Magicker population?

[number13]

The problem is people creating an expectation of what magick should be, and then getting upset when their image is ruined.

Pretty much, though I didn't create expectation wholesale. It is what I experienced in Allanak prior to what seems to me an uptick in the -visible- magicker population. Upset is a strong word. I'm done with "upset".  For me, this is more of a discussion of game design than a thread that will lead to down a path of change for the mud.

In my mind, it's the 'magicker side' of the argument that's getting upset. I've found a very good solution to my own personal magicker problem, and it's worked out mostly fine for the past five or so characters.

[jhunter]

The problem is people creating an expectation of what magick should be, and then getting upset when their image is ruined.

QFT.

[Agent_137]

i'd just like to say I've noticed some cool mundane/gemmer interactions lately. Folks glaring and being grumpy at gemmers and gemmers doing the same back. It's really made the game much more exciting to just watch. kudos.

[Jdr]

Guys, at the risk of IC INFOZ, I play a gemmer. I go around practically painting a picture that screams 'PICK ON ME I AM A MAGICKER' because none of you seem to be able to get it into your own heads to take the initiative to do it.

You STILL fail to do it. Blame yourselves if you don't see enough magick-hatin'.

[FantasyWriter]

I was of the same opinion when I played my Gemmer.  Noone ever acted like the were scared/hated/even disliked me.

[spawnloser]

It's really very simple.  You have to disregard all that you know OOC and become more superstitious IC.

[Majikal]

Guys, at the risk of IC INFOZ, I play a gemmer. I go around practically painting a picture that screams 'PICK ON ME I AM A MAGICKER' because none of you seem to be able to get it into your own heads to take the initiative to do it.

You STILL fail to do it. Blame yourselves if you don't see enough magick-hatin'.

Also, I've noticed alot of times it takes someone to get the ball rolling. With nobody willing to hop into the RPz nothing usually happens. We've all experienced sitting at a packed bar with nothing going on and then one person throws out a 'fuck you necker' comment and gets everyone up and going. Start your gicker hatin' and I'm sure other folks will join in on the gicker hatin'.

[jhunter]

The most I usually experience with a gemmer is mundane pcs ignoring mine. Unless they catch me outside the gates with no obvious spells up and it appears that I'm not a Krathi, which is rather silly. You'd think it'd be the opposite. Fuck with me while you're under the protection of the soldiers and the templars and avoid me like my mere gaze will cause your whole family's genitals to melt if there's no one around to protect you.

[RogueGunslinger]

Yes please.

[Malken]

The most I usually experience with a gemmer is mundane pcs ignoring mine. Unless they catch me outside the gates with no obvious spells up and it appears that I'm not a Krathi, which is rather silly. You'd think it'd be the opposite. Fuck with me while you're under the protection of the soldiers and the templars and avoid me like my mere gaze will cause your whole family's genitals to melt if there's no one around to protect you.

The problem is that I know some gemmers who are dying to be abused and insulted, but I also know some gemmers that would not hesitate to bribe a soldier with their immense wealth and/or spend their time finding ways to utterly destroy you for the insult afterward. I can see how the player of a mundane PC would hesitate before doing so. I know I would be more than happy to receive more insults and abuse, but I also know that a few character's back, my character's brother was killed by a militia who was bribed by a gemmer for insulting the gemmer.

It's the same problem raiders and victims face, really.. The fact that you can't trust 100% of the playerbase to act in a mature way that would benifit to us all instead of whacking the first guy that annoys you.

Actually, just to add to my example, there was a pretty awesome bard not too long ago who would insult the gemmers in the funniest of ways, but again, that PC didn't last very long.. It's like you can only insult gemmers if you want to play a flavor character that won't last long until your next serious character.

Now people will say, "Well, you shouldn't insult a guy with a bazooka, really, so just ignore them and walk out and make them feel isolated..", which just brings the thread to a full circle for the 50th time since the thread was started.

Yup, see? I didn't even finish editing my post that Salt Merchant replied with something I knew would be replied. AGAIN, NOTHING WILL CHANGE UNLESS THE STAFF DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT.

If the Staff don't do anything about it, then there's no problem, and we can all move along.

[Salt Merchant]

The problem is that I know some gemmers who are dying to be abused and insulted, but I also know some gemmers that would not hesitate to bribe a soldier with their immense wealth and/or spend their time finding ways to utterly destroy you for the insult afterward. I can see how the player of a mundane PC would hesitate before doing so. I know I would be more than happy to receive more insults and abuse, but I also know that a few character's back, my character's brother was killed by a militia who was bribed by a gemmer for insulting the gemmer.

How is this different from insulting someone else with power? If your character insulted a noble greviously, would you expect him to live? A templar? A senior agent of a GMH? Why should a magicker withhold retribution if everyone else is justified to do as they please?

