Pending Change to Charge

[Is Friday]

Charge was so much more effective and dangerous than bash (except maybe a bash coming from a half-giant), that there is no comparison whatsoever.

[Eloran]

If you're comparing bash to charge, you've obviously never been any good at either of them.

I've been good at both. I know how much damage either one can do.

The simple fix would have been to lengthen the lag delay. That's all that was needed.

So, yeah. Charge needed to be nerfed.

Change was needed, but not in this way.

[Synthesis]

It's not really a big deal, anyway.

> charge <target>

> flee n

> s

> charge <target>

> repeat

The only time this doesn't work is against a PC...i.e. a humanoid with intelligence who you reasonably couldn't pull off numerous successful charges against, anyway.

[tortall]

So..... It doesn't change anything except make it more annoying for the player and take longer? Why not just create a lag then?

[Eloran]

So..... It doesn't change anything except make it more annoying for the player and take longer? Why not just create a lag then?

1) Correct

2) I've got no clue

[Synthesis]

So..... It doesn't change anything except make it more annoying for the player and take longer? Why not just create a lag then?

No, it makes it MUCH harder for you to WTFPWN another PC with charge.

Personally, I think anyone who has ever played a d-elf should be rejoicing with this change, because charge was probably -the- most dangerous mundane ability vs. a d-elf.

[Xio]

It's not really a big deal, anyway.

> charge <target>

> flee n

> s

> charge <target>

> repeat

The only time this doesn't work is against a PC...i.e. a humanoid with intelligence who you reasonably couldn't pull off numerous successful charges against, anyway.

Npc beasts would flee in terror upon your reentry before your movement lag wears off and you can charge them. So that technique works against no one. (I haven't fled from an aggressive npc and went back for more in forever so I dunno if they've been changed to not run or whatever)

[Synthesis]

It's not really a big deal, anyway.

> charge <target>

> flee n

> s

> charge <target>

> repeat

The only time this doesn't work is against a PC...i.e. a humanoid with intelligence who you reasonably couldn't pull off numerous successful charges against, anyway.

Npc beasts would flee in terror upon your reentry before your movement lag wears off and you can charge them. So that technique works against no one. (I haven't fled from an aggressive npc and went back for more in forever so I dunno if they've been changed to not run or whatever)

So re-do whatever it was that got you into the room with the NPC beast in the first place.

[Eloran]

Desert elves don't generally have to worry about someone spam charging. If you have any agility at all and are unencumbered, you stand a fair chance of dodging.

I've never had a problem out of it in my experience with desert elves, not once.

This is going no where, so I'll just bow out.

[brytta.leofa]

All right.  I'm as convinced as I can be without knowing how combat works.


I will only point out, as a final feeble protest, that most folks don't attempt to fight mounted.

[X-D]

The problem I have with this.... -carru- can charge(bash) you and tumble you into the next room. They're smaller than an inix, unless I miss my guess.... Will -they- also get this nerf? Or rangers we be able to -bash- while riding? Or will rangers -get- the bash skill?

My question as well...will this apply to NPCs?

[Fathi]

If I'm reading the proposed change correctly, this means that you can't use charge once something has attacked you, correct?

That's the part that bothers me. There are a lot of animals in the game that run into your room and instantly attack you--are we going to be incapable of using charge against raptors and gortoks at all?

[jstorrie]

Theoretically you could disengage and charge if you were to land a 'reel' blow.

If you're reelin' you don't really need to be chargin', though.

[Synthesis]

I don't know why people are so afraid to use the 'flee' command.

[Jingo]

I just hope they find a few interesting ways to beef up mounted combat if they are gonna put this in. And I don't mean make it better.

Things like unique combat echoes would go a long way. Maybe along the same lines as certain wearable items.

[jmordetsky]

Personally, I think anyone who has ever played a d-elf should be rejoicing with this change, because charge was probably -the- most dangerous mundane ability vs. a d-elf.

I never experience charge abuse, so no comment. I do remember having rangers and liking the skill. That said - aren't long life d-elf rangers over powered enough?

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I just hope they find a few interesting ways to beef up mounted combat if they are gonna put this in. And I don't mean make it better.

Things like unique combat echoes would go a long way. Maybe along the same lines as certain wearable items.

Along this line, inputting lists of variables for messages in each section of the fighting code would be easy, and freaking awesome as far as making the combat less stagnant, and more interesting.

I don't mean circle kicks, but rather:

You hit a man on his head, wounding him.
or
Battering past his shield, you wound a man on his head.
or
Your slash would have wounded a man on his head, but [mount] carries him too high.
or
You knock the man's defending weapon aside, wounding him on the head. (oh, he missed a parry!)

These variable messages are easy to randomize and insert using nothing more than a random choice algorithm and a few checks.

[Thorg]

It'd be nice if charge was modified in what effects/damage type it did depending on what mount you are riding at the time.

