Expanding Mercy / Critical Position

[mansa]

Hi,

I'd like to see the function of the Mercy code to be expanded, or the function of the 'Critical Position' code to be expanded, to allow for more playability in situations when:

You want to interact with someone, and not allow them to get away, yet not kill them.



Currently, you can only have these situations when:
A) Locked in an area you cannot escape (apartment, estate, jail, etc)
B) Have a partner who has Subdued someone
C) Have magickal spells that mimic this functionality
D) Have someone between 0 and -10 hit points.


I'm not sure exactly how to code this, but I have a few general ideas.

A) introduce another 'position' between health levels 0 - 10, where there is some kind of code that impedes running away OR some other code situation that helps people 'submit' OR something else.
B) introduce another 'mercy' level that stops attacking people when they reach 10 hit points or below.

C) introduce another 'position' between 0 and -10 where you can emote and talk, and have a 'critical' stage where you cannot speak between -11 and -20.

The general idea is that I want to have someone in a situation where I can roleplay out my success in fighting over them, without forcefully killing them.  I want to beat someone up, leave them in a bloody pulp, and let them live.  I want to have them checkmated, but let them live.  I want them to be able to talk back to me, and emote back at me, without them being "in a critical state" where they cannot respond.


I'm sure there are better ways to expand on this, but I just wanted to have my intention of code to be a nice addition to the game.

What other ways do you think this can be coded up?

[brytta.leofa]

Heartily agree with the principle.  I want an "incapacitated but still conscious" level.

Simplest solution:
When health is between 0 and +10, you can't fight, flee, or otherwise move.
- Mages can't cast.
- Psionicists can still use psionic skills because they're very rare and creepy.
- You can probably still manipulate your own equipment.
- Healing out of this range is very slow.  But get rid of the horrible bandage-inflicts-grievous-wounds failure, and make bandages a bit cheaper.
Change "mercy on" to stop attacking at this point, rather than at unconsciousness.

More thoughts:
- If you don't like reducing the effective hitpoint range, you can make this -10 to 0 and set unconsciousness from -20 to -10, with death at -20.
- Aggressive wildlife MUST HAVE THE FOLLOWING SCRIPT:
-- Stop outright attacking at incapacitation.
-- Start doing the following every 30 seconds:
---- emote takes a bit tasty bite out of ~victim.
---- victim->ReduceMaximumHP( 30 );

[spawnloser]

One idea that I have, following the ideas for how wounds can slow people down or stop them:

Increase movement delay for wounded persons.  Begin this at somewhere around 50% maximum hp and increase the penalties as you approach 0%.

[Krath]

One idea that I have, following the ideas for how wounds can slow people down or stop them:

Increase movement delay for wounded persons.  Begin this at somewhere around 50% maximum hp and increase the penalties as you approach 0%.

I NEVER thought I would say this.....

Krath agrees....And with the above posts.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I agree with every post above me as well.

[Lizzie]

I like the idea of a longer movement delay for severely wounded/poisoned persons, and I even like the idea of it starting at 50% below a character's current max. That would have to be the current max, not the natural max..

because sometimes you are affected by hp-boosting things. So if your natural is 100/100 and you ate your wheaties and spinach that morning, maybe your current max is 120/120. And so your 50% starting point would be 60 hps instead of 50. Maybe, an extra second (which is a LONG time if you're dealing with a 50-room run back to the outpost with a guy on an erdlu chasing you) per room delay, for every 10 hps below the half-way point.

[Ender]

I think added movement lag to represent wound penalties would be great.

Combat moves so quickly in arm that the player is given very little time to respond, and with adrenaline going it's sometimes hard to sit back and consider what would be the most realistic reaction to various events.  I know I have been guilty of spamming movement commands in a flurry when presented with a lethal situation, and a coded penalty to movement would do a lot to keep realism in place.

This would also make the already essential factor of a mount even more so as I would envision a non-injured mount could carry your injured butt just fine.

I also like mansa's suggestions as well.  Anything that facilities RP -and- enforces realism is always good.

