The player prejudice against Tuluk

[Vanth]

Least Favorite:

#1, #2 #3: Any noble house in Tuluk

(Note: I tend to stay completely ignorant of political things up north from an OOC perspective so I can maintain my purity.  I can't even name the noble houses in Tuluk.)

Sorry to pick on DustMight--their comment was just the most recent one, and this is not directed as a criticism against one player.

I realize that some of you don't like the upper-class social scene in Tuluk, and that's fine.  But I think that a real disservice is being done to Tuluk by the (sometimes cyclical) lack of rough-and-tumble characters there.

There is plenty of room in Tuluk (literally, heh) for characters who never step foot into the Sanctuary, don't get rich, and live hardscrabble lives where they rarely see a noble or a bard. 
*The Warrens are IMO a great place for well-played rogue classes, even if you never visit the other quarters of the city. 
*There is Byn presence in Tuluk when there is enough player interest to sustain it. 
*There are menial 'jobs' you can do to stay outside the noble employment/partisan system, if you really feel the need to avoid it. 
*There are coded rooftops in some places. 
*You can't play a hated known magicker there, but on the other hand you can play a desperate spice addict.
*Hunting can be easily as dangerous as it is around Allanak. There are mean humanoid NPCs (of 3 different races) who will defend their nearby territories, and bahamets come much closer to Tuluk than mekillots do to Allanak.
*You can play someone who couldn't afford to eat in Allanak post-RSE's closure, and is therefore an Allanaki refugee in Tuluk.

There are certainly other options besides these, but my general gist is that nobles, merchants, and bards are not all of Tuluk; and if you let them be all of Tuluk then you are the reason for that perception.

[Yam]

I think most people who make fun of Tuluk OOCly don't actually dislike playing there.

At least I know that's the case with me.

[Ampere]

You forgot to mention that zone some obsessed nerd's been tweaking for the past couple months.

[HATSnHARLOTRY]

I know of one place in Tuluk where the people drink all night and day, and yell incomprehensible things.

[Semper]

Player's dislike playing in Tuluk mostly because they don't understand it or haven't had a good experience there. At least those are the top reasons that I can think of.

There's a number of threads dedicated to making Tuluk to be understood better by the playerbase. There's a lot of effort going in for players to have a good experience there as well. All that's asked for, is to give Tuluk a real try. Not for one or two characters, but for as many as it may take before you can make an honest judgment on that area of the game. It'll be worth it, even if that's all you get from your time in the pyramid city.

[Lakota]

People talk a lot of crap about Allanak too Vanth. I personally don't prefer playing in cities anymore, but that's just because I've had all the fun I can in each.

I'm partial to Tuluk from its occupation/rebellion days, but eh.

[Voular]

The only comment I can muster up on this is that there's lack of players to sustain a full rounded culture in both cities. And that they interact far to little, leaving two separate "games" played for to often. At least that is my experience.

[DustMight]

Vanth,

I think you have a valid point and I have already started thinking (prior to your post) about playing either a non-citizen who decides to live in the north for some reason or a northerner doing something within the city because you know the characters and RP are very good (despite how we all get along on the GDB).   

I have to agree with Voular, too.  I've felt (since the fall of Tuluk, really) that the game would have been better had all energies (and player base) been focused on one city and a wasteland of desperate villages up north with an encroaching forest/wild-life.

But, then, that's a different game and history than the one that exists.

[Winterless]

I absolutely love Tuluk, and if current things weren't keeping me from there I would so be there. And, as an aside, I absolutely hate Allanak, so take that all you Tuluk haterz.

Tuluk, be my Valentine?

[y] [n] [maybe]

[AmandaGreathouse]

I absolutely love Tuluk, and if current things weren't keeping me from there I would so be there. And, as an aside, I absolutely hate Allanak, so take that all you Tuluk haterz.

This.

[DustMight]

Why do ya'll hate Allanak?

