1000th time... Haggle for a Gem

[Gaare]

I hope some of you 'naki templars are killing gemmed magickers just for fun. Seriously.. or not very seriously..  Even shopkeepers get angry while haggling for a bone sword after all. Templar may get angry for some nobody haggling for a black gem. Heh.. weirdos on street is not good for public health and security hmm?

[Malken]

/?/

[Rhyden]

Hey Gaare!

Yeah I agree the 'angry' echoes NPC merchants give off aren't totally realistic when dealing with a haggling Templar. Though it can be amusing if said Templar isn't against ganking NPC merchants to pass the time.

edit: I'm not sure if that's what you were talking about but my point still stands, and is somewhat relevant.

[Comrade Canadia]

If you don't find the haggles realistic, then emote for the poor npc so that his reactions DO make sense. I think it's unlikely that class-specific haggle responses are going to be imped, but trusty emote  remains your friend.

[Moofassa]

omg its gaare. i love him. he is foriegn, i love that

[Gaare]

omg its gaare. i love him. he is foriegn, i love that

Aha! Moofassa.. He is foreign too! Or simply Canadian! (If not mistaken, He was playing rugby. Anyone plays rugby must be foreign)

By the way, about the post...

Seriously I dont think getting a dull black gem is a 'right' for a player. I am wood elementalist and I can carry a gem doesnt make sense to me. Surely, templars should decide who to give a good, classy jewelery and who to give a classy half-giant chop because of being an elementalist.

It must be 1000 x 1000th post about number of magickers. I want to play a 'naki character who really cant stand them, and stay close even in a tavern! 3 gemmers and my lonely poor boy in Gaj! Whatever.. As I said there are great posts about this subject and mine is 10000000000 x mansath post. (It is still cool to be able to use 'mansa' in every post right?)

[Rhyden]

Maybe the Gemmed should be a clan, like the Gypsies, where only a certain amount of PCs are required.

Then all the other magickers could go rough it out in the desert.

Of course, there would be many disadvantages to this idea of mine. 

[Malken]

NEED MOAR GIKERS!!!!!!!

[RogueGunslinger]

I've run into a gicker lately that really made the game come alive to me. Really enforced prejudices and kept things alive. But because of the nature of such a character I'm sure it'll be dead real soon.

In any case, I don't think there are too many. Just play regarding the vNPC crowd around you. Play realistically. Everything should be fine.

[Winterless]

Not even a week after the other 'gicker thread was locked another one pops up...

/headache

[Good Gortok]

I see that only as a clear indication of how a significant portion of the playerbase feels about the topic.

[Angela Christine]

I want to play a 'naki character who really cant stand them, and stay close even in a tavern! 3 gemmers and my lonely poor boy in Gaj!

Maybe if gemmers could get jobs they wouldn't hang out in the taverns all day. 

[Synthesis]

I want to play a 'naki character who really cant stand them, and stay close even in a tavern! 3 gemmers and my lonely poor boy in Gaj!

Maybe if gemmers could get jobs had to do honest work to become filthy rich they wouldn't hang out in the taverns all day. 

[Armaddict]

Maybe if gemmers could get jobs they wouldn't hang out in the taverns all day. 

Maybe if there weren't so many for the very limited amount of jobs for them, a higher percentage would have jobs.

Seriously, this is why I said the tradeoff for the power has always been the social challenges.

That said, I don't particularly mind them being in the bar.  It's when four of them sit at the bar and start talking about new spells and all the temple politics that I start to think, 'Hey, wouldn't this be frowned on?'

[RogueGunslinger]

Maybe people should just roleplay appropriately, and stop straying away from the documentation no matter how many goddamn magickers there are. Just play the game. Bitching about the amount of people playing a certain guild is pointless, and often counterproductive(just ask Malken).

[palomar]

I would be surprised if virtual templars don't kill off quite a few elementalists for various reasons before or when they're about to get gemmed. However, I don't see how it would be good for playability if there was a 50% risk of having your freshly created to-be-gemmed PC dying on approaching a PC/NPC templar. Most likely it would not lead to fewer magickers. Only fewer gemmed.

Sure, if you really piss the templar off... but that goes for any type of character and almost every situation.

[Lizzie]

Maybe people should just roleplay appropriately, and stop straying away from the documentation no matter how many goddamn magickers there are. Just play the game. Bitching about the amount of people playing a certain guild is pointless, and often counterproductive(just ask Malken).

Roleplaying appropriately would involve the VNPC customers clearing out, or getting nervous, and the bartender being active and telling the gemmers to stop scaring off the paying customers. Unfortunately, there isn't an IMM available 24/7 to monitor that specific bar. Complaining to a templar every time there's 3 gemmers in the bar talking about magicks would either get the complainer killed for being a pest, or poor by having to pay so many bribes. If the bartender doesn't care enough to kick the gemmers out of HIS bar, then the RP really kind of stops right there.

[Yam]

This stuff really shouldn't be hashed out on the forums. That's why all the threads get locked.

It's best to send emails to the imms and deal with it through in game means.

[SMuz]

I think the Gaj has gotten used to gemmers talking about magick stuff

It would be funny (in a cruel way) for a guy who spent a month daydreaming about a special-apped 'gicker getting killed by a templar because he didn't seem worth the gem.

[Nyr]

It must be 1000 x 1000th post about number of magickers.

As I said there are great posts about this subject and mine is 10000000000 x mansath post.

You're correct.

[brytta.leofa]

I would be surprised if virtual templars don't kill off quite a few elementalists for various reasons before or when they're about to get gemmed.

I think the templarate wants 'gickers to come find them and get gems, not to sneak around hiding their powers for fear of getting killed.