Trust has always been a major factor in situations such as this.  A raider has to trust that his victim won't just ignore the situation presented and vice-versa.  Lack of trust just leads to lack of RP and more reliance on fast and hard code.  If there could be code in place to remove ambiguity like this, we would all be better for it.

[Morgenes]

I actually was thinking about this not long ago (and pardon me if this was your idea and I stole it, because I thought I remember it being suggested to me), but my thought is to make going to 0 and negative hps not put you unconscious, but incapacitated.  Since we have stun-points, the measure of your consciousness, when those drop to 0 you are then knocked unconscious (as you are today).  We could make it so that you are awake and able to only do emotes and basic speech while -9 to 0 hps, but your stun is draining from the pain, to the point where you likely will pass out. 

This could provide those 'last minutes' death scenes where you can talk/interact with the person who is near-dead but not unconscious.

I also like the movement delay for < 50% hp idea.

[Lizzie]

Morgenes is hawt. Hawt like butter dripping over fresh-picked lobster meat.

[spawnloser]

I actually was thinking about this not long ago (and pardon me if this was your idea and I stole it, because I thought I remember it being suggested to me), but my thought is to make going to 0 and negative hps not put you unconscious, but incapacitated.  Since we have stun-points, the measure of your consciousness, when those drop to 0 you are then knocked unconscious (as you are today).  We could make it so that you are awake and able to only do emotes and basic speech while -9 to 0 hps, but your stun is draining from the pain, to the point where you likely will pass out. 

This could provide those 'last minutes' death scenes where you can talk/interact with the person who is near-dead but not unconscious.

I also like the movement delay for < 50% hp idea.

OMG.  I think I just came.  THIS would be awesome... but it doesn't address the other concerns.  It would make those 'last minutes' fecking HAWT as hell, though.

[jstorrie]

I would like it to be easier to get people into 'mercy range.' Right now, if you are an experienced fighter, you are probably knocking away people's hit points in fourty-point chunks. If their hit points don't synch up with a nice multiple of your expected damage, you're likely to hit them from ~30 to -10, killing them whether or not you have mercy on.

I wouldn't be opposed to mercy being tied to some checkable skill, if we want to keep things brutal. But I would like to be able to more easily take someone alive when I have the upper hand; their story could go on for days.

[Lizzie]

Another possibility: that if you are in a 'coded' sparring ring (a room that is flagged as a sparring area), then the only way you can actually kill someone during sparring in that room, is if you have mercy off. If you have mercy on, then the pc you are attacking -cannot- die, as long as the participants are in that room. Muls would be the only exception and that would require the triggering of their "rage." So even a mul could, theoretically, spar with an opponent in a sparring ring and not kill his opponent UNLESS they rage.

[Synthesis]

I would like it to be easier to get people into 'mercy range.' Right now, if you are an experienced fighter, you are probably knocking away people's hit points in fourty-point chunks. If their hit points don't synch up with a nice multiple of your expected damage, you're likely to hit them from ~30 to -10, killing them whether or not you have mercy on.

I wouldn't be opposed to mercy being tied to some checkable skill, if we want to keep things brutal. But I would like to be able to more easily take someone alive when I have the upper hand; their story could go on for days.

If you are a truly skilled fighter with mercy on, your 'felling blow' will actually be nerfed, to avoid killing outright.  It's not foolproof, but it's coded, at least.

[jstorrie]

Wasn't aware of that! Is it documented?

[brytta.leofa]

...my thought is to make going to 0 and negative hps not put you unconscious, but incapacitated.  Since we have stun-points, the measure of your consciousness, when those drop to 0 you are then knocked unconscious (as you are today).

Perfect.

[Synthesis]

Wasn't aware of that! Is it documented?

> help mercy
Mercy                                                              (Combat)

   A player can set their character to be merciful by use of this command.
When a player has mercy turned on, they will try and hold back blows that
might kill their opponent and will refrain from attacking unconscious
opponents altogether.  The more skilled a character is with a weapon the
better able they are to judge what would be a killing blow, while those
inexperienced with the same weapon might accidentally kill without meaning
to.
   Typing mercy by itself will toggle it on and off.  To see the status
of your mercy either check 'stat', or type 'mercy status'.  To turn it
explicitely on or off, type 'mercy on' or 'mercy off'.
   This is extremely useful with NPC guards, soldiers and other servants.

