The player prejudice against Tuluk

[jcljules]

I like both. My character doesn't, though. Newbie hunting's easier up north.

Heh. For a second I thought you meant hunting newbies.

[Synthesis]

I like both. My character doesn't, though. Newbie hunting's easier up north.

Heh. For a second I thought you meant hunting newbies.

That's definitely easier too.

[Morrolan]

I have never (that I remember) started a character in Tuluk.  I have, however, played characters there for weeks or months, at times.  My second Byn Sarge got his second stripe there, I believe.  I remember some character who joined suiciding by running away into the Grey Forest.  So I took the whole unit head-first in there to track them down.

And yes, we came out relatively unscathed.  Mostly by running away from everything that went bump in the night--at around knee-level.

So do I like Tuluk?  Well, I don't like political play, so for that reason I like neither 'Nak nor Tuluk.  But I do not believe that Tuluk is full of fluffy bunny huggers.

I actually find that I like the political style in Tuluk more.  I just find it easier to avoid getting involved in the South.

"Just give me a home,
"Where the mekillots roam..."

Morrolan

[Ourla]

I've played every one of my PCs except for one in Tuluk.  I think at this point, it's going to be hard to teach an old dog new tricks.  I love, love, love Tuluk, but I'm indifferent to Allanak because I just don't know much about it.

The constant OOC harping on the boards about hating this city or that gets extremely obnoxious sometimes, and it definitely colored my opinions as a newbie.

[Riev]

The constant OOC harping on the boards about hating this city or that gets extremely obnoxious sometimes, and it definitely colored my opinions as a newbie.

This is something that gets to me as well. I think a lot of the forum-savvy newbies actually read the forums for posts based on things like this, and if Tuluk is "a bunch of fluffy gortok lovers", then those are the types on newbie PCs it will see.

Again people. PLEASE play the same gritty character you would in Allanak. Just do it subtly*!


* - By this I mean, you can still be a gritty, barbarian freak, but just tone it down a notch. Do it in thinks, and feels. You have every right to "feel like you want to punch that haughty fuck in the collar bone", and then DO it if you're in the Tooth. FUCK I miss brawls.

[Melody]

Like it's more harshness for the sake of harshness than harshness for realism.

Replace "Harshness" with "Classy" "Refined" and "Subtle", and you've got my general attitude of topside Tuluk.

Allanak can be classy, refined, and subtle too. In fact, it means more because there is a sharp contrast. To me, Allanak has everything Tuluk has, throw in the easy to walk around layout. If I play for 2 hours, rushing from parading silks in Trader's to sneaky conspiracy with Guild to share a drink in Gaj with the Byner, I only have to spend 10 minutes overall on walking. If I do that in Tuluk... that's about 30 minutes spent in walking around the empty, big city. If I only have 1 hour to rp and to meet with my fellow conspirators.... Tek forbid. Half of the time would be spent in us walking around to meet at a middle ground somewhere.

Also, someone mentioned about the structure problem. There is never enough players in Tuluk to make it feel... full. It either lacks nobles, or merchants, or templars, or criminals, or bards, or several of them at the same time.

I have given Tuluk a chance. I think it is very beautifully designed and written. I also think it is very hard to rp in it if I have anything less than 20 hours playing time a week and I want the full rp package (politics, crimes, etc). Life is not easier in Tuluk icly, but it is a hell lot more convenient oocly in Allanak.

[elvenchipmunk]

Tuluk is big. It does not take 30 minutes to walk across it. I know you're exaggerating, but it's not as bad as you put it.

There are maybe 15 rooms between the Sanctuary and the Tembo's Tooth, and about 10 between the Sanctuary and Firestorm Pub. Any of these taverns to Under Tuluk (or at least to the Old Quarter) is twenty rooms max. At less than a couple seconds per room, I think it's safe to say that you will only be spending a few minutes walking, not an incredible amount of time.

You can parade in silks in the Sanctuary, spend a minute walking to the Tooth to talk with a Bynner, then spend maybe five or so minutes heading to Under Tuluk if you want to do some sneaky stuff. Sure, if you want to shop in the Poet's Circle it's a bit of a walk, but still, I don't think time spent walking is a valid argument. And the taverns are all relatively nearby, so I don't think that's what spreads the playerbase out in Tuluk.

In my opinion, what spreads the player base out in Tuluk is that there are three major places to gather (Sanctuary, Tooth, Firestorm) where all of the different social classes are welcome. Or, at least the majority of the players of Tuluk (i.e. not nobles and Templars, usually) are allowed to gather. There is too much choice on where to hang out. I think having one upper-class tavern, like the Sanctuary, might be nice to have for nobles and Templars, then everyone else should be restricted to the other two (or one, in an ideal world). Oh, and also people holing themselves up in estates/compounds/apartments, but I think that also occurs in Nak.

This is just my observations, of course.

Oh, and also, if you want to start seeing brawls in the Tooth, then brawl some fuckers in the Tooth. Be the change and all that.

