Changes to Half-Elf Stats

[Synthesis]

http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,35508.msg453308.html#msg453308

You've got to love how this is worded so vaguely that you can't possibly comment on it unless you're currently playing a half-elf and thus able to observe the change directly in your own stat descriptors.

Were half-elves too strong? Not strong enough? Too fast? Too slow? Too wise? Too dumb? Too much endurance? Not enough?

[Dalmeth]

While not as tactful as the ever so polite Synthesis, I, too, would like to know the nature of these changes and why, after all this time, they were put into place.

[Synthesis]

I'm just wondering why the wording was chosen to be so vague.

When c-elf wisdom was nerfed, they told us they were lowering it.

When defense was nerfed, they told us they were lowering it.

Are they trying to avoid negative reactions by not revealing the specific nature of the changes, or was Morgenes simply being unintentionally obtuse?

[spawnloser]

There are enough half-elves in game for me to safely say that I'm playing one without fear of you all figuring out which one I'm playing.  The change was NOT drastic, which is why I think they aren't saying exactly, unlike the city elf wisdom change (and honestly, city elf wisdom was BROKEN before the change).  There was increase and decrease, so it's not like they are suddenly the suck or the uber.

However, I would have prefered that the modified stats be applied to current half-elves so that their descriptors stayed the same... like if they went from 3d4+4 for a stat to 3d4+5 for the ones in game to get that additional +1... and for the stat(s) that dropped, for them to lose that additional +1 (if indeed they were +1's).

[brytta.leofa]

Are desert-half-elves affected?

[Nyr]

Half-elf stats were changed to bring them more in line with where they should be--between elves and humans.  Yes, this is vague, and intentionally so.

As posted in the announcement, if you have questions, you can e-mail mud at armageddon.org.

[Cerelum]

Are desert-half-elves affected?

Is there even such a thing?

[Synthesis]

So now we get nerfs without any reasonable explanation.

Thanks, guys.

Next thing you know, we'll be getting nerfs without any announcement at all.

[Synthesis]

The thing that really irritates me is that people who are currently playing half-elves will all know exactly what the change was, while everyone else is in the dark.

You might as well be up front about it and tell us all.

[mansa]

It was probably an agility bump, a wisdom bump and an endurance loss.

That's my guess.

[Gunnerblaster]

It was probably an agility bump, a wisdom bump and an endurance loss.

That's my guess.

Enough half-elves IG to not give away character-specific information but the exact opposite happened to me, save for the wisdom.

Agility went down, Endurance shot up.

Edited to add:

And this change was very random and out of the blue. There was no discussion on the GDB and this struck without warning. I'm very appreciative of everything the staff does for us but... This just bites.

[Synthesis]

It was probably an agility bump, a wisdom bump and an endurance loss.

That's my guess.

Enough half-elves IG to not give away character-specific information but the exact opposite happened to me, save for the wisdom.

Agility went down, Endurance shot up.

Edited to add:

And this change was very random and out of the blue. There was no discussion on the GDB and this struck without warning. I'm very appreciative of everything the staff does for us but... This just bites.

Gunnerblaster, if your APPARENT agility went down, that means that globally, half-elves got a boost.

If your APPARENT endurance went up, that means globally, half-elves got a nerf.

[Salt Merchant]

This just bites.

My understanding of the post is that existing half-elves remain exactly the same in absolute terms. They haven't lost or gained anything. It's just the quality descriptors that might appear different, because the attribute ranges have been altered for -new- half elves.

So there's no reason for the players of existing half-elves to be upset.

[Eloran]

Synth has the gist of it I think.

[Sunburned]

I wonder, of all the balance issues in the game, why this one deserved their attention.  A race that -rarely- achieves any acclaim, that many have little interest in playing, who's stigma is entirely RP dependent... and they decide to go and change their stats.  Wierd.

[Thunkkin]

I'm guessing (key word: guessing) that the assess -v thread about half-elves may have got some staff thinking, "hmm, if the coded half-elf represents the true halfway point between the two races, as opposed to coded-human half-elves and coded-elf half-elves whose heritage is not readily able to be discerned, do the coded half-elf stats reflect this?  Hey, they don't.  Let's bump everything toward the middle of the two races."  Which seems reasonable to me, since it now reflects the staff stance on what half-elfs are.

[Rhyden]

We have tweaked the starting stats for half-elves to better bring them into line between humans and elves.  In some cases this may mean you might see a different wording in your attributes if you are currently playing a half-elf.  We will not be rerolling existing half-elves for this change, you will be grandfathered in at the old stats.

Nothing was said about a nerf. As the player of a half-elf currently, I can say little to nothing has changed other than the wording of half-elven attributes, not necessarily the attributes themselves. For clarification, what used to be 'average' half-elf endurance is now considered 'good' half-elf endurance. It's still the same roll, though.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

So now we get nerfs without any reasonable explanation.

Thanks, guys.

Next thing you know, we'll be getting nerfs without any announcement at all.

Not everything has to fit into your perception of good to be good.

Let it play itself out.

[spawnloser]

As I said, the change was not drastic.  There was NO nerfing.  I repeat, there was NO nerfing.

[Synthesis]

There was no nerfing for CURRENT PCs.

Future PCs will most certainly be affected.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

You have no clue whether it is a nerf or a boost. What's with you today? Every single post you have made has been off-kilter.

Chill out.

[Simple]

Maybe they felt that people could pick elf or human for half elves that were more one than the other, and they gave half elf some boosts to encourage people to play them.

[Synthesis]

You have no clue whether it is a nerf or a boost. What's with you today? Every single post you have made has been off-kilter.

Chill out.