Syntax:
   mercy [on|off|status]

See Also:
   nosave, stat, surrender, skill subdue

[5 day lifespan]

I actually was thinking about this not long ago (and pardon me if this was your idea and I stole it, because I thought I remember it being suggested to me), but my thought is to make going to 0 and negative hps not put you unconscious, but incapacitated.  Since we have stun-points, the measure of your consciousness, when those drop to 0 you are then knocked unconscious (as you are today).  We could make it so that you are awake and able to only do emotes and basic speech while -9 to 0 hps, but your stun is draining from the pain, to the point where you likely will pass out. 

This could provide those 'last minutes' death scenes where you can talk/interact with the person who is near-dead but not unconscious.

I also like the movement delay for < 50% hp idea.

:envisions scenes where Runner Honeypot has been captured by desert elves, hidden in the sands.  Runner Honeypot cries out to his comrades in pain, screaming for help as he bleeds to death, but every trooper that goes to his rescue gets cut down:

:5dls giggles:

[brytta.leofa]

Countersniper scene in "Saving Private Ryan."

[Dalmeth]

I honestly don't like the idea of taking the unconsciousness out of the mortally wounded stage.  The simple truth is that a person generally fights until they can't.  When they can't fight, they're usually not far from death.   So no, no consciousness at negative hitpoints.  Leaving someone alive enough to talk and dead enough not to act against you is tricky business.

What I would support is a pre-delay of a second or two to walking at under 30% of maximum health.   Something like, "X begins to limp y."  I would also support severe penalties against resisting subdue and getting past a guard at under 15% or 20% of health.  I might even suggest to make it impossible to get past a guard at a certain level of injury.

Admittedly, the ability to subdue and guard is an attempt to ensure you can stop them peacefully when they do start to walk off somewhere.  Currently, there is no way to interrupt them without the strong possibility of killing them.

[Synthesis]

I don't think % of total HP is a good indicator of how exactly two opponents are situated.

I've been backstabbed down to 16/109 hp before, and then whooped that motherfucker's ASS.

There are a lot of things (backstab, spells, weapon damage, damage from missile weapons) that are coded such that it's easy to get someone to poor or terrible condition, but it's usually somewhat more difficult to get them all the way to dead. 

If you start throwing around penalties to escaping once brought to poor or terrible condition, you can tremendously upset that delicate balance.

[Dalmeth]

I don't think % of total HP is a good indicator of how exactly two opponents are situated.

I've been backstabbed down to 16/109 hp before, and then whooped that motherfucker's ASS.

If HP isn't a good indicator of how injured you are, what is?

Besides, I came up with the guard idea late.  Take out the penalty against resisting subdue and you should have something agreeable, right?

[Synthesis]

I don't think % of total HP is a good indicator of how exactly two opponents are situated.

I've been backstabbed down to 16/109 hp before, and then whooped that motherfucker's ASS.

If HP isn't a good indicator of how injured you are, what is?

Besides, I came up with the guard idea late.  Take out the penalty against resisting subdue and you should have something agreeable, right?

HP is a good indicator of how injured you are, not of how much ass you can still kick.

[jmordetsky]

Hi,

I'd like to see the function of the Mercy code to be expanded, or the function of the 'Critical Position' code to be expanded, to allow for more playability in situations when:

You want to interact with someone, and not allow them to get away, yet not kill them.



Currently, you can only have these situations when:
A) Locked in an area you cannot escape (apartment, estate, jail, etc)
B) Have a partner who has Subdued someone
C) Have magickal spells that mimic this functionality
D) Have someone between 0 and -10 hit points.


I'm not sure exactly how to code this, but I have a few general ideas.

