Mounted Combat

[RogueGunslinger]

I'd like mounted combatants to be more powerful in combat.

I think someone who's proficient in mounted combat should be much better than someone of the same skill unmounted. I like the current skill progression to become good while fighting but I'm under the impression that you can only become as good as you are when unmounted.

Historically mounted combatants were far more effective against infantry.

[Thunkkin]

In Zalanthas, it's a guaranteed way to have every spider that ambushes you leap up and bite you directly on the neck.

[WarriorPoet]

Historically mounted combatants were far more effective against infantry.

Eh. This isn't really accurate. Cavalry is only truly effective en masse or chasing a routed opponent. History has shown time and time again that a determined defense of foot will see off an assault by mounted foes, so long as the initial charge doesn't put the fear into them and cause a panic/rout. That's why the Scottish schiltrom pretty much raped England's knights until the introduction of the warbow allowed them to weaken and harass the knots of pikemen before charging home. Even Alexander's Companion Cavalry, the most famous and effective mounted unit in history, weren't used to break a foe heads-up. Grip and hold the front with sarissa's while the cavalry went round and charged from the flank or rear.

Stout defense of spear/pike infantry > Cavalry charge

I don't like the idea of being mounted giving you a boost to melee combat. Maybe if thoroughly trained war mounts were intoduced at a HUGE price, but then I would want a 'brace pike' command to use your mount's wild charge and momentum against you.

[RogueGunslinger]

I'm talking 1 on 1 infantry vs mounted. Like Armageddons code is, 1 vs 1.

[Riev]

I'm talking 1 on 1 infantry vs mounted. Like Armageddons code is, 1 vs 1.

Perhaps, MAYBE if the combat rounds were slower for the mounted party. Maybe the tradeoff is harder hits, or more hits to the head? I don't know how that would be represented in code...

If someone is on a beetle, and you're on the ground, so long as you're the better fighter, you're going to win. It WOULD be nice to see people with the skill to charge, to also have a bonus to combat while mounted, but even so...

[FantasyWriter]

I would vote yes if:

the combat rounds were slower for the mounted party. Maybe the tradeoff is harder hits, or more hits to the head?

[tortall]

I would vote yes if:

the combat rounds were slower for the mounted party. Maybe the tradeoff is harder hits, or more hits to the head?

Also, don't let little damned hard hitting creatures jump into the sky and kick you on your head when you're on the back of an inix that's already at least twice as big as them. Talk about overpowered. :-p

[elvenchipmunk]

Well, if we're getting into little buggers jumping up and biting, we'd also better consider the fact that someone with a dagger/sword/club can still hit one of those buggers from atop the inix.

[Synthesis]

I fight mounted almost exclusively, and can seriously fuck shit up.  If you suck fighting mounted, you just suck at fighting, period.

[Riev]

I fight mounted almost exclusively, and can seriously fuck shit up.  If you suck fighting mounted, you just suck at fighting, period.

Oh yea? Well I fight mounted, with a weapon in my offhand, while carrying the corpse of a carru over my shoulders, blindfolded, drunk, and spiced up to high Drov on Tho. And a gortok almost killed me.

Mounted Combat needs a buff.

/sarcasm

[Synthesis]

I fight mounted almost exclusively, and can seriously fuck shit up.  If you suck fighting mounted, you just suck at fighting, period.

Oh yea? Well I fight mounted, with a weapon in my offhand, while carrying the corpse of a carru over my shoulders, blindfolded, drunk, and spiced up to high Drov on Tho. And a gortok almost killed me.

Mounted Combat needs a buff.

/sarcasm

Mounted combat doesn't need a buff.  Your character's skills need a buff.  I've punched gortoks to death while mounted.

[Eloran]

If that's true, then thank your offense. Your twinking ability is on a whole different level, one near that of the greats such as X-D.

I shouldn't have to twink my natural offense up so I could punch a gortok to death.

There should be coded advantages and disadvantages when fighting while mounted, as well as when fighting without a mount.

[Synthesis]

If that's true, then thank your offense. Your twinking ability is on a whole different level, one near that of the greats such as X-D.

I shouldn't have to twink my natural offense up so I could punch a gortok to death.

There should be coded advantages and disadvantages when fighting while mounted, as well as when fighting without a mount.

Defense is the far more important factor, really, and it's not about twinking.  Anyone who survives 30+ days with a combat character will be that good, or at least in the ballpark of that good.