[AmandaGreathouse]

Truthfully, I don't like the totalitarian oppressiveness, I don't like how barren it is, I don't like the general feel of it. I like the vegetation, wildlife, rescources, social structure, and etc of Tuluk, but the ones in Allanak occasionally feel needlessly harsh. Like it's more harshness for the sake of harshness than harshness for realism. That's just mine, though.

[Malken]

Why do ya'll hate Allanak?

It's full of people that curses and do nasty things and can't sip wine properly and they're all a bunch of jerks and they always make fun of me and it's like, I can't have a BFF there, everyone ends up trying to kill me, and, sometimes, I'm super nice to them but they tell me to go FUDGE myself and I'm like, aw, it's just a game, why can't we all have fun and be together and laugh and hold hands and fight stuff together and be a great team and mine obsidian together and then spend our monies on jewelry and show them to our friends and they can show us their pretty silks as well and we can plan fun parties and gossip about people and giggle and .. I don't know, I just want to be happy and pretend that I'm a sweet guy online and have babies and raise them to be good people without having to deal with Templars who have nothing to do but fine me because I tell them they have a nice hat, or because I follow them around asking them if I can be of any help.

(indian crying face)

[Agent_137]

i play this game because it's post-apoc perma-death. ergo Nak is about 1000 times better than tuluk because it is in a DESERT.

[Ampere]

This isn't a 'hate allanak' thread. Tuluk is great for its diverse (not subtle) and alien culture; whereas Allanak is far more accessible to new players as it closely mirrors how westerners view ancient Rome.  Both are the shiznit.

[Jingo]

I can't be a love slave in Tuluk. Isn't that reason enough?

Though I play alot in Allanak; I think Tuluk has a better culture to play around with. I think people are just making assumptions on first impressions without even bothering the scratch the sevice.

Anyone who has been there for a while knows that Tuluk is not a nice place.

[Moofassa]

my play has been about 80/20 tuluk/allanak. The 20 for 'nak being almost all if not all Bynners.


Tuluk ftw.

[Dar]

i play this game because it's post-apoc perma-death. ergo Nak is about 1000 times better than tuluk because it is in a DESERT.

This.


I just do not understand Tuluk, hence my dislike in playing there. I also dislike the level of power and control the Templarate in Tuluk has. Who needs schemes, spies, and treachery, when you see and know everything. A little bit exaggerated, granted ... but if you got known enough to interest a lirathan, good luck keeping anything secret without twinking.  

[HATSnHARLOTRY]

Tuluk is like dark chocolate or fine wine. It takes a cultured mind and acquired taste to enjoy it. Fools.

[Malken]

Dar, your post need more IC infos, plz.

[spicemustflow]

He's right, lots of things don't make sense in Tuluk.

[Gimfalisette]

A lot of groups get hate on the GDB: Tuluk, Allanak (at times), Tuluki bards, gypsies, etc. I'd urge people to actually try playing any of those groups that they're hating on before really making a decision. You can't know what a group is really about before playing in it. I've found that my mind has really been changed about particular places and clans by making a true good-faith effort to play there.

[Gunnerblaster]

When I first started playing, Allanak was the place to be (Simply because I didn't know better).

Now, as I've matured my knowledge of the game world, I realize that Tuluk is one of the best places to go.

I view Tuluk as the cake-walk for most beginner players and Allanak as the place where veteran RP'ers thrive.

[ibusoe]

Vanth,

I like your post. 

Tuluk definitely has a gritty underbelly. 

Stealing is legal!!

[jcljules]

In my opinion, people just need to play the gritty PCs in Tuluk and stick to that--they'll attract other people. People are just always reluctant to start something when they're afraid of it becoming an isolated role. But if someone doesn't start it, nobody will.

[tortall]

Here's how I personally think about it:

Tuluk=Ancient Greece(art thriving, but still plots and backstabbing, but that's not the main focus that's in the history books)

Allanak=Ancient Rome(Let's kill everyone who gets in our way and shove people into the arena just to watch them die! WEE!!!)