[palomar]

I would be surprised if virtual templars don't kill off quite a few elementalists for various reasons before or when they're about to get gemmed.

I think the templarate wants 'gickers to come find them and get gems, not to sneak around hiding their powers for fear of getting killed.

Yes, I agree. I'm just saying that I think it happens but not for the reason "we have too many gemmed", but rather for personal reasons on a case by case basis.

[Salt Merchant]

Maybe if the magickers started killing off all the mouthy PCs instead of being forebearing, all of you who can't stand to share the game with them could begin new characters in Tuluk.

[spawnloser]

Yay, yet another "I hate magickers" thread... and I'm pretty sure that for ANY reason, the Templars aren't just willy-nilly killing magickers/gemmers.  That sort of thing gets out and then people start realizing, "Hey... if I go there, I've a good chance of just getting insta-ganked just for NOT breaking the law?  F that!"  You'd see a lot less gemmed and a lot more rogues killing people and causing problems.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I sure wish the 'IC' attitude towards Gemmed was changed. I can't say this enough - I just don't like the way we have to balance OOC against IC. Either gives us real coded reasons to hate and fear the Gemmed, or cancel that foolishness and say that Nakkies are Nakkies and the rest of the world is the rest of the world.

But that's just my normal rant.

[Marauder Moe]

Players of gemmed ought to realize that talking about magick in public is crossing the line.  Heck, I remember times when doing such a thing was practically illegal.  Things may have changed ICly since then, but I'm sure not that much.  If your character is talking about magick in public you really do need to realize how unusual it is and how dangerous it is.  I would even say you have some imperative to emote negative vNPC reactions to it, since for other players to do it borders on power-emoting.

Players of mundanes ought to be willing to artificially (not the best word, but I can't think of a better one) maintain your fear and disdain for gemmed, even if you've survived multiple battles where fireballs got tossed around or seen dozens of sympathetic, friendly, fluffy gemmers who just want to be normal people.  Pretend that every time your character sees a friendly gemmer PC, on the way home from the tavern they run into a freak vNPC gemmer with a tentacle growing out of one eye spouting prophecies that Drov will swallow Suk-Krath and darkness will rule Zalanthas.

Players of templars ought to treat gemmed like slaves more often.  Firstly, you don't charge a slave for their collar (but I understand this might be an IC thing, I don't know).  Secondly, once they have a collar, you don't just let them run off and hope they behave productively.  There used to be a time when every templar had at least one pet gemmer, and for every mission they went on they brought them or some other random gemmer along.  Eventually it grew to the point where they started taking teams of gemmers along and then there was a backlash on the forums because players of mundane soldiers felt marginalized (and rightly so in many cases).  After that, like 80% of the templars were gemmer-haters and would use soldiers exclusively, leaving the gemmers with nothing to do except join House Oash.  (That cycle also kind of repeated itself with the CAM, but I don't want to talk about that.)  I'd kinda like to see things get back to the older, more balanced way.  Templars: take a gemmer along with you on a mission, but try to limit yourself to just one unless its something big like an HRPT.  Doesn't matter if you don't really need them, or if you don't even get a chance to use them, just try to involve them.

[Agent_137]

talking about magick publically IS illegal and those gemmers should have their fingers/toes/tongues cut off by any half decent templar without the need for a bribe and without being able to bribe their way out.


i blame the templars and the mundanes for letting the gemmers get away it it. TATTLE ON THEM.

and other than that, I suggest the templars read moe's last paragraph above.

[X-D]

I'm in agreement with Moe on all points.

[Decameron]

  Eventually it grew to the point where they started taking teams of gemmers along and then there was a backlash on the forums because players of mundane soldiers felt marginalized (and rightly so in many cases).  After that, like 80% of the templars were gemmer-haters and would use soldiers exclusively, leaving the gemmers with nothing to do except join House Oash.  (That cycle also kind of repeated itself with the CAM, but I don't want to talk about that.)  I'd kinda like to see things get back to the older, more balanced way. 

Hrm, actually ... Gemmed do have more options than being a member of House Oash or being a Templar's pet. There's plenty of Gemmed that can and do simply survive on their own, without being affiliated to one clan or the other. However, simply because '80%' of the Gemmed have 'nothing to do but join House Oash' doesn't mean that they can't be included in your stated Templar missions. Templars have the right to use the Gemmed as they wish, and while they can and sometimes do run into trouble using others employees without actually notifying the Noble employer, that's politics. I am not sure those older balanced times were particularly as balanced as we might recall, now - would things be balanced if the Gemmed were merely split between these two clans? I am not certain I understand where a balance comes into play, unless it is a balance between mundane pcs and magicker pcs within Allanak as a whole, rather than in two organizations which may or may not employ them.

[Marauder Moe]

Hrm, actually ... Gemmed do have more options than being a member of House Oash or being a Templar's pet. There's plenty of Gemmed that can and do simply survive on their own, without being affiliated to one clan or the other.

True.  My statement wasn't well-constructed, but the point is that the templarate is capable of creating a lot of activity for gemmed players, and without the willingness to do so the options and activity for gemmed PCs is reduced.

However, simply because '80%' of the Gemmed have 'nothing to do but join House Oash' doesn't mean that they can't be included in your stated Templar missions.

Yes, of course they can.  However, from what I've seen it's not always a common thing.  That's my point.  Templars should make more use of gemmed.

EDIT: but not too much use of gemmed.

I am not sure those older balanced times were particularly as balanced as we might recall, now - would things be balanced if the Gemmed were merely split between these two clans? I am not certain I understand where a balance comes into play, unless it is a balance between mundane pcs and magicker pcs within Allanak as a whole, rather than in two organizations which may or may not employ them.