[Eloran]

Defense doesn't let you punch a gortok while mounted. Whatever though.

[SMuz]

Historically mounted combatants were far more effective against infantry.

Historically, mounted combatants were fare more effective against infantry who weren't using spears.
And a lot of 'history' was about knights marching in plains, not massive dunes of sand or rock. Try and march an inix up at a guy on a 6-cord high dune and you'll see how ineffective that is.
And a lot of knights were effective because they were highly trained and equipped - you'll rarely ever see a peasant on a horse. I'm sure some templars could beat up some Bynners from atop a horse. Or punch a gortok to death.

Just saying. I don't really disapprove of this idea otherwise.

If you really want to play like the classic horsemen.. charge, flee, and charge again
EDIT: Lol, I just read the pending change to mounted combat. Hah, nice that it's being changed so you have to do that.

[spawnloser]

Mounted combat is too easy to twink, in my opinion.

[brytta.leofa]

Mounted combat is too easy to twink, in my opinion.

You may very well be right: I know I've been able to get halfway decent with it in what some of you folks would consider inconsequential playtime.  And yet I've almost never seen people fighting mounted, even those who are fairly experienced.

But my experience in-game is not very broad.  Are there clans (don't have to name 'em) that encourage or regularly use mounted fighting?

[SMuz]

I know some clans do. Certainly depends on who's in charge.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Why, yes, there are.

[Riev]

There are, for sure, mounted cavalry divisions in most military organizations that I can think of in game.

Problem is, as someone noted, it depends on who is in charge. If you have a group of 5 warriors, that couldn't ride straight if they were riding a half-giant, chances are fighting up there isn't their best advantage.

Then, neither is sending in some dual-rapier wielding Drizzt riding a mekillot, when you're doing a simple urban assault.

[Twilight]

I only wish straight warrior guild could get a little more decent at riding, which would in theory make them better at mounted combat.  And less annoying to play at times.

[Synthesis]

I only wish straight warrior guild could get a little more decent at riding, which would in theory make them better at mounted combat.  And less annoying to play at times.

You can ride while dual wielding/etwoing/whatever with an ordinary warrior with the use of a common item sold in the Bazaar in Allanak.  This will allow you to ride well enough that the only time you ever fail is in the MOST rugged terrain, and even then only usually while running your mount, and at this point you won't ever be thrown from your mount.

What else do you need?

[jcljules]

I've never played a serious combat character before. But I've seen some cavalry ride off to battle mounted. Am I to believe that once they arrive at said battle, they dismount, hitch their mounts, and fight hand to hand?

[spawnloser]

I've never played a serious combat character before. But I've seen some cavalry ride off to battle mounted. Am I to believe that once they arrive at said battle, they dismount, hitch their mounts, and fight hand to hand?

There is such a thing as mounted infantry.  They ride up, dismount and leap into the fray.

[Solifugid]

I only wish straight warrior guild could get a little more decent at riding, which would in theory make them better at mounted combat.  And less annoying to play at times.

The hard part about mounted combat isn't your ride skill - nearly anyone can practice enough to fight without falling off.  It's the fact that you're sitting in one place (your mount) and unable to dodge effectively. Warriors, being generally rather good at defense-related skills, can actually fight from the saddle pretty damn well.

[Armaddict]

I'm actually pretty sure the mounted-combat penalties were nerfed somewhat, from my recent experiences.  Sure, you still get thwacked once in awhile, but it's not -nearly- as bad as it used to be.

I don't think the charge nerf was particularly needed, but I also never got charge up to a high skill since I rarely have rangers with very strong combat skills, and that delay afterwards often has me paranoid aside from against the most harmless of foes.

However, as stated...I -have- noticed that fighting while mounted does -not- fuck you over nearly as much as it used to, and with just a wee little bit of practice, it's not that bad at all.

[Agent_137]

ride is easier to practice to higher levels these days with the change to ride in late 2008. that's probably why it doesn't hurt as much in mounted combat - you are better at it.

maybe that's also why they changed charge. more people had it and were using it to keep the opponent down and not just as a combat opener.

[Kryos]

From a game balance perspective, mounted combat cannot give bonuses, in my opinion.  If it were to give bonuses, some classes would end up with universal advantages with no price to pay.  I think that over time, the damage penalty and accuracy penalties should be removed as riding skill improves, but never to advantage.  That would leave a lot less of a bad taste in my mouth.