Did I miss anything?

[Yam]

Tuluk=Ancient Greece(art thriving, but still plots and backstabbing, but that's not the main focus that's in the history books) AND ALSO THE BUTTSEX

[Mood]

I don't dislike Tuluk... it's just all those damned Tulukis that get to me. To be more specific, the silky, wine-sipping hunter types.

[Gimfalisette]

To be more specific, the silky, wine-sipping hunter types.

There is, unfortunately, a lot of pressure in Tuluk for everyone to be this type. I've played more than one Tuluki PC (or PC that ended up in Tuluk) who got crap from the Tuluki pbase (especially nobles, templars, and GMH family) for being gritty-ish. And by "crap" I mean lectures, gossip, and disciplinary measures.

Now, I do think gritty PCs should hang out more often at the Tooth or the Pub or the tavern in the tribal market, and less often at the Sanc or the Ghaati, but...there should be plenty of room for those gritty PCs. Plenty.

[Dalmeth]

Most of my career in Tuluk has been spent bringing the grit, and I can tell you, there's plenty of room.  You've just got to resist becoming someone's tool and have some ambition of your own, not to mention a taste for getting drunk at a reasonable price.

[Semper]

If there was a complaint against Tuluk, I'd say it would be it's layout. The very manner in which the city-state is set up divides the playerbase.

Tribals have the tribal marketplace and their own tavern. Bards have their tavern, -way- out of the way. Merchants and their retinue have their tavern in Friel's. And the dingier types have their tavern near the Warrens. The Sanctuary is the central tavern, where everyone out of those taverns can come and socialize, thus called the "Sanctuary" and just by stepping into the tavern you get a feel for which kinds of individuals visit there. Thus to fit into the crowd, you need to be dressed semi-casual.

To be more specific, the silky, wine-sipping hunter types.

As Gimfalisette mentioned, there's a degree of pressure (or inclination?) to have characters fit into this category. As a commoner, you get to wear silks (otherwise limited to Nobles in the south), you get to walk in higher social circles (if successful), while still having the freedom to hunt and craft and all the perks to being a commoner.

And honestly, there's nothing wrong with this. Tuluki culture allows for these kinds of commoners, which is why such character concepts may be attracted there. What should be happening should still be the subtlety and political backstabbing that happens beneath the surface. When that's lost, what you have left really are tree-hugging, ass-kissing Tuluki's which deserve to be called such.

[Lizzie]

I think Vanth created this post to distract us from remembering who the REAL enemy here is..those swine with the (censored IC) and the (censored IC) that you can (censored IC) around in and get all (censored IC) and stuff.

You know who I'm talking about, yeah that's right. Let's all get back to hating the REAL group that you know we all want to hate, and leave poor Allanak and Tuluk alone.

[Vanth]

I can't be a love slave in Tuluk. Isn't that reason enough?

Actually you can, you just have to be an actual slave.  Which means you have to go through the clan imms.  That's all.

[Semper]

You know who I'm talking about, yeah that's right. Let's all get back to hating the REAL group that you know we all want to hate, and leave poor Allanak and Tuluk alone.

That's always what they want you to think. But -really-, the two god-kings are just abiding their time for the next HRPT (Highly Recommended PKing Time). 

[WarriorPoet]

The last time I played in Tuluk I played for a week, in the walls, and never, no not once, did I see someone give a meaty "FUCK YOU THEN." The whole 'subtlety' thing seems like it's just a mask for being pussies. Which is why they play up in Crybabyville. Jokes, Tuluk fans. Jokes.

Seriously, I prefer my conflict heated and hateful. I'm vulgar and blunt in reality, so I fit right in with Allanak. Tuluk's brand of 'conflict' doesn't turn me on.

And besides all that, the city's sprawling layout is shitty and irritating.

[Jingo]

I can't be a love slave in Tuluk. Isn't that reason enough?