By balance I meant balance between templarate missions relying on soldiers vs. relying on gemmers.  I feel that soldiers should be relied upon, and they should do the brunt of the work and be in the thick of the action.  However, I think gemmers should still be included but largely in supporting roles rather than being the stars.

[Malken]

I'm not sure why this conversation is heading toward gemmers needing to have more interesting things to do, actually, maybe there's so many of them lately because other gemmers make the role interesting and it's being noticed, and many more want to join in the fun. Half the current gemmer playerbase never hang out in the Gaj or public taverns, can you imagine if the roles were currently boring for them, you'd have twice as many in the Gaj that you currently have right now.

There's PLENTY to do as a gemmer.

It's like any other roles, really, some players in it are making interesting things happen, so people notice it, so they create gemmers of their own, so it grows..

Again, I just have no idea where the discussion is heading, some people who are not currently playing gemmers or even playing in Allanak are making wild guesses as  to the why and how things are/should be.. Some players want to tell others how it really is but can't because it's IC infos, some will say there's too many of them and some Staff will come and put numbers down and say it's just fine the way it is.

Really, again, I don't think there's much point to a thread like this, if the Staff thinks there's too many of them, they will either do something about it, or won't.. Players telling other players how to act or play never changes much, in my experience.

Edited to add: Oh, and just like I had predicted in the last thread like this one, I've noticed quite the noticeable increase in gemmers since that last thread was created. If you want less gemmers around in game, the last thing you want is to create a thread like this one.

[Morrolan]

http://dogwood.phpwebhosting.com/~tvshrine/buffy/b-pissoff.wav

But really...this is the whole dead-horse thing all over.

[Moofassa]

I don't really know why people including immortals are giving a player who has possibly returned due to the email, or for any other reason, a hard time about reviving a post.

It's elitist and makes us look like assholes. If you don't want to read it, don't.


Think of the noobs.

[Zoan]

In Vrun Driath there are no noobs. There are only victims.   

[evil_erdlu]

[RANT]
Since I joined Arm, how many threads about magickers have I read? 10? 20? 30?

I'm bored of it. Just get along. Of course I'm a newbie and I have played only two mages, but I'd like to propose something for both gemmers and mundanes.

Gemmers:

1. Mundanes hate you. Period. HATE BACK! It doesn't mean you have to set deathtraps for them. They are filth.. They're leeching off the protection the Godking grants them and living their happy, irresponsible lives. They are worse than elves (or humans, if you're an elf). You don't need to bother with them.
2. There are enough gemmers in the quarter. Hunt a scrab, find a krathi/grill to cook it, make the vivaduan <censored> and party in Vivadu's.. You don't need Gaj. It's filthy, its food and drinks are low quality and people hate you there.
3. Fear other mages. Don't stand idly when a Drovian speaks about the secrets of the quarter or a Krathi suddenly erupts in flames. MAGICK IS SCARY, even for you. Show your fear for the first, second, third, fourth and maybe the fifth times you observe something weird.
4. It's rumored Krathi can lose control of magick and explode. Drovians collect skulls. They say it's for components but how do you know? Vivaduans are much more sinister than you think they are. Rukkians are freaks living underground without light and life half their lives. Whiran magick is supposed to backlash often, like the weather itself. Elkrans? Lightning will ALWAYS follow the orders of that weakling?
5. Fear templars. They're letting you live, pay back. In most minds utter fear causes love, even lust. Show it.

Mundanes:

1. So you hate magickers. Good. But you hate mekillots too and you don't spit on them. C'mon, the gemmer sees the glasshacker on your back and there are no soldiers outside the gates. Don't risk your life to pour out your hatred.
2. Don't think if you show your hatred the gemmer will leave. He may instead decide to stay a little more while, sit _beside_ you, order a drink and touch your nerves even more. Ignore them and they'll leave, devoid of the interaction they require IC and OOC. Make them feel good even by making them think "Oh yeah I'm special. Everyone fears me." and they'll savour the feeling staying longer. There are three taverns you can frequent easily - Gaj, Red's, Silver Ginka.. Pick another tavern if necessary. (Actually, a gemmer shouldn't have a reason to spend a lot of time in Gaj anyway.. Read above my rantings about gemmers)
3. A soldier is more believeable than a magicker, eh? Befriend a soldier. Show him the situation. If he himself can't force them out, a templar will listen to the soldier's accusations.
4. Make up superstitions. Spit on your side and pat your forehead twice when you see a Rukkian frown or your house will be ruined. Do _not_ let a vivaduan smile at you or your EVERY sexual experience will result in children. DO NOT sit in between a krathi and the sun itself or you'll burn. Buy a granite cross and wear it to avoid curses, etc etc... I don't think the staff will frown upon you being creative.

For both:

DO NOT WASTE GDB SPACE WITH ANY MORE MAGICKER THREADS. USE THE REQUEST TOOL TO REPORT UNREALISTIC RP OF OTHERS.

[/RANT]

[Fathi]

Do _not_ let a vivaduan smile at you or your EVERY sexual experience will result in children.

Rolling off the tall, muscular man, sweat glistening on his forehead, you say, in sirihish:
  "... Amos, that was amazin', it was even better than it is with girls."

Gazing at you adoringly, the lanky, blonde man says to you, in sirihish:
  "Malik, I think I'm pregnant."

[Majikal]

I think the Gaj has gotten used to gemmers talking about magick stuff

THIS has annoys me! To the dungeons with these riot-starting dangerous and cursed demons!

Make vague references of something suspiciously gicky in a way those normal bastards won't understand, whisper it, way it, but don't discuss what you've roasted with your gickiness at the bar, it should be VERY common knowledge that such talk is dangerous. To the poles with'm!

[SMuz]

I like what evil_erdlu wrote

[Yokunama]

There's PLENTY to do as a gemmer.

