Knock 'em out.

[Anonymous]

I thought I saw something about this a while back but I can't remember for sure so I'll just ask.
Any advice on how to train sap?
Also, would it be poor RP to attempt to sap animals?
I'm thinking it would be alright to try since it's a blow to the head attempting to knock the target out and animals can be knocked out as well right?
Let me know what you all think please...I've never used sap before and would like to do it correctly.

[gfair]

Training Sap is tough, you might have to look to gain knowledge of Sap without actually using the command.

You can use it on animals, sure, but animals are completely different than sentient creatures.  Some have poor instincts and you can sap them with ease.  Others are sharp.  But they are by and large physically different.  What causes the effect of sap, is it the force of the blow on the skull that shakes the brain enough to make it shut down briefly?  Or is it a complete halt of all bloodflow for a brief second?  Where is the Sap point on an animal, versus a humanoid?  Where is the sap point on an exoskeletal creature like a Scrab or Ant, versus the point on vertibrate animals?

Perhaps you don't know that much about Sap to start, perhaps you first have to observe the indirect effect of a hard blow on a creature, for example the effect of a hard club to the head, versus to the neck, body, shoulder, etc.

You also need to get in Sap time on these things, which means you either need to head out hunting and make sure everyone doesn't just enter the room with the creature and type Kill first thing, you have to see if you can get your own time in for practicing a specialized skill, and that might mean telling everyone, or it might mean confiding in one or two people you can trust.

But Sapping creatures is distinctly different to sapping people. Always bear that in mind, though you can still draw some similarities.  It's a highly precise skill that takes great observation, and your character will have to do that to get good at it.

[Anonymous]

Thanks, Gfair.
Something else that I've been thinking about since I posted this...
Any ideas if being better with Bludgeoning weapons helps?
Also, I don't see why you have to wield a bludgeoning weapon to do it...
realisticly, wouldn't you be able to do it with the pommel,hilt, or flat of the blade on a sword?
The backside of a single-bladed axe?
The side of a double-bladed axe?
Swing a spear like a club?
The pommel of a dagger?
I was just thinking it would be more realistic if you could do it wielding other types of weapons and maybe have a different echo depending on the type of weapon used.
The sneaky, bastard of a man strikes the glossy-eyed, halfbreed in the back of the head with the pommel of a curved, bone sword.
You know something like that.

[5 day lifespan]

I used to make that argumentall the time to my DM.  "Why cant I just hit the skeleton with the flat of my blade and do full damage, that's blunt?"
 The truth is, you might be able to, but its horribly unweildy and not as effective as doing it with a club, so its better just to use those bludgeoning weapons.
 If Sap is like Backstab code-wise, which is a pretty reasonable assumption, based on what Ive seen, it will not go off of your club skill.  I proposed a change for this a few weeks ago, which would have backstab go off of your piercing skill, with the damage for the backstab go off of the backstab skill.  Sap would be treated the same way.  I was quite flattered by the response, which said that people want the system to stay as it is, which means that people fear me, F34r the assassin's l337 k!ll!|\| $k!ll$, and would rather not make them more powerful.  Well just have to cope for now, but oh boy, when I get that week long character and my first Karma, you can bet Ill be throwing my clout ALL OVER this place.  Yeah baby, 1 Karma Clout.  ::drools, dreaming of the day::

But until then, Im still stuck with a
5 Day Lifespan

[Anonymous]

Alright I can see that with the flat of the blade maybe...but with the pommel of a sword or dagger it's more like hitting them with a hammer, basically an overhand chop with the butt of the weapon.
That doesn't seem overly difficult or anything to me...
Even someone who wasn't all that good with a sword should be able to do that...I mean, part of sap is you're sneaking up behind them

[spawnloser]

Have you ever picked up a 5 pound sword and tried it?  I guarantee, it's more unwieldly than you might think.