Actually you can, you just have to be an actual slave.  Which means you have to go through the clan imms.  That's all.

Huh. I forgot.

[Rairen]

Most of my career in Tuluk has been spent bringing the grit, and I can tell you, there's plenty of room.  You've just got to resist becoming someone's tool and have some ambition of your own, not to mention a taste for getting drunk at a reasonable price.

QFT.  It isn't a place for the malleable.  Most characters will want you to be something, and if that doesn't get you, peer pressure via being around people of a certain RP will.  (Now, Allanak could have similiar pressures, but I've noticed it - or people caving to it - more in Tuluk.)

[Semper]

Just play someone of power in Tuluk and attract those kinds of players to you.

Problem almost solved.

[Doppelganger]

The Sanctuary as Tuluki central meeting place is a root of prejudices. I think that it would be healthy to destroy it in the course of IC events.

[Rairen]

The Sanctuary as Tuluki central meeting place is a root of prejudices. I think that it would be healthy to destroy it in the course of IC events.

Well, half-true.  It promotes a quality of RP, yes, as a central meeting place, but the same problems would exist despite it:

1.  People have to play the characters you want to see.
2.  People have to be stubborn in the face of 'societal' pressure to continue to play them.

These things are independent of the Sanctuary's existence.

[Bogre]

I have really only played one true (i.e. non-rinther) southerner.

But a whole lotta Tulukis.

[Fathi]

I've had some pretty enjoyable times in Tuluk, but I'm going to be honest here. A lot of people aren't gonna like what I have to say and I don't really care, because it's one person's opinion and I'm sure anyone who disagrees with me has perfectly valid reasons.

Tuluk's culture cannot function as intended with our game as it currently is. Unless some changes are made or we suddenly double in weekly logins, it will always be somewhat broken, in my eyes.

There are too many factions that need to be adequately (if not always equally) represented for the Tuluki system to work, on an OOC level. I have played in Tuluk quite a bit over the span of the last few years, and never once have I played there and gotten the impression that things were functioning as they should.

Tuluk has suffered from serious droughts of Chosen, Faithful, commoners, GMH representatives, bards, or sneakies, or more than one of these groups every time I've played there. Yes, I'm aware these same droughts happen in Allanak just as often, but I would argue that Allanak suffers less when these lapses in certain roles occur because Allanak wasn't designed to require all these different roles to be fully culturally fleshed out and functional.

Again, opinion here, I'm not stating this as fact, but I've always found it hard to motivate myself in Tuluk because every time I'm playing there, something essential to my role always seems to be missing, be it partisans to take or bards to hire or templars to purchase certain culturally necessary things from. Staff have stepped into these empty roles in the past and helped my characters out, but I don't think a political hierarchy that's dependent on immortals filling some of its major PC-level roles is a terribly functional one.

This doesn't mean I've not had fun in Tuluk or that I'm never going to play there again... but that's my take on why I'm discouraged from doing so.

/soapbox

[ibusoe]

Here's how I personally think about it:

Tuluk=Ancient Greece(art thriving, but still plots and backstabbing, but that's not the main focus that's in the history books)

Allanak=Ancient Rome(Let's kill everyone who gets in our way and shove people into the arena just to watch them die! WEE!!!)


Did I miss anything?

I like your analogy.  I often think of Tuluk as being like New Orleans.  On the surface, everyone smiles, everyone is welcomed and folks from a bunch of different cultures are able to commune together to enjoy some good (jazz?  bard?) music and laugh away their troubles.  But it's not too hard to find the corruption and the seediness if you bother to dig for it.

[Malken]

Yes, I'll post something serious for once and I'll agree with Fathi.

There's not enough players on Armageddon to make Tuluk work the way it's supposed to work, no matter how hard we try. It needs to be changed.

There's always a missing link somewhere, the chain is always broken SOMEWHERE.. Either there's too many Chosens, not enough Chosens, too many Faithfuls
and no Chosens, or not enough Faithfuls and too many Chosens, there's always something missing..