Truly, though, I think the entire mounted system needs a thorough revamping, to the point that it might just be better off as a arm2 project.

[brytta.leofa]

From a game balance perspective, mounted combat cannot give bonuses, in my opinion.  If it were to give bonuses, some classes would end up with universal advantages with no price to pay.

All skills should come with an associated risk or cost, but give a distinct advantage when well-developed.  Bash and disarm give some classes universal advantages, too.

Mounted combat should give a decisive advantage in some but not all situations.  It should probably also be difficult and expensive to train (as it mostly is now).

[RogueGunslinger]

I agree with Brytta completely in this matter.(maybe he agrees with me?)

I just want to see people fight mounted more. It would be cool and epic. Any detriments given to mounted combat should either be compensated by benefits, or the detriments should be taken away with skill progression.

[5 day lifespan]

Or certain weapons are more beneficial against mounted riders.  Read: spears and two handed warhammers.

[Sephiroto]

All skills should come with an associated risk or cost, but give a distinct advantage when well-developed.  Bash and disarm give some classes universal advantages, too.

Mounted combat should give a decisive advantage in some but not all situations.  It should probably also be difficult and expensive to train (as it mostly is now).

I agree.

[SMuz]

Yeah, I agree with brytta.

But for game balance purposes, I think that mounts should be easier to kill. Right now, there's absolutely no advantage to killing a mount. The mount should attack you while the owner is, or it shouldn't at all even when you do attack it (not easy to claw someone when there's a big guy pulling your reins).

[tortall]

Furthermore, I don't like how you can be bashed while mounted and even knocked into the next room (at least by NPC's).  Totally lame.  The charge skill could use some overhaul.

If you want to use that type of logic the skill in its present form would also be considered an 'I win' button. Charge made it impossible for anyone to get out of lag and actually flee, let alone anything else. All of you rangers out there think that this is some great injustice but where is the realisim with this skill?

That was one HUGE disadvantage to charge. I charge a creature I'd taken on before, not easily, but I didn't almost die, and right after my charge, I was wounded. Couldn't flee. Delay lag. What happens? 4 more wounds. I couldn't flee because of the DELAY. I just trampled this creature, and he's on the ground, and I couldn't run away, and thus, died. -That- is a problem with mounted combat.

Delay here is what is generally called a wait state.

Which is different than a cooldown.

A cooldown of 30 seconds wouldn't be bad (can't use the skill, can use other commands)

A delay/wait state of 30 seconds would be insane (can't use any skill, and a number of commands)

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I'm actually starting to understand the concept of cool down as opposed to delay.

I also am beginning to endorse the concept.

[Sephiroto]

A bit of a derail here, but it goes along with the current discussion of cooldowns and delay...

Delay is closely akin to "reeling", but without any possible negatives to offense or defense that one may or may not incur.  I like cooldown for skills with no prep time (like kick) and pre-skill delay for other skills with prep time (like bash/charge/backstab) over a post-skill delay where you can't do anything hard-code wise other than sit and wonder what happens next or emote the success of your bash/charge.  I am a fan of delays being during a skill, not after the success of them.  Post-skill delay also makes it way to easy for a target to run away.  It is logical that if you see a big mofo with a shield charging at you that you would run.  But with the current code, you don't see the big mofo.  He simply bashes you (or misses).  Then you stand and run before the big mofo's delay expires.

I'd rather have a delay before a bash/charge, or any other skill that takes some preparation rather than for the next 10 seconds afterward.  Post-skill delay usually gave me a mental picture of doing something nasty to someone then pausing and looking at them like time stopped.  I never liked that much.

Charge is/was like this.  It was like "Damn, I just trampled all over you!"  Wait...wait...wait...wait...  "Okay, now I can hit you again!"  "Oh wait, you stood and ran away..."  Or, if you are unlucky you can get bitten/slashed/gored 3-4 times if you were unlucky and be almost dead.

If we pre-delay skills this also gives us a change to pop off an emote during the execution rather than try to post-emote during the post-skill use delay period.  Again, this could make escape more difficult if hit by the moves, but in compensation it provides a clear warning before the skill use that would allow us to flee w/o getting hit (if you are fast enough).

[Northlander]

Because both combatants keep getting attacks in at the same pace as foot fighting, I see mounted combat as sitting atop your slowly moving mount and whacking straight down. I think an alternative way of coding it would be into a series of runs and passes, with a single attack, really hard if it hits, from each fighter at each pass. I sort of think the mud could use a separate mounted combat system.