If there isn't anything to do, 'gemmers' can always make some fun for themselves.

[BuNutzCola]

There's PLENTY to do as a gemmer.

If there isn't anything to do, 'gemmers' can always make some fun for themselves.

That's the whole thing. The entire issue I see with a lot of magickers.

They are mundane. They are -people-. They just happen to have a terrible curse or astounding blessing (depending on how they view it)

But I see most magickers become that. 'gickers. Not people. Magick is the sole focus of everything they do. In all the 'gickers I've played with over the years, only a very small selection of them seemed like real humans/elves to me, spell-slinging aside.

Have fears, desires, dreams. Not related to magick at all. Sure you're ostracized, but maybe you really really just want to be the best damn dart player the Bard's Barrel has ever known.

[Malken]

But I see most magickers become that. 'gickers. Not people. Magick is the sole focus of everything they do. In all the 'gickers I've played with over the years, only a very small selection of them seemed like real humans/elves to me, spell-slinging aside.

The way the magick system is, I blame it. Seriously, there needs to be a better way to gain new spells and improve the ones you have right now, in Arm 2.0

I feel bad for anyone that plays a magicker and only has two hours a day or so to dedicate to Arm, you can either be a magicker, or have a social life (in game).

It's a terrible system that brings the worse in the players I've seen (including me), over the years.

[Is Friday]

I don't agree. I've played magickers who did both. I think I've had one straight gemmer, the rest were hidden, even--which is in my opinion, is harder to play than a gemmer.

edit: The magick system is so boring I don't see how anyone could just straight twink, anyway. (That's pretty beyond my patience threshold.)

[RogueGunslinger]

There's only so many way you can emote, and think/feel a magickal process that we know absolutely nothing about. I agree with Malken. The first Magicker I had(when I was playing 6+ hours a day) Was so much fun. He did everything, and had lots of fun. The few magickers I've had since, now that my playtimes are sparse, just seem to be me logging in and skill-grinding for thirty minutes before I log off bored and frustrated.

[spawnloser]

The way the magick system is, I blame it. Seriously, there needs to be a better way to gain new spells and improve the ones you have right now, in Arm 2.0

I feel bad for anyone that plays a magicker and only has two hours a day or so to dedicate to Arm, you can either be a magicker, or have a social life (in game).

...because then your socializing will cut into your powergaming.

[Malken]

The way the magick system is, I blame it. Seriously, there needs to be a better way to gain new spells and improve the ones you have right now, in Arm 2.0

I feel bad for anyone that plays a magicker and only has two hours a day or so to dedicate to Arm, you can either be a magicker, or have a social life (in game).

...because then your socializing will cut into your powergaming.

[Rhyden]

Even though you're probably right, spawnloser, I can't help but seeing your response and reading it as...

The way the magick system is, I blame it. Seriously, there needs to be a better way to gain new spells and improve the ones you have right now, in Arm 2.0

I feel bad for anyone that plays a magicker and only has two hours a day or so to dedicate to Arm, you can either be a magicker, or have a social life (in game).

...bait, bait bait bait, baity bait bait. Hey, want some bait? Here's some bait.

Seriously man, your ideas are good, and you're usually right, but do you always have to bait?

[Agent_137]

let's keep this thread on track: rehashing old topics. Leave the baiting and the calling out of said baiting on the PMs.

more employment for gemmers would be helpful. it's much better to send them on suicide missions than have them silently spamming spells alone.

[Lizzie]

I hire gemmers, if they're worth hiring for the tasks I need doing. Just because someone has a gem around their neck, doesn't mean the character is someone my character would be willing to use for the task.

For instance..a vivaduan to fill a cistern that's probably about as big as 10 kegs. I would NOT hire a vivaduan who can only fill a 1/4 barrel at a time, because I'd be spending the next few RL hours standing there watching (since I'm not gonna let no stinkin filthy gemmer onto my property unsupervised).

For instance...a drovian to..erm..create a shadow-puppet play for some good pals over there. I'm not gonna hire a rinthi elf drovian for the job, no matter how good he is at shadow-puppet plays, because he's an elf, and because he's a rinthi.

For instance...a krathi to fireball my enemy, the rinthi elf drovian. Well DOH, I'm not gonna hire the rinthi breed krathi, everyone knows he'll just tip off the drovian and they'll both turn and kill me instead.

So really - it's a matter of the right fit. If you want your gemmer to find work with mundanes, then make your character "fit to be in the presence" of those mundanes. If you have a rinthi elf drovian, don't be surprised if no one outside the rinth wants anything to do with you, let alone hire you for a job.

[SMuz]

Lol, rinthi elf drovians have better things to do with their magick than finding jobs.

[spawnloser]

Rhyden, I think my point was clearly made... why can someone be content to play a tavern-sitting, non-practicing mundane but as soon as they're playing a magicker, they feel the need or compulsion to go practice their spells?  What's the difference?

[evil_erdlu]

Rhyden, I think my point was clearly made... why can someone be content to play a tavern-sitting, non-practicing mundane but as soon as they're playing a magicker, they feel the need or compulsion to go practice their spells?  What's the difference?

Of course I am not Rhyden, but I guess I can offer my own point of view.

I played my two magickers to see the magick. I wondered, "Yeah.. Rukkian.. Ruk Mage.. He can cause earthquakes? What's the deal with the creature he summoned in this log? (Original Submissions Log) I'd love to experience such a play...". If I wanted to have a tavern sitter, I'd make a merchant with a nice, suitable subguild to the area like jeweler, tailor, armorcrafter or stonecarver and I'd have a reason to be tavern-sitting. I'd be able to interact more and with more ease and I'd even be able to change the world by getting involved in merchant house politics if I wanted to.