Also, it's nearly impossible to play a criminal role AND be social.. There's not enough elves to begin with.. There's always one elf PC popping in, then, whenever
a crime happens, no matter what crime it is, that elf will end up being blamed.

Heck, it's almost the same with humans.. A while ago, I was playing in the militia, and my mate was a young pickpocket.. She got caught once, I think, and for
the rest of that PC's life, each time a crime was comitted, no matter what crime it was, you could always count on the whole militia looking for her first. Heck,
just for being her mate, it felt like I was sleeping with the biggest crime boss of Tuluk.

It's nice that we have UT, but I have a feeling that UT players will be forced to stick with UT players.. Last time I played in Tuluk, I saw a few city elves, which
makes me happy, but I bet all these city elves are dead now.

Allanak works with a low playerbase because you always have a bunch of shady characters around, Tuluk, it's always one at a time..

Props to those two characters I've seen in the last six months actually being proud that they were assassins for hire, though, but, deep inside, I just feel like you
guys shot yourself in the foot to begin with. The playerbase isn't ready to accept that fact about Tuluk.

[Clearsighted]

Least Favorite:

#1, #2 #3: Any noble house in Tuluk

(Note: I tend to stay completely ignorant of political things up north from an OOC perspective so I can maintain my purity.  I can't even name the noble houses in Tuluk.)

Sorry to pick on DustMight--their comment was just the most recent one, and this is not directed as a criticism against one player.

I realize that some of you don't like the upper-class social scene in Tuluk, and that's fine.  But I think that a real disservice is being done to Tuluk by the (sometimes cyclical) lack of rough-and-tumble characters there.

There is plenty of room in Tuluk (literally, heh) for characters who never step foot into the Sanctuary, don't get rich, and live hardscrabble lives where they rarely see a noble or a bard. 
*The Warrens are IMO a great place for well-played rogue classes, even if you never visit the other quarters of the city. 
*There is Byn presence in Tuluk when there is enough player interest to sustain it. 
*There are menial 'jobs' you can do to stay outside the noble employment/partisan system, if you really feel the need to avoid it. 
*There are coded rooftops in some places. 
*You can't play a hated known magicker there, but on the other hand you can play a desperate spice addict.
*Hunting can be easily as dangerous as it is around Allanak. There are mean humanoid NPCs (of 3 different races) who will defend their nearby territories, and bahamets come much closer to Tuluk than mekillots do to Allanak.
*You can play someone who couldn't afford to eat in Allanak post-RSE's closure, and is therefore an Allanaki refugee in Tuluk.

There are certainly other options besides these, but my general gist is that nobles, merchants, and bards are not all of Tuluk; and if you let them be all of Tuluk then you are the reason for that perception.

Tuluk isn't as bad as I once thought it was. I managed to go about five RL months without having much to do with a single noble or bard, and living a very rough and tumble lifestyle. I think however, it would have been much less fun, if I had been playing a role that required spending much time in the Sanctuary, or around those that frequented it.

But it is perfectly possible to live a rough existence and avoid that stuff. Mostly. Sorta.

[hyzhenhok]

When I was starting out, my impression was that Tuluk was much larger--and emptier--than Allanak. My first (and so far only) Tuluki character saw one or two other PCs in the Sanctuary, and none in any of the others, and unfortunately he wasn't the type that really would have belonged in the Sanctuary. In Allanak, all of the main taverns are within a few rooms of each other, and it's easy to find other PCs even if you don't hang out in the same establishment. I think Tuluk would benefit from some changes to attempt to make it feel more densely populated.

It also didn't help that I had intended that character to join the Byn, but I didn't know at the time that the Byn's activity up north is intermittent. I didn't truly get the hang of Allanak until I got a character into a clan that could show me the ropes, but it seemed to me while I was in Tuluk that the clan choices are less obvious than they are in Allanak, which makes it more difficult for new players.