[Malken]

The problem is that I know some gemmers who are dying to be abused and insulted, but I also know some gemmers that would not hesitate to bribe a soldier with their immense wealth and/or spend their time finding ways to utterly destroy you for the insult afterward. I can see how the player of a mundane PC would hesitate before doing so. I know I would be more than happy to receive more insults and abuse, but I also know that a few character's back, my character's brother was killed by a militia who was bribed by a gemmer for insulting the gemmer.

How is this different from insulting someone else with power? If your character insulted a noble greviously, would you expect him to live? A templar? A senior agent of a GMH? Why should a magicker withhold retribution if everyone else is justified to do as they please?

Redundant thread is redundant.

You know what? I don't care at all, I'm just typing things that I know will be said over and over again. My current gemmer feels like a rockstar, he has a bunch of mundane friends, a small fortune, he'd have a whole bunch of (mundane) lovers if he felt like it and respect.

For every mundane that insults me, I can turn judo-reverse five mundane gemmer-hater characters into my best buddies/allies/lovers. (Longest mundane to show hatred toward my PC was maybe three interactions long..)

I can FEEL like they are trying really hard, though. It just never really lasts. They break after a (short) while.

Welcome to Allanak, baby. I got me some nice black bling bling around my neck.

[Salt Merchant]

This is why I suggest, again, that the gemmed be moved "off-site".

Mundane PCs in Allanak will be left with plenty of opportunites for hate: elves, half-elves and 'rinthi.

This constant dissatisfaction with magickers (mostly meaning the gemmed) and roleplay regarding them will die, die, die. Over time, fear and mystery will be restored.

The gemmed will be just as happy off-site as they are now, especially if their new home is set up to promote more interaction between temples (maybe a common courtyard, for example). The move off-site could even have some cool underlying reason that would give them additional purpose.

Plus other interesting dynamics are developed.

What is there not to like about this idea?

[X-D]

Actually, that bard was killed by accident, do to a sad long standing defect in the mercy command that staff thinks is not a defect.

[number13]

How is this different from insulting someone else with power? If your character insulted a noble greviously, would you expect him to live? A templar? A senior agent of a GMH? Why should a magicker withhold retribution if everyone else is justified to do as they please?

As Malken alludes, the gemmed aren't suppose to have so much social power.

Really, the trade off for being gemmed should be a social status resembling a rinthi elf. You might be strong in your own territory with your friends backing you up, but should be garbage in Allanak proper.  Otherwise, from a purely gamist standpoint, there isn't much of a balancing factor, and for players interested in the gamist aspect there's currently not much of a point to playing a mundane in Allanak.

That mob of magicker-hating vNPCs is entirely virtual if the game doesn't support it. My half-serious suggestion: stealing from a gemmer or attacking a gemmer with bare fists shouldn't automatically be a crime, unless a Templar is watching or the crime is committed in the Quarter. Maybe, the average soldier doesn't care, and looks the other way.

....

As I've said before, the situation is similar to playing a mundane (the perpetual victim) in a Vampire MUSH.  It's not something people do out of choice. It's something people do because they aren't sitting at the cool kids' table.  These pointless magicker discussions that spring up like clockwork are evidence that the design isn't as good as it could be.  Note that magick here is JUST THE WINDOW DRESSING. It could just as easily be Vampires or Werewolves or spiced-up Mul killing machines or a new class of karma apped Militia.

[Rhyden]

Nevertheless, that bard is dead, very recent, and totally off-topic.

I would like gemmers to be isolated in a section of Allanak. There's enough gemmers around to sometimes outweigh the mundane PCs. Let the gemmers mingle and clash in their own little area, while leaving the mundanes to deal with their own little mundane lives. There's a point when seeing gemmers is so common, it's hard to role play "that magick fear" instead of just thinking "oh hey, another gemmer, what else is new". I've played maybe two gemmed in the past and both times found it difficult to invoke any kind of fear in the mundanes around because there were so many other gemmers around. This isn't to say magickers can't be scary. They are, trust me. It's just when I see a large group of gemmed around, I'd rather it an extremely rare and 'shake-in-your-boots' experience rather than: "Oh, hey, the gemmer squad is out making rounds at the bar again. How quaint."

[Salt Merchant]

As Malken alludes, the gemmed aren't suppose to have so much social power.

Social power isn't needed for retribution, although it can be useful.

There's also financial power and personal power.

Financial power can be wielded by anyone. That character's brother could have been the one paying the militia to off the magicker just as easily.

Then there's personal power. People also make the mistake of thinking that because a magicker wears a gem, he or she has been totally declawed. It's not so. It just means the magicker needs to plan and be careful, just like any criminal.