Why would anyone play a magicker for any reason but experience the supernatural side of Zalanthas? And for that, yes; you "cast 'nil kral ruk <a> <b>'" for some time every day you play. You will of course add hobbies, quirks, phobias and similar depth to the character but the character will still cast, if it's willing to see new spells opened in its "skills magick".

[Lizzie]

Yeah that kind of confused me too. When I played my first ranger, the first thing I wanted to do, was..tavern sit?

No. It was learn how to hunt something down, and maybe see what kind of food I'd find when I typed "forage food."

When I made my first merchant, it was my first character. At that point, the help file did -not- say that merchant_guild had any crafts at all. I got it for the piloting, cause I thought it'd be a kick to have my own wagon and drive it around the world. When I wasn't using my bow and arrow and shooting wildlife for supper, with my subguild. I got sucked into Salarr and that was the end of that brilliant idea, but honestly the last thing on my mind when I rolled her up was tavern-sitting.

When I made my first burglar, my OOC goal was to acquire a lockpick within my first RL week of playing, get into a criminal organization, and get to picking locks. Tavern-sitting was only one very specific criteria of that goal...to meet someone in a criminal organization who would point me in the direction of the nearest lockpick-selling shop.

When I made my first magicker, it was because I wanted to learn about magicks, from the caster's side of things. I already knew about all kinds of magicks from the observer's point of view, from previous PCs who had IC reason to hang out with those types.

When I pick a guild and subguild, it's BECAUSE of the skills that come with those guilds and subguilds. If I didn't care about the skills, I'd just pick #1 on all options and not ever worry about what my character can, and cannot do. I wouldn't care that I've gotten a few karma points.

I pick these things because they have skills I *want* to explore and examine. If I didn't care, I'd play a mush.

[spawnloser]

But you can tavern sit AND do that too.  I have met and/or played characters that were fully-branched or close to being so that still tavern sat as much as the next guy... and this was a regular thing, not just something that developed after branching.

...unless you consider tavern-sitting to be doing nothing but sitting around the tavern.  Thing is, to do that crafting you mentioned, you probably wouldn't be sitting at the bar doing this.  Why can't you hunt and tavern sit?  Magick and tavern sit?  Same as merchant and tavern sit.

[Lizzie]

But you can tavern sit AND do that too.  I have met and/or played characters that were fully-branched or close to being so that still tavern sat as much as the next guy... and this was a regular thing, not just something that developed after branching.

...unless you consider tavern-sitting to be doing nothing but sitting around the tavern.  Thing is, to do that crafting you mentioned, you probably wouldn't be sitting at the bar doing this.  Why can't you hunt and tavern sit?  Magick and tavern sit?  Same as merchant and tavern sit.

Because with magicks, *some* of those spells, when you want to see their actual affects or benefit from them, require that you have them "on" you for awhile. And during those periods of time, it's not a wise idea to be seen in public, or by anyone else who isn't also a magicker. And sometimes, not even by any of those.

So sometimes, you're just stuck, NOT tavern sitting, waiting for something to wear off. And you really don't necessarily want, or need, to go hunting, or spam-craft your 4000th obsidian dagger. But you know that if you spam-cast spell#473, there's a chance you might actually branch the spell that you use to "undo" those spells that you get stuck with for hours on end, because you had no idea how long that last one was gonna take...because you'd never casted that particular spell before.. and then, after you had casted it before, you were careful...and didn't experiment on yourself with it..until that one day when you were at the highest level it could be at and you were just so damned curious and HAD to see what would happen...and lo and behold, it's a spell that lasts 4 RL hours at that level. So you're stuck in the temple for the next 4 RL hours and your character's buddies don't log on Sunday mornings.

GEE WHIZ should I RP masturbating again, for the benefit of the lone Sunday morning Overlord who REALLY doesn't want to have to see my pitiful masturbation emotes? OR...should I just say fuck it and spam cast for a couple of hours since I'm stuck there anyway with no one to RP with?

[Marauder Moe]

I love debating magicker issues on the GDB.  I want to comment again in this thread, I really do, but I can't figure out exactly what we're arguing right now.

Is it about whether or not you can be a successful mage and still have time to socialize?

[Lizzie]

It's more of a matter of this perception:

IF you only have a limited amount of time to play per day,

AND IF you want to actually get your magicker's skills to the point where they're useful in a functional way for the average life of the average magicker freak...

THEN you are often put in a position of having to decide between tavern sitting or casting.

AND...

Some people feel that magickers can be just like anyone else, and tavern sit.

HOWEVER

Some people feel that magickers AREN'T like anyone else, because of the nature of their skills, and tavern sitting isn't something they can "just do" any time they want, WITHOUT preparing in advance to neglect their "studies."

You have to NOT be casting for a couple of hours, prior to showing up in a tavern, with regards to certain spells and experimentation. That means if you only have a couple of hours to play, then you -cannot- both cast those specific spells AND expect to tavern sit, in the same RL day.

This makes some people sad. And this is something other people refuse to acknowledge is an actual situation that can come up. And some people make too much fuss about how it IS an actual situation, and pretend it is a constant issue that they can -never- get out of.

I, on the other hand, am the voice of reason. Yes, it can be an issue. Yes, the issue can be frustrating and make a magicker player sad. But no, it isn't a constant issue, and it -is- possible to be a caster and a tavern sitter, and progress with magicks, if you only have a couple of hours to play per day. And no, it doesn't involve NEVER using the "normal" spell, and only using the "non-effective" version of the spell. It just involves..some days doing this, some days doing that, some days doing only a little tiny bit of this, and mostly that. It takes strategy. Just like if your character is a noble, who has a rinthi lover, and you have to sneak around the rinth to see your rinthi lover without getting caught. You have to change out of those silks, dood. There's just no way around it. And that means you have to have a plan.