Anyhow, if charging is pulling away and running across, neither combatant should be able to fight once the rider has pulled away. The skill to check whether the rider successfully pulls away is flee. This all makes good sense; better sense than a pre- or post delay unless charge is 'mount bash', where the pre- and post-delay make good sense. Hey, maybe we should make it drain the mount's stamina too.

[Morgenes]

Anyhow, if charging is pulling away and running across, neither combatant should be able to fight once the rider has pulled away. The skill to check whether the rider successfully pulls away is flee. This all makes good sense; better sense than a pre- or post delay unless charge is 'mount bash', where the pre- and post-delay make good sense. Hey, maybe we should make it drain the mount's stamina too.

Wow, it's like you read my mind.

[Eloran]

What about a script that illustrates the rider's attempt to pull away and come 'round for another charge? This would let combat continue without the fleeing/re-entering the room/initiating combat with charge once more.

[Majikal]

The idea of 'passes' seems more realistic in the terms of mounted combat, riding your victim down 'charge' and the continuing to run passes by in quick hit and runs. Produces a nice image of mounted vs footed fighting as well with the new change in charge

Code Select Expand


the tall muscular man arrives from the east, riding a pink inix

The tall muscular man charges at you and a pink inix tramples over you.

The tall  muscular man rounds for another pass

You miss your chance of attack!
The tall muscular man pierces you very hard on your head
You deftly parry the tall muscular mans pierces

the tall muscular man rounds for another pass

You slash the tall muscular man on his leg
The tall muscular man viciously pierces you on your neck
The tall muscular man solidly pierces you on your head
You stand up

the tall muscular man rounds for another pass

You miss your chance of attack!
You swiftly dodge the tall muscular man's pierces
You deftly block the the tall muscular man's attack



[brytta.leofa]

Random ideas, unpolished.

Helping riders:
- Let riders "disengage" all the way out of combat, with the opponent given a chance for one extra attack as the rider breaks away (no chance for this if they "flee").  Add delay to things such that they can't instantly re-charge.  Smaller stamina loss than a proper flee.

Hurting riders:
- If you attack a mount and the rider's skill is low, the mount will throw off the rider and attack you.  Gives a chance to unseat the rider (at the expense of dealing with his critter).
- If you attack a mount and the rider's skill is high, the mount will be unable to defend himself.  The rider gets a chance to parry or shield-deflect the blow.  Hurt mounts have a chance of "shying away" from a charge, and the chance of throwing the rider is increased.

[lingering]

Think about the mounts that are being ridden.  For the most part they are not horses.  Some of the mounts are many tons in size and rather slow and ponderous.  The idea of these huge lizards spinning on a dime and running over someone time and time again has always made me smile.  Personally, I think charge was overpowered from the get go but it took a long time before people started realizing it.  Over time more and more people understood the power of charge until it become such a problem that the staff took notice.

I like the change of using charge to initiate combat and then staying there in combat.  I advocate that a second skill similar to the 'pull reins' script of old be implemented as well.  The higher your mount skill the more you can get your mount to do for you while you are fighting.

I see it as charge branching into mount fighting. 

Another thing I'd like to see happen is the ability to target the mount of someone or to see one mount attack the other mount.  I'm not sure if this is currently a viable option.

[brytta.leofa]

Some of the mounts are many tons in size and rather slow and ponderous.  The idea of these huge lizards spinning on a dime and running over someone time and time again has always made me smile.

Inix are very quick.  (So are crocodiles, for that matter, though they wear out fast.)

[Northlander]

Not sure if it matters, but in code terms it is currently rare for the commonly available mounts to be noticeably quicker than a human.

[jmordetsky]

What about a script that illustrates the rider's attempt to pull away and come 'round for another charge? This would let combat continue without the fleeing/re-entering the room/initiating combat with charge once more.

Thats actually not a terrible idea, it could be simulated via disengage. Like:

> charge dwarf

You charge a dwarf and run him over.

> charge dwarf

You back up your mount. (*here, you automatically forced to disengage for N seconds*)
You stop fighting the dwarf.

A dwarf tries to kill you.
A dwarf tries to kill you.
A dwarf tries to kill you.
A dwarf tries to kill you.

You charge a dwarf and run him over. (deducts 1 room run movement of stam from your mount)