[number13]

As Malken alludes, the gemmed aren't suppose to have so much social power.
Financial power can be wielded by anyone.

Financial power is a kind of social power.  You need the social connections for the coins to mean anything, otherwise they are just weight in your inventory.  For example, a halfling could have a large. But the halfling has no way to spend the large.

[staggerlee]

I don't really see how an extensive analysis of the strengths and weaknesses of magickers can possibly help people rp being afraid of their power.

[Salt Merchant]

As Malken alludes, the gemmed aren't suppose to have so much social power.
Financial power can be wielded by anyone.

Financial power is a kind of social power.  You need the social connections for the coins to mean anything, otherwise they are just weight in your inventory.  For example, a halfling could have a large. But the halfling has no way to spend the large.

Poor example, because a halfling wouldn't want to spend a large to begin with.

You don't really need to be friends with the person you're bribing. He doesn't have to like you at all, even. You just need to offer enough. Sure, if he's your buddy he might ask less (or maybe even not). But willing to do it for coin means he's mercenary enough to do it if the pay is good enough, regardless, in many cases (so what if there are a few principled hold-outs).

[Malken]

As Malken alludes, the gemmed aren't suppose to have so much social power.
Financial power can be wielded by anyone.

Financial power is a kind of social power.  You need the social connections for the coins to mean anything, otherwise they are just weight in your inventory.  For example, a halfling could have a large. But the halfling has no way to spend the large.

Poor example, because a halfling wouldn't want to spend a large to begin with.

You don't really need to be friends with the person you're bribing. He doesn't have to like you at all, even. You just need to offer enough. Sure, if he's your buddy he might ask less (or maybe even not). But willing to do it for coin means he's mercenary enough to do it if the pay is good enough, regardless, in many cases (so what if there are a few principled hold-outs).

Who cares if my magicker has 500 'sids or 50000, that wasn't my point at all. My point is that some of you are saying mundane PCs should insult the gemmers more often, but some gemmers just turn around and get you killed if you do it afterward.

Sure, I could get all the gemmers killed as well, by lying to and bribing others, but do I really want to do this? It's certainly not going to help any.

That's why I'm saying that just telling people to be more of this and less of that IS NOT GOING TO DO ANYTHING.

Telling us that we need to disregard all that you know OOC and become more superstitious IC isn't going to help anyone either, the playerbase hasn't changed in 10 years (we've had this exact same thread every three months or so), it's certainly not going to change now. That's my point.

Coded changes are what make the playerbase change, not speech. You want the magickers to be more hated and regarded as the abominations that they are? Then you have to put some code into making it so. Make it that you can risk catching crotch rot codedly if my gemmer sits next to you. That'll change some, not telling them that ICly it could happen, even if OOCly, we all know it won't. Sorry to the few guys and girls around that can play it that way, but you are certainly in the minority.

[number13]

You don't really need to be friends with the person you're bribing. He doesn't have to like you at all, even. You just need to offer enough. Sure, if he's your buddy he might ask less (or maybe even not). But willing to do it for coin means he's mercenary enough to do it if the pay is good enough, regardless, in many cases (so what if there are a few principled hold-outs).

You are Militiaman Steve:

* If a rinthi elf gives you a large and says, "Go beat the snot out of Amos," you pocket the coins. And possibly beat the snot out of the rinthi elf.
* If Gemmer Joe, who's slept with every available PC in the city, gives you a large and says, "Go beat the snot out of Amos," you probably go beat the snot out of Amos.
* Amos gives you a large and says, "Go beat the snot out of Gemmer Joe" you probably refuse the coins and say, "Can't. Gemmer Joe is too well connected/might melt my face off. Besides, I'm sleeping with him." Or maybe you pocket the coins and beat the snot out of Amos. Regardless, Gemmer Joe is going to be sitting pretty at the end of it.

That's the problem right there, as it relates to the gemmed. They generally hold the cards (socially and powerwise) over every grebber there is. But-- the mundanes are supposed to be holding some of those cards, not just the Vampires (i mean... werewo... no elementalists!). There's a different, yet related, problem with rogue gickers.

I don't want to get into that can of worms.

[jhunter]

I'd like to point out that pcs run the risk of retaliation from any pc type they mess with. It's no different for magickers in general, just different from pc to pc regardless of class. You can't expect to be able to fuck with -anyone- on Zalanthas and not watch your back afterward, even if you are a templar.

[Gunnerblaster]

Pulling a poisoned arrow from the corpse of the brown-haired, black-gemmed man, the desert-tanned, bearded man says, in sirihish: "Well, I don' see wha' de big fuckin' deal is. Dey die jus' de same as always."

Don't like non-mundanes?

Deal with it.

[RogueGunslinger]

Want to stick it to the 'gickers? Join the Legion.