[Eloran]

You have to NOT be casting for a couple of hours, prior to showing up in a tavern, with regards to certain spells and experimentation. That means if you only have a couple of hours to play, then you -cannot- both cast those specific spells AND expect to tavern sit, in the same RL day.

People who use this line of thought really don't know what they're talking about, or are exaggerating to the point of lying.

It -is- possible to be a caster and a tavern sitter, and progress with magicks, if you only have a couple of hours to play per day.

Exactly.

[NoteworthyFellow]

And this is why magickers should be able to dispel their own spells from themselves.  Just make a "dispel" command that works like "vis" or "land" (for appropriate situations): when you type "dispel," any magick you cast on yourself disappears.  Magick cast by others, beneficial or not, is unaffected by the dispel command, and will require other means to rid yourself of.

[Eloran]

And this is why magickers should be able to dispel their own spells from themselves.  Just make a "dispel" command that works like "vis" or "land" (for appropriate situations): when you type "dispel," any magick you cast on yourself disappears.  Magick cast by others, beneficial or not, is unaffected by the dispel command, and will require other means to rid yourself of.

No.

No.

NO NO NO NO NO.

A thousand times no.

Magickers do not need the ability to dispel their own spells. If you don't want your buffs lasting five hours, don't spam stack them.

Problem solved.

[NoteworthyFellow]

And this is why magickers should be able to dispel their own spells from themselves.  Just make a "dispel" command that works like "vis" or "land" (for appropriate situations): when you type "dispel," any magick you cast on yourself disappears.  Magick cast by others, beneficial or not, is unaffected by the dispel command, and will require other means to rid yourself of.

No.

No.

NO NO NO NO NO.

A thousand times no.

Magickers do not need the ability to dispel their own spells. If you don't want your buffs lasting five hours, don't spam stack them.

Problem solved.

There are spells that last that long without being stacked at all.  Some are malevolent spells, and I agree that those shouldn't be able to be shrugged off.  Others are beneficial spells that may be necessary for survival for a mage in certain situations.  I've played a mage in the past who needed to cast spells like that on himself at a high power level to survive, and found himself locked outside of the gates for IC days as a result because nobody was around who could dispel them for him.

[Marauder Moe]

Ah.  I retired my last gemmer precisely because I didn't have enough time to advance magick skills as fast as I wanted and maintain an entertaining social life.

Well, also because I thought the game was ending in 8 months and wanted to spend more of that time playing in the social structures I enjoy most, figuring there'd be plenty of time to spam-cast (or perhaps not even a need to) in Arm 2.


Despite that, I have to side against a dispell command.  If you don't want a spell to linger for hours then cast it at nil.

[NoteworthyFellow]

Ah.  I retired my last gemmer precisely because I didn't have enough time to advance magick skills as fast as I wanted and maintain an entertaining social life.

Well, also because I thought the game was ending in 8 months and wanted to spend more of that time playing in the social structures I enjoy most, figuring there'd be plenty of time to spam-cast (or perhaps not even a need to) in Arm 2.


Despite that, I have to side against a dispell command.  If you don't want a spell to linger for hours then cast it at nil.

I don't necessarily mean it for practicing.  A magick protection spell cast at a high enough power level will last for OOC hours, and there are plenty of times when using a spell like that on oneself is the only way to survive a situation.  Should a gemmer then be locked out of Allanak for OOC hours because he had to use powerful magick on himself and couldn't take it off himself?  That's like not letting a warrior sheath his sword for hours after a battle without the help of a different guild while simultaneously making it illegal to have a weapon unsheathed in the city.

[spawnloser]

And most don't.  You can cast without having to have effects lingering for long and the experimentation?  Yeah, sure, you can't experiment with some things and then go tavern sit, but them's the breaks.  Just like you can't socialize with all your friends after escorting (insert person here) to (insert other city here) when playing certain roles... or you can't socialize in certain areas because you're wanted when in other roles...

All roles have certain limitations, usually because of roleplay/in-game reasons.  You have to learn those in-game limitations, the IC limitations, and learn to play with them and think about surmounting them in IC ways.  Then your playing the guild and playing the role won't conflict so much.

[Eloran]

Despite that, I have to side against a dispell command.  If you don't want a spell to linger for hours then cast it at nil.

This. Use nil, that's what it's for.

I've played a mage in the past who needed to cast spells like that on himself at a high power level to survive, and found himself locked outside of the gates for IC days as a result because nobody was around who could dispel them for him.

I gotta call bs.

In my exerience with mages, I've never had a spell cast once last for "IC days" at a time. Days? Days?

[NoteworthyFellow]

In my exerience with mages, I've never had a spell cast once last for "IC days" at a time. Days? Days?

I wish I could give you an example, I really do.  Unfortunately, I'm not allowed.

To clarify my point, I'd also be okay with shortening the duration of the spells in-question.  Usually, one has plenty of time to regenerate mana between when one casts the spell and when it could reasonably wear off.  I wouldn't mind having to cast it again because it wore off in less than an OOC hour and a half.

[Marauder Moe]

Magick isn't a sword, though.  It's much more powerful and I think it's good that its usage has consequences, particularly at higher levels.

Though, I will admit that I believe that a few of the magick guilds deserve ranger quit after branching certain spells.

[NoteworthyFellow]

Though, I will admit that I believe that a few of the magick guilds deserve ranger quit after branching certain spells.

Oh, man, that would be so nice.  Of course, I envy ranger quit with every guild I play, to the point that I rarely play mundanes that aren't rangers anymore, just because I love (and often need) the ability to quit (almost) whenever and wherever I need to.  So, my opinion here is more selfish and biased than usual, and that's saying something.