[Angela Christine]

There are plenty of things characters "should" be able to do that they can't.  I think any hungry chracter should be able to pull a little meat off a corpse whether they have the skinning skill or not, it is going to be messy but anyone who has ever seen raw meat can tell muscles (meat) from non-edible bones, ligiments and fur, even the city slickers.  In fact, almost any skill you have to attempt often should eventually pop up on your skill list.  If you are constantly falling down holes and having to climb out, eventually you will learn enough about climbing out of holes to be able to do it in less than 20 attempts.  If you bicker over the price of every little thing, eventually you should be able to knock more than 1 or 2 sids off the price.  If you are an expert with blunt weapons, you should be able to figure out how to sap.  If you are an expert with piercing weapons, eventually you should figure out how to backstab.  Anyone, or at least any human, should be able to develop all the skills of a psionicist if they become experts at the psionic skills everyone starts with.

There are limits to what a character can do, and those limits are implicitly artificial.  But limits are part of play balance.  Needing a specific kind of weapon to preform a special manuver like a sap or backstab is part of those limits.

AC

[creeper386]

Well just have to cope for now, but oh boy, when I get that week long character and my first Karma, you can bet Ill be throwing my clout ALL OVER this place. Yeah baby, 1 Karma Clout. ::drools, dreaming of the day::

Mwahahaha haha ha... I have clout... But more then the normal 1 Karma and one slightly long lived character... Why? Because I'm ME!

The problem is, really it's quite difficult to brain someone with the pommel of your sword or dagger. Most Zalanthan swords tend to be either all bone/wood or obisiden and bone/wood. Which would leave an odd balance in trying to hit someone with the light side. Even an all obsidian dagger if you had gloves to be able to hold onto the blade and not remove fingers would still be rather difficult. Sometimes you do hear of people getting clouted with the pommel of a longknife or the flat of a sword, but it's certainly far from common.

And a five pound sword even by Earth standards with metal swords is getting hefty. Although I'm guessing an obsidian sword would probably be up there with a heavier weight.

Creeper

Creeper rules.

[Gorobei]

Creeper, to hit someone with the pommel of a dagger, you don't hold the blade.  You hold the handle, then whack them with the part of the handle that's sticking out of the bottom of your fist.

In conclusion, sap with daggers = good in my book.  Swords might not work, with the blade sticking way out while you try to smack your victim around.

[Anonymous]

Exactly Gorobei, I have a few different swords and a couple of "real" daggers...meaning that alot of peoples impression of a true dagger is much smaller that what it actually is.
The pommel of one in particular that I have is like the head of a hammer, it's not all that heavy, but I could easily cause a damned good skull fracture in the back of someone's head, knocking out or possibly killing them.
This is a pretty interesting one, I'd like to hear more on it.

[creeper386]

Okay, you could beat them with the pommel just fine, but it does work much better to belt them with the whole hilt.

You can also knock people out with bottles, sticks, fists, feet... I bet I could knock someone out with a heavy boot. Maybe boots should be made two be seperate, and then wieldable. So I can sap people with boots. Yeah yeah. Sounds good, but a good stout piece of solid material treated to be used as a weapon would most likely work much much better. Be alot easier then using the pommel of another weapon, or the flat of any blade.

But then, there is alot of things that make sense, or don't make sense, but thats kind of how it is. Like clubs doing just as much damage as other weapons as well as stun damage. A sword strike to the head I would think would do some other sorts of damage then to just flesh and bone, it'd jar the brain and everything, but bludgeoning weapons well always be better.

Yes, take sap away from bludgeoning weapons would be on the right road to fixing the unbalance but over all doesn't make grand amount of sense, most other things just don't work as well, and if you'll going to be a professional sapper you should have at least decent tools for the job, certainly not below the line tools. Seems to me like someone wants to run around with one dagger and be able to sap and backstab people. Then they only have one weapon and don't have to be caught with their sapper out and not being able to use it in combat or something. If your that CRAZY use change hands and wield a club and dagger. THE end.

Creeper

[gfair]

The truth is, it's unrealistic to use a handle of something as a blunt object.  Look at the difference between a club or hammer in the game, versus the hilt of a sword.  With a blunt weapon, you get full leverage out of it.  With a sword, how do you use that?  Do you grab the actual blade for leverage, or grab the guard, or try to hit with the pommel?