[SMuz]

I like both. My character doesn't, though. Newbie hunting's easier up north. Jobs pay more in the south.  You can be a partisan up north; you could be a Bynner down south. My experience has been fairly fine both sides, but never had a character in Tuluk for more than 7 days. I do like that the characters up north are nicer; I'm not one for all those rude, bully characters.

[Qzzrbl]

Like it's more harshness for the sake of harshness than harshness for realism.

Replace "Harshness" with "Classy" "Refined" and "Subtle", and you've got my general attitude of topside Tuluk.

[jhunter]

I don't hate either of the major cities. In some ways, I actually enjoy playing in Tuluk more than 'Nak when there's enough pc activity there.

[Riev]

I'm forced to like Tuluk, because thats where I am right now. However, I started here because I told myself "I -will- have a long-lived character in Tuluk that doesn necessarily clad himself in silk and do nothing but gossip all day" so guess what? I fucking DON'T.

As Gimf said, there is a lot of pressure to be all uppity in Tuluk, I feel, but there is DEFINITELY a place for people that aren't. I'm sick of 'Rinthers and UT people coming up to PK or NPC spam, and then go back into their depths. I personally enjoy having 'gritty' types, people that love spice so much they actually SHARE, or hunters that come back talking about their kills.

I also love Allanak, because I know how to survive down there, without just point Byn. There is a certain allure to Allanak that I absolutely love, but I definitely don't feel that the "veteran RPers" flock to Allanak more than any other place (besides, we all know the BEST RPers have PCs in the Gith tribes).

[jcljules]

I like both. My character doesn't, though. Newbie hunting's easier up north.

Heh. For a second I thought you meant hunting newbies.

[Synthesis]

I like both. My character doesn't, though. Newbie hunting's easier up north.

Heh. For a second I thought you meant hunting newbies.

That's definitely easier too.

[Morrolan]

I have never (that I remember) started a character in Tuluk.  I have, however, played characters there for weeks or months, at times.  My second Byn Sarge got his second stripe there, I believe.  I remember some character who joined suiciding by running away into the Grey Forest.  So I took the whole unit head-first in there to track them down.

And yes, we came out relatively unscathed.  Mostly by running away from everything that went bump in the night--at around knee-level.

So do I like Tuluk?  Well, I don't like political play, so for that reason I like neither 'Nak nor Tuluk.  But I do not believe that Tuluk is full of fluffy bunny huggers.

I actually find that I like the political style in Tuluk more.  I just find it easier to avoid getting involved in the South.

"Just give me a home,
"Where the mekillots roam..."

Morrolan

[Ourla]

I've played every one of my PCs except for one in Tuluk.  I think at this point, it's going to be hard to teach an old dog new tricks.  I love, love, love Tuluk, but I'm indifferent to Allanak because I just don't know much about it.

The constant OOC harping on the boards about hating this city or that gets extremely obnoxious sometimes, and it definitely colored my opinions as a newbie.

[Riev]

The constant OOC harping on the boards about hating this city or that gets extremely obnoxious sometimes, and it definitely colored my opinions as a newbie.

This is something that gets to me as well. I think a lot of the forum-savvy newbies actually read the forums for posts based on things like this, and if Tuluk is "a bunch of fluffy gortok lovers", then those are the types on newbie PCs it will see.

Again people. PLEASE play the same gritty character you would in Allanak. Just do it subtly*!


* - By this I mean, you can still be a gritty, barbarian freak, but just tone it down a notch. Do it in thinks, and feels. You have every right to "feel like you want to punch that haughty fuck in the collar bone", and then DO it if you're in the Tooth. FUCK I miss brawls.

[Melody]

Like it's more harshness for the sake of harshness than harshness for realism.

Replace "Harshness" with "Classy" "Refined" and "Subtle", and you've got my general attitude of topside Tuluk.