[Synthesis]

NoteworthyFellow is correct:  there is at least one spell whose effect will last 3-3.5 RL hours when cast at sul or mon.  Yes, it is a certain guild's "signature" spell, that basically must be used in order to survive any confrontation, which means every time you go out the gates, you have to cast it, putting you on the hook for 3-3.5 RL hours.  It is incredibly annoying.

However, this topic has already been debated ad nauseum, and the thread was locked.

[Salt Merchant]

However, this topic has already been debated ad nauseum, and the thread was locked.

Exactly, people have been debating all things magicker for three years now, and -nothing- has changed (save that clan options for gemmed have been reduced). These debates are clearly futile and should cease, since all they accomplish is to stir up ill-will.

[NoteworthyFellow]

However, this topic has already been debated ad nauseum, and the thread was locked.

Quite true.

For some reason, I feel like I started that thread, too.

Anyway, I'd also argue on the basis of internal consistency: there are at least three spells I know of, all of which belonging to the same element, that even mundanes can self-dispel with commands that are available to everyone.  The only way I've thought of (or had explained to me) in which one can roleplay that is that it's simply willing the effect away.  Why doesn't that work for other beneficial effects?  I can understand if magick isn't supposed to be internally consistent, but that bugged me a bit for a while.

Anyway, I'll be content to let this derail drop given the history of the topic.

These debates are clearly futile and should cease, since all they accomplish is to stir up ill-will.

You're probably right.

[RogueGunslinger]

I thought we were talking about how low playing times, plus the nature in which magick progression works, doesn't allow for socializing. Not to mention that because of magickers hated, and loathed status, it colors every one of your interactions in a certain way, further disallowing socialization. Every time A magicker walks out of their hole, they should be expecting conflict. While this isn't a bad thing, it makes it to where I'd rather sit and practice my magick skills, than to go out and get yet another dozen scornful looks, or simply be ignored.

The problem is that magickers usually only get one sort of socialization, and to get past that a lot of interacting with other players is required. Which is not possible with low playing times.

[hyzhenhok]

Aren't magickers supposed to be difficult to play anyway? That's why they're karma-restricted.

A magicker should be forced to socialize in a fundamentally different way than mundanes. Complaints that it's hard to both practice your skills and have "normal" social interactions seems to indicated to me that things are as they should be.

If you OOCly don't like the lonely, solitary reality that is the life of a Zalanthan magicker, don't play one.

[evil_erdlu]

- First of all, a lot of spells last more 40+ RL minutes at 'wek'. Think of 'mon'. There is one spell that I observed that lasts two and a half IG days, which's roughly four hours RL. And Eloran, this is a newbie's observation. There are possibly spells with much longer durations. Are you sure you have enough experience, enough to call others stupidliar?

- Second, you do not need to practice stuff at 'un' every time. 'help magick reach'. You can use 'nil' and be devoid of all the lingering effects of spells, while trying to branch them. I agree with Spawnloser above that if you want to tavern idle, just cast at 'nil' that day and be done with it. If you don't want that four-hour buff, don't have it. I agree about the 'outside the gates' situation, though. Rough call.

- Third, in my last response I meant, I played two characters. I played first one to have a very weird dwarven focus, but the second one was a pure gemmer. I played her to see the life in quarters and I had no intention to tavern-sit, even for socializing because blending into the mundanes is not something I believe to be good role-play.
Why would a whiran need to sit at Gaj for an elongated period of time? No reasons but "Because no gemmers are online and I'm bored IRL" are true to my opinion. Quarters are lively with a lot of talk scripts, it's where Tek's Tower is sold and let's face it, usually there are more gemmers online than there are mundanes. Why ruin the rough ranger's immersion by entering the tavern in groups of five gemmers while you can really party at a temple?

I agree tavern-sitting is possible, but viable? Wasn't the topic booing the gemmers that blend a bit too much into the nonmagickal community of Allanak? I'm lost, so forgive my blubbering.

Edited because I misread Eloran's post, he called people claiming magick durations are long 'lying', not 'stupid'...

[Malken]

Well, Staff said that they don't want the gemmer's quarter to have a tavern, because they want to encourage gemmers to mingle with the mundanes at the Gaj, but the players of Arm don't seem to want this to happen, and they would rather that the gemmers stick to their quarter and their own stuff, am I wrong?

[Agent_137]

i don't know if staff ever said that explicitly. In fact i think it's only implied that they don't want it because various folks have tried IG and OOC over the years.

Regardless, magickers in small doses are PART of zalanthas. it only becomes an issue when there are bunches of them together. Magickers, gemmers i mean, need to be aware of their . . . oh wait, I've said this before on another thread. Last week in fact.

[Lizzie]

Despite that, I have to side against a dispell command.  If you don't want a spell to linger for hours then cast it at nil.

This. Use nil, that's what it's for.

I've played a mage in the past who needed to cast spells like that on himself at a high power level to survive, and found himself locked outside of the gates for IC days as a result because nobody was around who could dispel them for him.

I gotta call bs.

In my exerience with mages, I've never had a spell cast once last for "IC days" at a time. Days? Days?

I can attest to that as well, from personal experience playing both a vivaduan and a rukkian. Yes, days, IC days at a time. Real-life hours at a time, waiting for one spell to wear off.

[NoteworthyFellow]

Despite that, I have to side against a dispell command.  If you don't want a spell to linger for hours then cast it at nil.

This. Use nil, that's what it's for.

I've played a mage in the past who needed to cast spells like that on himself at a high power level to survive, and found himself locked outside of the gates for IC days as a result because nobody was around who could dispel them for him.

I gotta call bs.