It isn't realistic.  Yeah, all sorts of modern day fiction has amazing scenes where the good guy pistol-whips the bad guy on the base of the neck and the guy goes out, but that isn't very realistic, nor is a sword handle.  A club is designed to do damage both physically, and the resulting mental trauma from a blow to the head.  It has stunning force in mind with its design.

[Anonymous]

I'll have to disagree with you there Gfair, you get the leverage for the blow with your arm as I said using the pommel of the weapon like a hammer.
If you don't think it can be done...let me get my dagger and try it out on you, j/k, seriously though...I -know- I can do it.
Have you ever been hit in the head with a rock?
I'm talking like a fist sized stone?
Well I have, on accident mind you, without the full force of someone's arm behind it...and I dropped instantly.

[creeper386]

See, some people say they can be nocked out pretty easiely. Myself, I've been beat on the head in just about every way possible... The closest thing I've come to being knocked out is blacking out for a split second. Wasn't even long enough to loose my balance, just long enough that I knew something was up.

People I've known gotten hit with a full swing of a base ball bat to the side of the head(Was by accident, the person stepped into range of a batter swinging) and wasn't knocked out. I don't know. Most the time I don't think it's always that easy. Sure some spots are pretty weak... And a good blow could knock you out, but most those spots... A slightly harder blow well kill you. Temple, base of the neck, along with just about any other spot on the head if you get hit hard enough.

As I said, this just smells like someone, wanting to be able to fight with both their sapper and backstabber... It doesn't hurt much to have a bloody club they are cheap, and I haven't seen a place that doesn't have one, or some other sort of blunt weapon. And if your a seriously into it, theres things for it as well. Yes, you may not be able to fight with that weapon, or backstab with that weapon, oh well.

Creeper

[Anonymous]

Just for the record the char DOESN'T have backstab so that's not the case Creeper.
I just think realistically, it shouldn't be restricted to bludgeoning weapons, that it is possible to do it with other types of weapons and I was thinking that it should be that way in game as well.
Also it would make for some variances on the echo from sap and spice it up a bit.
Yes, I know someone is going to say you can emote it of course, but it was just something that I feel would make use of the skill more realistic.
And for playability, you would have to mess with switching around weapons..it's not a hindrance, but it's annoying.

[creeper386]

Lets see... More often then not, when I'm doing something I use the things that work the best, not something that I have to go through extra trouble to. Although normally I have keys or a knife or spoon or something around that I could use when unscrewing something, but I tend to at least try to look for a screw driver first, and if ones about within easy grasp I use it. Heck, I'd use a drill to do most of it almost all the time just because it'd work better.

Bludgeoning weapons all are about. It's MUCH easier to brain someone with a club, then it is with the hilt of a dagger. They are in quite abundance just about every where as far as I know.

As for,

sheath <weapon>
wield <bludger>

Thats an annoyance? Wow... Thats pretty difficult to do, yes. Maybe you should just be able to two handed club someone to sap. That way you don't have to wield a weapon anyways. It'd be much easier so you don't have to go through that trouble.

Creeper who says if you want to fight with the weapon and still sap with it, train with clubs.

[X-D]

Ugh, I've been agreeing with creeper and gfair far to much of late.

Sure, you can (IRL) knock someone out with the counter balance (pommel) of a dagger/sword whatever, but since the were not designed to do such things if you manage to do so without breaking the persons skull it is just a happy accident, Same for the flats of blades, funny thing about that is, IRL (not movies) You would NEVER hit somebody hard enough to knock them out with the flat of the blade since the odds of the sword breaking are huge...and that is metal, Zalanthan materials...chuckle, say 95% chance it breaks.