Allanak can be classy, refined, and subtle too. In fact, it means more because there is a sharp contrast. To me, Allanak has everything Tuluk has, throw in the easy to walk around layout. If I play for 2 hours, rushing from parading silks in Trader's to sneaky conspiracy with Guild to share a drink in Gaj with the Byner, I only have to spend 10 minutes overall on walking. If I do that in Tuluk... that's about 30 minutes spent in walking around the empty, big city. If I only have 1 hour to rp and to meet with my fellow conspirators.... Tek forbid. Half of the time would be spent in us walking around to meet at a middle ground somewhere.

Also, someone mentioned about the structure problem. There is never enough players in Tuluk to make it feel... full. It either lacks nobles, or merchants, or templars, or criminals, or bards, or several of them at the same time.

I have given Tuluk a chance. I think it is very beautifully designed and written. I also think it is very hard to rp in it if I have anything less than 20 hours playing time a week and I want the full rp package (politics, crimes, etc). Life is not easier in Tuluk icly, but it is a hell lot more convenient oocly in Allanak.

[elvenchipmunk]

Tuluk is big. It does not take 30 minutes to walk across it. I know you're exaggerating, but it's not as bad as you put it.

There are maybe 15 rooms between the Sanctuary and the Tembo's Tooth, and about 10 between the Sanctuary and Firestorm Pub. Any of these taverns to Under Tuluk (or at least to the Old Quarter) is twenty rooms max. At less than a couple seconds per room, I think it's safe to say that you will only be spending a few minutes walking, not an incredible amount of time.

You can parade in silks in the Sanctuary, spend a minute walking to the Tooth to talk with a Bynner, then spend maybe five or so minutes heading to Under Tuluk if you want to do some sneaky stuff. Sure, if you want to shop in the Poet's Circle it's a bit of a walk, but still, I don't think time spent walking is a valid argument. And the taverns are all relatively nearby, so I don't think that's what spreads the playerbase out in Tuluk.

In my opinion, what spreads the player base out in Tuluk is that there are three major places to gather (Sanctuary, Tooth, Firestorm) where all of the different social classes are welcome. Or, at least the majority of the players of Tuluk (i.e. not nobles and Templars, usually) are allowed to gather. There is too much choice on where to hang out. I think having one upper-class tavern, like the Sanctuary, might be nice to have for nobles and Templars, then everyone else should be restricted to the other two (or one, in an ideal world). Oh, and also people holing themselves up in estates/compounds/apartments, but I think that also occurs in Nak.

This is just my observations, of course.

Oh, and also, if you want to start seeing brawls in the Tooth, then brawl some fuckers in the Tooth. Be the change and all that.

And one more thing, I do agree that the social structure is troublesome. Nobles/GMH members/Templars seem to juggle around a lot. There never seems to be a balance. And as for criminals, well. There are reasons that playing an unregistered criminal is terribly hard to do if you want to have any social life. To play this life, you need to play completely in Under Tuluk, then head up top only for your criminal deeds then head right back down. This is fine, and I don't mind doing this. The problem is again that Tuluk is spread out, so Under Tuluk does not often have many players. Hopefully the recent work will boost the numbers somewhat.

I personally do like playing in Tuluk more than the other cities, though.

[FantasyWriter]

I use to have an OOC allegiance to Alanak.  After playing a long lived PC in Tuluk (he was born, raised, and spend his first non-virtual year in Nak) for about 2 IC years, my OOC allegiance has slowly shifted to Tuluk, although at most I only play every third PC there so I don't know too much OOC about what is going on IC.

[Melody]

stuffs

But the ratio is right!

I don't mean the walk from Sanctuary to Firestorm. Try having a meeting in a shady apartment in Tuluk, then walk all the way to have another meeting in Bard's Circle for a more upscale meeting, then it is back to compound for food, then it is back to shady apartment for a meeting, then....