I think gunnerblaster's post made it fairly apparent that endurance was nerfed.

I wouldn't be surprised if strength were nerfed as well, actually.

Off-kilter? Hardly.

P.S.  I'd like to note that I never disagreed nor agreed with the change itself.  I'm only taking issue with the way it was announced:  I'd prefer substantial changes like this to be announced with a little more transparency.

[Morgenes]

*pulls out a nerf gun and fires it wildly into the crowd*

AHEM...sorry, please, have faith that we know what we are doing.  It might seem that we are doing nothing but 'moving your cheese' or blasting away with our nerf mini-guns, but really we do talk about these changes and we feel they are for the betterment of the game.

It was probably an agility bump, a wisdom bump and an endurance loss.

Give the man a prize.

I'm guessing (key word: guessing) that the assess -v thread about half-elves may have got some staff thinking, "hmm, if the coded half-elf represents the true halfway point between the two races, as opposed to coded-human half-elves and coded-elf half-elves whose heritage is not readily able to be discerned, do the coded half-elf stats reflect this?  Hey, they don't.  Let's bump everything toward the middle of the two races."  Which seems reasonable to me, since it now reflects the staff stance on what half-elfs are.

Basically, that thread got me thinking why someone would play a half-elf and want to look like a human or elf, which made me look at the stat ranges for half-elves, where I realized they weren't between the two.

I wonder, of all the balance issues in the game, why this one deserved their attention.  A race that -rarely- achieves any acclaim, that many have little interest in playing, who's stigma is entirely RP dependent... and they decide to go and change their stats.  Wierd.

We're volunteers, we do what we want when we want.  It's a very easy thing to change and it can be done mid-stream.

My understanding of the post is that existing half-elves remain exactly the same in absolute terms. They haven't lost or gained anything. It's just the quality descriptors that might appear different, because the attribute ranges have been altered for -new- half elves.

So there's no reason for the players of existing half-elves to be upset.

Existing half-elves have the EXACT SAME rolls they had before.  They are being grandfathered in, the new generation of half-elves will be subject to the new dice rolls.  They will only have the appearance of a change from the new racial average.

FWIW, I've altered half-elf wisdom again as it still wasn't mid-line even after my last change.  It now is more of a median.

[Sunburned]

Thanks, Morgenes.

[Simple]

Contrary to what some of you believe, I think the producers love the game too, and have the game's best interests at heart.

[Eloran]

We're volunteers, we do what we want when we want. 

This statement doesn't sit well with me. I feel that I am a volunteer/contributor as well. I may not code or build for the game, but I have submitted many things and written pieces for the world.

I think it'd make the community feel good about things if you asked for our opinion on matters before deciding. It might also foster better discourse.

[spawnloser]

I still think the current shouldn't get grandfathered in.  We're all still playing half-elves.  Oh well.

[Morgenes]

We're volunteers, we do what we want when we want.  

This statement doesn't sit well with me. I feel that I am a volunteer/contributor as well. I may not code or build for the game, but I have submitted many things and written pieces for the world.

I think it'd make the community feel good about things if you asked for our opinion on matters before deciding. It might also foster better discourse.

You are a volunteer, you do contribute, do I tell you what to play or when?  Do I tell you you must submit a new object because that's what I really want?   I didn't mean that to say that you guys don't matter or your opinions don't matter.  I said that to explain why we chose to do things that not everyone may think is urgent, but we do feel it's worth doing at the time.

There are many things we ask you guys about because your input is important.  There are some things, such as the specifics behind what the numbers were and are that we can't really discuss.  If I had come to you and said that half-elf endurance is currently higher in range than both human and elf, would your input have been anything other than 'oh, that seems wrong, it should be changed'.  Beyond that the tweaks are so small that really it's about inverting numbers in an algorithm that really just slightly change the range of things.  It isn't something you guys really could have contributed to, hence why I didn't post asking for discourse.

I know you guys are stinging because you feel like multiple changes have gone in recently without consulting you guys.  We do care what you think and we do listen.  However, we are the staff of the game, and ultimately we have to make the decisions, and there are some things that we feel strongly enough about that we feel we must do it for the betterment of the game.  We hope you will come to see that our vision is true, and we aren't afraid to admit that sometimes we make mistakes and changes should be reverted.

As for the grandfathering in of existing half-elves, if I had altered existing half-elves I would have gotten blasted from people when their actual values changed.  If you feel you have been slighted by this change, you can email me and I will personally handle rerolling your character with the new values.  I will NOT guarantee that you will get your old 'apparent stat' back.

[mansa]

*pulls out a nerf gun and fires it wildly into the crowd*

AHEM...sorry, please, have faith that we know what we are doing.  It might seem that we are doing nothing but 'moving your cheese' or blasting away with our nerf mini-guns, but really we do talk about these changes and we feel they are for the betterment of the game.

It was probably an agility bump, a wisdom bump and an endurance loss.

Give the man a prize.

FWIW, I've altered half-elf wisdom again as it still wasn't mid-line even after my last change.  It now is more of a median.

Wow, I was totally making it up.


Maybe we could have a 1 karma class called Desert Half-Elves that have a better endurance than city half-elves.

[SMuz]

Maybe we could have a 1 karma class called Desert Half-Elves that have a better endurance than city half-elves.

I'd rather it be half a karma. And they should have penalties in the city. Like, claustrophobia and mistrust of all city people. Ohhh.. but they make really good rangers. Perfect for lone ranger concepts who live in some cave and survive on tubers.

[Bogre]

i think a wis/strength bump make helves more sensible and probably more enticing to play, even if balanced by an endurance drop.

[Sunburned]

Half-elves require no strength boost.