Some examples could be charging with an inix could do the current charge effect. An erdlu, on the other hand would inflict a piercing hit with a bleed effect due to its spurs. A sunback could slap with its tail (like a kick) or a beetle could do a single slashing bite.

These would be effected by the mount's speed too - a beetle's bite is easy to dodge compared to the quicker erdlu's slash.

[Marc]

*Morgenes applies a white cloth bandage*

You can't flee in all situations.

Fleeing near holes/shield walls would be very dangerous.  Even with skills chance plays a role.

Charge now means your 16 ton lizard stops dead cold when it hits a tregil, like a car hitting a cement post.  Helmets should be double important now with how far most pcs should fly.  Anyone wear a seatbelt?

Decrease victim delay.  Create a chance for people to fail and fail critically more often on ludicrously big mounts (ie inix).  Make monstrous things unchargable.  Charging meks and mets should not work.

Make it more risky, make it usable only on humanoids (non HG imho) that are unmounted.  Give the victim a chance to stand and flee by decreasing their delay compared to the chargers (2 times, take note!).  Charge is suddenly a calvary charge and not a mobile earthquake/huntin device.

Edited to add:

Currently the mounted rider controls the field of battle.  After this change it will be the the player on foot that controls the field.  This seems at odds with the idea of mounted vs unmounted combat.  If one player is mounted, how is the other really going to get away? (except elves but they are excluded since their agility gives them a built in defense to flee) There is no reason to believe a player on a mount could not ride off twenty or thirty yards, turn around and charge again because the unmounted player will not have the speed to outrun the mount, even with a big head start.

If I get charge again I'll be wanting my victims to flee

[Synthesis]

*Morgenes applies a white cloth bandage*

You can't flee in all situations.

Fleeing near holes/shield walls would be very dangerous.  Even with skills chance plays a role.

If you're any -good- at flee, you'll flee the direction you want to 100% of the time, unless there's some environmental effect in play.

It's too bad you can't just cut a few of the legs off a beetle as it charges by you, or impale an inix through the leg as it charges you.  Then folks might think twice about using their escape pod as a battering ram.

I mean, as it stands, you basically have to mortally wound or knock out a mount in order to incapacitate it.  Man, if you could prevent a mount from moving around by placing a few well-aimed shots to the legs, talk about the epic shitstorm that would cause.

[daedroug]

Perhaps this is the time for a rear/mount kicking command.

[hyzhenhok]

*Morgenes applies a white cloth bandage*

You can't flee in all situations.

Fleeing near holes/shield walls would be very dangerous.  Even with skills chance plays a role.

Frankly, I wouldn't mind if using the charge command in difficult terrain with cliffs and sudden drops automatically placed you off the cliff in question. You shouldn't be charging in that sort of terrain in the first place.

[Niamh]

The charge skill as it was was ridiculously unrealistic.  If you're mounted and beating the crap out of someone or something with weapons, you need to be very close to them to account for reach, as well as the size of your mount.  If you've ever been to the Renaissance festival and watched jousting, that's kind of how I pictured it to be.  You need to back off and gain some momentum to be able to properly charge at somebody while you're riding a creature that large.  If you've ever ridden a horse IRL, you know that maneuvering a horse, even for a skilled rider, is difficult to do in such a small amount of space.

[Majikal]

If you've ever ridden a horse IRL, you know that maneuvering a horse, even for a skilled rider, is difficult to do in such a small amount of space.

Truth.

As a lover of rangers, I've had a badass rider with ridiculous charge skill and it left quite a few pc's/npc's pretty fucking helpless if I wanted them to be, ridiculously helpless. Couple that with the fact that I'm on a mount and they're not it's already little chance for them to escape. The idea of chasing a fleeing victim only to charge them down again makes more sense.

I would love to see charge be an opener to combat as explained yet have its potential injury be buffed somewhat, though not much more than it stands currently as it's already more painful than warrior bash.

[Krath]

The charge skill as it was was ridiculously unrealistic.  If you're mounted and beating the crap out of someone or something with weapons, you need to be very close to them to account for reach, as well as the size of your mount.  If you've ever been to the Renaissance festival and watched jousting, that's kind of how I pictured it to be.  You need to back off and gain some momentum to be able to properly charge at somebody while you're riding a creature that large.  If you've ever ridden a horse IRL, you know that maneuvering a horse, even for a skilled rider, is difficult to do in such a small amount of space.

I disagree completely. My aunt has a Horse farm, which I have grown up near. If you want a horse to trample someone you dont need to get any kind of momemtum, all you need to do is yank on the reins and I garuntee you can get that horse to knock someone down that is a few feet away from you. Maneuvering, in a small area, is not as hard as you think. But since you brought it up, if we assume, like most of us do, going from ONE room to Another is a league, that means EACH room is at least a league in length. So you, imms, dont think a LEAGUE is enough room to maneuver a mount around and charge an enemy? Why not just increase the delay?