A) introduce another 'position' between health levels 0 - 10, where there is some kind of code that impedes running away OR some other code situation that helps people 'submit' OR something else.
B) introduce another 'mercy' level that stops attacking people when they reach 10 hit points or below.

C) introduce another 'position' between 0 and -10 where you can emote and talk, and have a 'critical' stage where you cannot speak between -11 and -20.

The general idea is that I want to have someone in a situation where I can roleplay out my success in fighting over them, without forcefully killing them.  I want to beat someone up, leave them in a bloody pulp, and let them live.  I want to have them checkmated, but let them live.  I want them to be able to talk back to me, and emote back at me, without them being "in a critical state" where they cannot respond.


I'm sure there are better ways to expand on this, but I just wanted to have my intention of code to be a nice addition to the game.

What other ways do you think this can be coded up?

I'd be so for that. Awesome. Stop stealing my ideas you twink.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Put it in, Morg. I like it a lot.

[jmordetsky]

Similar idea from 2006. You dirty Canadian.

http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,23915.0.html

[mansa]

I wouldn't want 50% hp, but rather something like 20% hit points.

...if we were to put a delay into moving speed.



There's also this suggestion from Krath, about when Mercy is on, it prevents massive hits to characters that instant kills them, evenmoreso than currently coded:
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,34849.0.html

Also in that thread is the idea that:

if mercy is on, "critical attacks" during combat do not resolve.   i.e. if you pick up something from the ground, and your opponent has mercy on, it will not have the extra attack.

[X-D]

Morgs idea on 0 to -9 I like.

The movement one I don't like so much. Mostly because of coding and balance issues. Which I think would be very high.  

First you would have to balance it by race. Some races my slow more then other races when heavily wounded based on toughness...but many of the tougher races are slow already.

Then you have to take that and apply to all the npc races. Which I believe arm has more then a hundred of.

And in the end, what would it really do? Mostly you would be assured death when heavily over matched...and when you consider what the odds are of running into a npc that can do massive damage before you can even type flee and the odds of running into it on accident...also silly high because you cannot look diagonal. I see much more harm to playability, specialy for newbies then possible benefit. And its even worse right now because of the way ride works now and how many things suck stam from your PC.


Now, what I think would go really well with Morgs idea would be something...Let us call it "corner" skill/command.

It would be that if you are fighting somebody with mercy on you can turn "corner" on, if they drop below say 20%HP, and you are over say 50%HP, you will try and stop them from fleeing...you backed them between two rocks or some walls, whatever. If they try to flee they get the corner message. This lets them know that you intend interaction so they can disengage, if they do you automaticaly disengage as well.
Of course they can try and flee again or later if they wish but this starts combat again. Some classes/races would be better at this then others of course, but all would have the ability.

[SMuz]

While we're talking on mercy, can we get rid of that part of the mercy code where the guy is unconscious, there's a pause, and the attacker (with mercy on) kills the guy because he failed the mercy check? I don't think it's really possible IRL to accidentally hit someone again when they're unconscious.

Movement speed seems to be an OK thing, IMHO. I don't think it has to be too severe, just enough to make it possible to catch up with the guy. But I like X-D's corner idea more.

[a strange shadow]

>disengage

[5 day lifespan]

This would certainly make assassins bad ass...

An underpowered and little used class, IIRC   

However, it will give me the time to stab, gloat over you while monologing, then finish you off.  Now i just need a cape...

[Is Friday]

The fewer monologues that are spoken, the better Arm is.

[mansa]

>disengage

With disengage, which is an excellent addition to the code, people _can_ still run away.
I want to create a situation where they cannot, but can also have the ability to roleplay along with me.

[brytta.leofa]

With disengage, which is an excellent addition to the code, people _can_ still run away.
I want to create a situation where they cannot, but can also have the ability to roleplay along with me.

We really still do need "threaten," a sort of inverse of "guard."

[jmordetsky]

With disengage, which is an excellent addition to the code, people _can_ still run away.
I want to create a situation where they cannot, but can also have the ability to roleplay along with me.

We really still do need "threaten," a sort of inverse of "guard."

So very badly.