In my exerience with mages, I've never had a spell cast once last for "IC days" at a time. Days? Days?

I can attest to that as well, from personal experience playing both a vivaduan and a rukkian. Yes, days, IC days at a time. Real-life hours at a time, waiting for one spell to wear off.

I can't think of a way to request a self-dispel function without it sounding like I want mages to be easier to play, because that's not what I want at all.  It's just that the way it stands now, if a mage buffs himself up, whether Vivaduan or Rukkian or anything else (except for a specific instance, of course), and I think buffing oneself is understandable when outside of a city, then that mage has locked himself out of that city for a long while.  Me, sometimes I can only play a couple of hours at a time.  I often don't have time to hang out in the wilderness waiting for a spell to wear off, and therefore I'm forced to ask for either a) ranger quit for certain elementalists, b) the ability to dispel one's own buffs on oneself like at least three of a certain elementalist guild's buffs can be self-dispelled even by mundanes, or c) as a last resort, shortened durations on the spells in question.

Damn, here I go breaking my promise.  Okay.  I've made my argument, I'll let it drop.

[Marauder Moe]

You know, the magicker's quarter does have a quasi-tavern-like meeting place already.  In addition, it hasn't always been uncommon for mages of all elements to congregate in one temple. 

It's just a matter of being willing to idle in such a place (hoping to attract people who walk by to see if anyone's there) instead of going to a somewhere that's less appropriate for you to be but has more people.

Might also be good if a bunch of gemmers find themselves in a normal bar they'd all go back to their quarter to hang out instead of just staying where they are.

[Eloran]

And Eloran, this is a newbie's observation. There are possibly spells with much longer durations. Are you sure you have enough experience, enough to call others stupidliar?

Do not question my experience, nor imply that I called anyone else stupid or a liar. I felt that NWF was overexaggerating the time expired for a spell. I think I have an idea of which one he's talking about now, though I've only cast it at lower levels and never had a problem with it.

I've played every elementalist class and had four different types max. I'd like to think I know what the fuck I'm talking about.

Edited because I misread Eloran's post, he called people claiming magick durations are long 'lying', not 'stupid'...

I never called anyone a liar. Stop [ass]uming.

[Nyr]

Regarding the original post:  Templars (both PCs and NPCs) certainly can and might get angry if anyone tries to haggle with them over something like getting a gem.  Then again, they may not--that is up to the person playing or animating the templar.  Getting a gem is not necessarily a right, but Allanak tends to gem mages rather than execute them, as the documentation and history would suggest.

[AmandaGreathouse]

NEED MOAR GIKERS!!!!!!!

Malken wyns the GDB.

On a sidenote:

Gemmed kinda make me recall the Tan Muark. While some would consider it 'Arm Lite' (or Tuluk, or any number of things, given the poster), I wouldn't say that it is. More just... well... and this is something I've noticed, talking to people that are fairly new, many of them see so many gemmed and so few other magickers that I've talked to several people where I would make some comment about a magicker, and they would be like 'Do what now?', but then they've only -ever- seen gemmed, they don't call a magicker a magicker, whether or not they're gemmed, they get called a gemmer. Kinda like the way that the smaller human tribes are often overlooked by newer players in favor of the Muarki. You say magicker, you mean gemmed, you say tribal, you mean Muarki.

I highly encourage there to be more announced magickers in Luirs. With close proximity to accepting tribals (only some tribes), and only the need to announce the ability, it gives the most unrestricted possibilities. You don't have to go rogue or go home. Plus, if you ship some magicker apps to Luirs, people will see a few more nongemmed (SCARY), and gemmed will be a less common sight in the Gaj. (my guess).

Though I do completely agree with 7DV. Christ, 1/4 of your city is dedicated to them. So... 1/4... the Gaj is a crowded place factoring in VNPCs... so that's probably more like 25-40 gemmed in the Gaj at any given time, taking VNPC's into account. I mean.... they don't even usually steal from you like a skinny would.

[number13]

I highly encourage there to be more announced magickers in Luirs. With close proximity to accepting tribals (only some tribes), and only the need to announce the ability, it gives the most unrestricted possibilities. You don't have to go rogue or go home.

Terrible idea, imho.  Luirs is usually mostly devoid of PC population, meaning a colony of gickers will transform it (perceptionwise) in to the Mage-City.

Christ, 1/4 of your city is dedicated to them. So... 1/4... the Gaj is a crowded place factoring in VNPCs...

Even if one were to accept that the magicker quarter is as large as the commoner quarter, certainly the population of magickers is not 1/4th of the total population or that gickers would be generally encountered at the seedy watering hole. That suggests that the noble quarter also supplies 1/4th of the total population, and so supplies 1/4th of the Gaj's business.

I have no idea what the actual population of gickers is in Allanak, but I would like to imagine it as being roughly equal or perhaps less than the population of nobles.  I wish that distribution were so in game, at any rate.

[Lizzie]

They're "declared", not "announced." They're not public, no one -other- than those Kuraci officials they tell, know about their abiities. That is why the declared mages feel comfortable in declaring themselves. That is why they declare themselves. Because there is a measure of confidentiality involved. In other words, there are probably LOTS of magickers in Luir's Outpost. It's just that it's none of your business that they're magickers. Whoever needs to know, probably already knows.

[AmandaGreathouse]

It's not that I'm talking about somebody walking around with a plaque that.... nevermind. I can say that I know this, but the details are too recent. Perhaps my wording was a bit off, but yes, I did read the boards and see that about 'declaring' yourself. And the part where it says that a gem is considered the same. Sorry for using the word announcing.

[Niamh]

Locking this thread for two reasons.

1.  Dead kank, beaten to bloody pulp.
2.  Things are getting uncivil and flamey.