Now, I have this nice leather wrapped sap (blackjack) it is weighted with lead and the core is spring steel, It is designed to knock someone out by causing two types of shock to the brain -without- cracking the skull or ripping the scalp away, One is hydrostatic shock, basicly a fast shockwave through the head, the other is a slower type that causes the brain to basicly bounce around inside the skull. It really does not matter where you hit the person, contrary to popular belief, But -how- you hit them.

I've used my sap exactly seven times in the last 10 years,  4 people out cold, 1 down and stunned and 2 kept swinging.

None of them did I manage to hit in the temple....matter of fact, two of the ones that  were knocked out got thwapped in the forehead.

In the case of sapping someone, this is something most people have just seen to many movies on, You have to hit someone -hard- to knock them out it takes, as I said a particular type of damage/shock to the brain.

The pistol handle or dagger pommel to the temple, that is movie fantesy, Odds are you'd just piss em off, after several swings they might be down, but they also will have bleeding wounds and a cracked skull,  it is called dying.

On a final note, Every person I hit I was taking the VERY large chance that I might kill them, and I was using something designed for the job and I know what I'm doing.

[Anonymous]

I agree about hitting someone in the temple 100% not being the best way to knock them out.
From my own experience, myself and others seem to actually lose consciousnes from blows to the back of the head, forehead and chin.
I've been plowed in the temple with a staff while practicing with some friends and it made me a bit dizzy, gave me a bump, but other than that I stayed on my feet.
And yes I know you can kill someone with a blow to the temple, but it's got to be a much more accurate strike.
Actually with metal swords that's not the only reason you wouldn't do it, most metals are more flexible than stone or bone and the flex alone would weaken the strike with the flat of the blade.
With stone however, I don't think you'd be risking breaking it much more than with normal use, as your most likely to cause a break in the stone at a thin edge than in the thickest part of it.
Also, not restricting it to blunted weapons alone and adding different echoes for the ability would actually broaden the fighting styles in the game a bit...say one person fights with maces and has sap and another uses swords or daggers...also noone has mentioned single bladed axes...
A single bladed axe, at least a lot of the ones I've seen, the other side of the head is similar to a hammer and IMHO wouldn't be any different than cracking them in the back of the head with a hammer.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

The pistol handle...to the temple, that is movie fantesy

Uhm...I have to disagree with that one, X-D, and this is experience talking. I do agree that it is not a sure-fire way to knock someone out, but the tactic most certianly has more clout that you give it credit for, although, it is likely that it also depends on which pistol is used. A .38 snubnose or a baby Glock9 would likely not do the job, but a .357 magnum most certianly will, and it is likely that a .45 would as well, revolver or semi-auto.

[X-D]

Yes 7DV, I was not stating it was inpossible, I'm sure if I clubbed somebody with my auto-mag I could knock them out, Be more likly to kill them though. The odds are pretty even between KO, dead or me getting punched in the face. I said movie Fantasy because in the movies somebody clubbing with a pistal has what 100% success rate?

[Armaddict]

It's perfectly logical for a pommel to be used, but I think it's more an issue of balance.  Letting an assassin sap with his daggers is just...mean.

So while logical, I dunno whether it will actually be implemented.  I wouldn't really care either way.

[creeper386]

I'm thinking if you going to club someone with a pistol, best luck is to have an old revolver with a heavy wooden grip, and go for the base of the skull, or right between the eyes. I don't know if it's backed up by science, but getting hit with wood tends to have more effect then metal... Get hit with long metal poles with staff fighting with someone, and compared to a wooden staff it's not even close to the same. Think the pole ways about the same if not more then the wood even.

Creeper

[Angela Christine]

Who are you people?  Hitting people with sticks, pistols and blackjacks?  Poor thick-skulled creeper who apparenly has people constantly hitting him about the head and shoulders (which, you know, you would kinda expect).    The worst thing I ever did was hit a girl in the throat, and that was just to get her to stop screaming (it worked too).  Sheesh, do you all take vactions in beruit or something?

AC

[Lazloth]

Explains a lot, actually.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

No, AC, I used to gangbang before I came to my senses. In that time, I came to learn a lot. Research after the dark years explained anything else I might happen to know.