Without any clear documentation of its place in the societies of those starting locations, it will only remain a note in the back of the mind of characters played by players who know how the code works, and it will not become the cultural element that it probably should be.

What is meant to be available to players in terms of documentation on true names is already available. The cultural stigmas of true names and their code purpose, if not readily meant to be known by your character, should be learned IC.

[ibusoe]

As a player who does this in nearly every play session since I had the idea some time ago--I think that you're being a bit too paranoid. I once had a similar concern and e-mailed the staff about it--only to be told "you should have more faith in your fellow players". I'm fairly paranoid for a number of reasons, but I try to exercise the faith.

I copy/paste mdescs and item lists for good reason--I need to be able to know what my character is interacting with, and I just can't be fucked enough to separate the mdesc from the worn things on the fly. If all I'm basing my roleplay with Amos the blue eyed, muscular man is his eyes--what the fuck do I do if he's wearing sunslits, has his hood up and I can't see his eyes, and/or his form is otherwise ambiguous because of darkness? If I copy/paste your mdesc into a notepad file I have open it's so that I can include those things in my emotes when I interact with people, think, feel, and otherwise color the scene better.

It really, really helps when I want to do more than "nod faintly", provides easy conversation material, and otherwise enhances what could be a mediocre interaction.

No, you have a good point there, and that's good advice.  For what it's worth, I tend to have a lot of faith in fellow players who pass through a simple screening process.  You might question the need for such a process but if you spend much time with people who don't emote, or don't separate in-game from oog knowledge, or have similar problems it's not hard to recognize the difference between mature players and players who have not yet learned maturity. 

Also, I've had trouble with players who believe that there is only one correct way to play, and take it as their appointed duty to subtly (or overtly) grief people who don't rapidly fall into line with their pet paradigm. 

Anyways, you're welcome to app a character with me sometime, there's probably a lot that I could learn from RPing with you.

[Krath]

Your PC's TrueName has a purpose ICly. There it is answered

[ibusoe]

Oh yeah, but I'd like to do a little more to support my original point.

In many books of fiction (Read the wizard of earthsea series sometime).

You know, I did read this book about eighteen years ago.  It did not compare favorably with the Teen Age Mutant Ninja Turtles or the Pirates of Darkwater, other fiction which interested me at approximately the same time.  I think that the whole concept underlying the True Name thing bothered me because it was so hoakey.  I say that without meaning to undermine your taste in literature, and I'm happy that you got a lot of enjoyment out of the book.

At what point did "true name" creep into Game Documents?  Was this something that's been in there that I've been (accidentally) ignoring for the past five years or is this something that was added with the last few rounds of code changes?

Maybe we can try to figure out why the True Name thing bothers me so much?  After all, there's a serious possibility that True Names can become more important than they are in Arm 2 and in that case the mature thing to do would be to try to accept my fellow player's (and staff?) interest or insistence on their inclusion.

[Delstro]

Funny enough I sort of guard my true name irl too, not because of a fear of real life voodoo.. but yeah. I got around a lot and had so many people involved in my circles that more often than not I didn't remember folks. My closest friends and the tightest circle knew me by a more personal name while I went by a nickname to everyone else, when I bumped into folks I'd know how they knew me depending on what they called me. I'm weird.

That makes two of us weird, I've done the same for more then twenty five years.
The number of people that know my full real name can be counted on fingers.
I even managed to get it changed on my SSI card. (having a middle name that is only a letter and a period causes untold entertainment when you are dealing with the cops)

That makes three of us. I even pronounce my first name wrong to people I don't like so that they will say my name wrong and remind me I don't like them.

[X-D]

At what point did "true name" creep into Game Documents?  Was this something that's been in there that I've been (accidentally) ignoring for the past five years or is this something that was added with the last few rounds of code changes?

Been there as long as I can remember...which means, as long as the game has been running.

Also, I was just giving Earthsea as example of literature having the truename concept.

Though I admit, I like it as a basis for magick, simple=beauty in my book.

[Cutthroat]

"True name" is a phrase that's been in several magick documents for as long as I can remember reading about them when I started playing, and has been added to help contact recently. In the documentation there are references to the true names of characters, elements, spheres, and moods.

However, how we should treat that is sort of like how we should treat help_gather, which pretty much explains the basics of defiling and preserving.
Does every average Amos know everything about defiling and preserving? No.
Does every average Amos know everything about true names? No.
Is it possible some people do, or certain cultures IG will know more about them? Sure.
Is it possible to play with that knowledge in a way that is not abusive? Definitely.

Would a new character named Amos, who has no knowledge of true names, is mundane, and has no reason to hide his name, be considered twinky if his first command in-game is 'addkeyword Malik' and he goes around introducing himself as Malik, never even mentioning Amos ever? Possibly, but is that really a concern?

Should we try to change the current standing of true names? Perhaps when we have more information about the magick and psionics system in 2.Arm,  we can decide on that. Right now, however, they fit into the world, and a vast majority of the players use them responsibly, from what I can tell.

[Dalmeth]

What is meant to be available to players in terms of documentation on true names is already available.

The current tidbit about true names is a recent addition.  The fact is that the documentation expands over time because it is not complete.  What I'm suggesting is that the mention of true names in the contact help file at least be expanded to explain what a true name is.

I think that the average character should know at least the psionic nature of true names, since it is something that they deal with daily.