And one more thing, I do agree that the social structure is troublesome. Nobles/GMH members/Templars seem to juggle around a lot. There never seems to be a balance. And as for criminals, well. There are reasons that playing an unregistered criminal is terribly hard to do if you want to have any social life. To play this life, you need to play completely in Under Tuluk, then head up top only for your criminal deeds then head right back down. This is fine, and I don't mind doing this. The problem is again that Tuluk is spread out, so Under Tuluk does not often have many players. Hopefully the recent work will boost the numbers somewhat.

I personally do like playing in Tuluk more than the other cities, though.

[FantasyWriter]

I use to have an OOC allegiance to Alanak.  After playing a long lived PC in Tuluk (he was born, raised, and spend his first non-virtual year in Nak) for about 2 IC years, my OOC allegiance has slowly shifted to Tuluk, although at most I only play every third PC there so I don't know too much OOC about what is going on IC.

[Melody]

stuffs

But the ratio is right!

I don't mean the walk from Sanctuary to Firestorm. Try having a meeting in a shady apartment in Tuluk, then walk all the way to have another meeting in Bard's Circle for a more upscale meeting, then it is back to compound for food, then it is back to shady apartment for a meeting, then....

I don't know about others, but during some intense days (say, once or twice a week), I need to fit 5 meetings in 2 hours (all good people know you have to be at different places for different meetings with different people). A few minutes each way and that is like 1/4 of my online time gone.

It is not so bad. It is bad compared to Allanak. Sure, when it is off peak and I am bored, I don't mind wandering endlessly and aimlessly. But oftimes, it is very inconvenient when you know someone vital to a plot is on, and you MUST talk with them, and they can only be online for 20 minutes, and the Way just won't do, and you are tea sipping while they logged on at the Tooth.... and have this happen every day.

Though at times it is worse in Allanak. The gate opening and closing time can delay meetings for up to 40 minutes.

[zanthalandreams]

I love, love, love Tuluk, but I'm indifferent to Allanak because I just don't know much about it.

I only moderately understand the social dynamic of Chosens and Faithfuls, because I've never really cared to play in that circle.  What I love about Tuluk usually happens outside of the city itself.   Inside the city - I don't hate it, but I don't spend much time in the few areas where everyone gets to play dress-up and talk about the next fab party.  My favorite parts are a little more out of the way to that scene.

What I love most about Tuluk:

The m'f'ing Tembo's Tooth.   (when there isn't a scene party happening)
Freil's
The surrounding wildlands 
 

[SMuz]

Yeah, honestly, I'm not too fond of the Tuluk layout either. Actually, I don't like the layout of either of the city-states, though Luir's Outpost and Red Storm seem nice and simple enough for me. Both can be a bitch to go shopping in, unless you've already memorized with stores buy and sell which item; and it's even more annoying with the movement delay. Tuluk is also a bit more of a bitch because I know there's two 'zones' you can sell things and both are fairly far away from each other or so it feels. And all those taverns scattered around the place seems to thin out the tavern-visiting populace.

Though, I feel that some of you are pressing it a bit far with the stereotypes. You can be a harsh jerk in Tuluk (just not too mean) and you can be fancy-pants noble in Allanak (just not soft). There are also subtlenesses in the south and direct arguing going on in the north. I'm not OOCly inclined towards either, so that makes me happy on both ends

[Cutthroat]

I don't know if the amount of taverns is really a problem. People who are going to go to a tavern to tavern-sit in Tuluk in the first place tend to gravitate towards the Sanctuary anyway. If people go to the others, it's generally because there's something there to buy or do that you can't at the Sanc.

The layout of Tuluk isn't terrible. It's learnable. There's thirteen rooms or so between the Gaj and the Trader's, and something like sixteen rooms between the Sanctuary and Tooth, probably the two most visited taverns. Not bad at all. Becoming completely lost while walking around Tuluk is hard to do, once you've been around there for a few hours. Sure, the trek from the Ghaati to the Tooth might be pretty long, but the convenient thing about tavern-sitting in the Sanctuary is that you can go where you need to go, no matter where you need to go, in a reasonable amount of time.

And it's definitely possible to be "gritty" in Tuluk. It's possible to not get involved in the political scene if you so desire. It's fair to say that a lot of Tuluki RP revolves around that, but it's still possible to not get involved and have fun at the same time. Just as it is in Allanak.

[Qzzrbl]

* - By this I mean, you can still be a gritty, barbarian freak, but just tone it down a notch. Do it in thinks, and feels. You have every right to "feel like you want to punch that haughty fuck in the collar bone", and then DO it if you're in the Tooth. FUCK I miss brawls.

Last time I did this in Tuluk, I got thrown out of the city.

You read that right, they threw my character's drunk happy ass right out on North road, a little ways outside the gates.

And this was before he could even throw a punch, he was just drunk and talking shit.

-shrug-

[Yokunama]

I use to have an OOC allegiance to Alanak.  After playing a long lived PC in Tuluk (he was born, raised, and spend his first non-virtual year in Nak) for about 2 IC years, my OOC allegiance has slowly shifted to Tuluk, although at most I only play every third PC there so I don't know too much OOC about what is going on IC.

[Bogre]

I use to have an OOC allegiance to Alanak.  After playing a long lived PC in Tuluk (he was born, raised, and spend his first non-virtual year in Nak) for about 2 IC years, my OOC allegiance has slowly shifted to Tuluk, although at most I only play every third PC there so I don't know too much OOC about what is going on IC.

I'm exactly the opposite.

[zanthalandreams]

You know, it feels like a pretty decent mix posting here.  The game does offer quite a bit for the different styles and enjoyments of players.  I don't dig on the silks and mixers scene, but I'm glad it is there - if only to give my dusty, stained wasterunner someone to sneer at.  Maybe it is just a GDB thing where you have to bash Tuluk to be one of the cool kids? 

[Bogre]

I personally think there are all types- there are people who like playing grebbers, nobles, warriors, criminals, crafters, mages, north/south/tribal whatever. And then there are people who like to mix it all up. I think a lot of the Tuluki 'hate' is joking...but I can see where there are large gaps in what Tuluk could be doing.

That's not to say that it isn't rocking. I feel the Chosen system of governance and partisan ship works well, undertuluk is growing, and the templars and militia are all good.There's just a lower of middling 'normal' types, the grebbers and such that are all over Allanak, at least in my opinion.

I dunno. There is a new awesome flavor to Tuluk, i'd def. recommend trying it out if its been a while.

[My 2 sids]

He's right, lots of things don't make sense in Tuluk.

This.

My biggest problem is OOC vs. IC.

ICly I know there are supposed to be a lot of different "types" of characters (including the gritty and artistic).  But, OOCly all I hear about is _one_ type.  So, I end up feeling like I'm doing something wrong if I create a PC in Tuluk who is not political.   

So, although I can sure create an art-loving, clay-digging, hunter -- OOCly I know there isn't going to be anyone in the bars and any friendship with other PCs will be "I scratch your back, you scratch mine" and all the IMMs focus on political PCs (including all the emphasis placed on partisan roles/ clan roles/ thief roles as being political)

[Rairen]

Maybe it is just a GDB thing where you have to bash Tuluk to be one of the cool kids? 

Pretty much.  When I started, the rhetoric was much harsher (and, yes, colored my perceptions of the city - but in hindsight made me want to work a little harder to figure it out, so thanks, early Tuluk-bashers).  If you look at the quality of the players above who like playing there or who have constructive criticism for it, things're fine.  It's almost split fifty-fifty with regards to preference.

My biggest problem is OOC vs. IC.

ICly I know there are supposed to be a lot of different "types" of characters (including the gritty and artistic).  But, OOCly all I hear about is _one_ type.  So, I end up feeling like I'm doing something wrong if I create a PC in Tuluk who is not political.  

I only dabble in the OOC communities (and usually because I have to or because my boyfriend wants me to be more accessable to folks) so I'm not an expert in this, but this still could apply: Tuluk is not a place for the malleable.  Everyone will have an opinion on who you should be, IC and OOC. That pressure to be 'normal' will continue unless you push through it with the character, assuming the guy lives long enough to do so. (Secret challenge #3 with Tuluk: character lifespans preclude interesting plots).

It was a struggle when I started a serious Tuluki character.  I felt like I spent the first year playing here earning my right to exist.    I'm pathologically patient, but I could easily see it turning someone off.   That said, I don't know what could be done to change that pressure.  ICly, the culture lends itself to it, while OOCly, we're all a bunch of prima donnas, anyway.  When the two combine, the pressure to play a specific character can become oppressive.

[deviant storm]

Forgive this bit of silliness, but to me both cities have their strengths and weaknesses. They're just different. Different is good. A black city, a wite city...just like a chessboard.



One night in Tuluk and the world's your spice brick,
The bars are many but the drinks ain't free.
You'll find a bard in their circles right quick,
And if you're lucky than the bard's a she.
I can feel a dancer sliding up to me.

                       And for Allanak:

One night in the Black makes the hard man humble,
Not much between despair and ecstasy.
One night in Allanak and the tough guys tumble,
Can't be too careful with your company.
I can feel a 'rinthi walking next to me.


Sorry about the silly. And for butchering the song. Back to your serious discussion here. I'm off to bed.

[a strange shadow]

Oh god I love that song.

[X-D]

I like Tuluk.

I like Allanak.

When I play in Tuluk I rag on allanak.

When I play in allanak I rag on Tuluk.

Isn't that what most people do?

When Vanth started this thread I was like Huh? Whats this about?
Always considered the back and forth harping on tuluk and allanak to be basic good natured rivalry. Since that is all I ever did.

Oh, and I don't think Tuluk is too big, I think Allanak is too small.

[jhunter]

Oh, and I don't think Tuluk is too big, I think Allanak is too small.

I've often thought this myself.

[Inix77]

Love Tuluk. My best times on Arm have been in Tuluk, I just can't get used to Allanak. I've traveled between the cities and had one character based in Allanak (Bynner), and I just couldn't get used to it. I think I'm just used to Tuluk that's why I love it, but isn't that true for all of us?

[DustMight]

Maybe it is just a GDB thing where you have to bash Tuluk to be one of the cool kids? 

Pretty much. 

That's really minimizing the criticism leveled at the city and not fair to the arguments presented against Tuluk.