I don't know about others, but during some intense days (say, once or twice a week), I need to fit 5 meetings in 2 hours (all good people know you have to be at different places for different meetings with different people). A few minutes each way and that is like 1/4 of my online time gone.

It is not so bad. It is bad compared to Allanak. Sure, when it is off peak and I am bored, I don't mind wandering endlessly and aimlessly. But oftimes, it is very inconvenient when you know someone vital to a plot is on, and you MUST talk with them, and they can only be online for 20 minutes, and the Way just won't do, and you are tea sipping while they logged on at the Tooth.... and have this happen every day.

Though at times it is worse in Allanak. The gate opening and closing time can delay meetings for up to 40 minutes.

[zanthalandreams]

I love, love, love Tuluk, but I'm indifferent to Allanak because I just don't know much about it.

I only moderately understand the social dynamic of Chosens and Faithfuls, because I've never really cared to play in that circle.  What I love about Tuluk usually happens outside of the city itself.   Inside the city - I don't hate it, but I don't spend much time in the few areas where everyone gets to play dress-up and talk about the next fab party.  My favorite parts are a little more out of the way to that scene.

What I love most about Tuluk:

The m'f'ing Tembo's Tooth.   (when there isn't a scene party happening)
Freil's
The surrounding wildlands 
 

[SMuz]

Yeah, honestly, I'm not too fond of the Tuluk layout either. Actually, I don't like the layout of either of the city-states, though Luir's Outpost and Red Storm seem nice and simple enough for me. Both can be a bitch to go shopping in, unless you've already memorized with stores buy and sell which item; and it's even more annoying with the movement delay. Tuluk is also a bit more of a bitch because I know there's two 'zones' you can sell things and both are fairly far away from each other or so it feels. And all those taverns scattered around the place seems to thin out the tavern-visiting populace.

Though, I feel that some of you are pressing it a bit far with the stereotypes. You can be a harsh jerk in Tuluk (just not too mean) and you can be fancy-pants noble in Allanak (just not soft). There are also subtlenesses in the south and direct arguing going on in the north. I'm not OOCly inclined towards either, so that makes me happy on both ends

[Cutthroat]

I don't know if the amount of taverns is really a problem. People who are going to go to a tavern to tavern-sit in Tuluk in the first place tend to gravitate towards the Sanctuary anyway. If people go to the others, it's generally because there's something there to buy or do that you can't at the Sanc.

The layout of Tuluk isn't terrible. It's learnable. There's thirteen rooms or so between the Gaj and the Trader's, and something like sixteen rooms between the Sanctuary and Tooth, probably the two most visited taverns. Not bad at all. Becoming completely lost while walking around Tuluk is hard to do, once you've been around there for a few hours. Sure, the trek from the Ghaati to the Tooth might be pretty long, but the convenient thing about tavern-sitting in the Sanctuary is that you can go where you need to go, no matter where you need to go, in a reasonable amount of time.

And it's definitely possible to be "gritty" in Tuluk. It's possible to not get involved in the political scene if you so desire. It's fair to say that a lot of Tuluki RP revolves around that, but it's still possible to not get involved and have fun at the same time. Just as it is in Allanak.

[Qzzrbl]

* - By this I mean, you can still be a gritty, barbarian freak, but just tone it down a notch. Do it in thinks, and feels. You have every right to "feel like you want to punch that haughty fuck in the collar bone", and then DO it if you're in the Tooth. FUCK I miss brawls.

Last time I did this in Tuluk, I got thrown out of the city.

You read that right, they threw my character's drunk happy ass right out on North road, a little ways outside the gates.

And this was before he could even throw a punch, he was just drunk and talking shit.

-shrug-

[Yokunama]

I use to have an OOC allegiance to Alanak.  After playing a long lived PC in Tuluk (he was born, raised, and spend his first non-virtual year in Nak) for about 2 IC years, my OOC allegiance has slowly shifted to Tuluk, although at most I only play every third PC there so I don't know too much OOC about what is going on IC.

[Bogre]

I use to have an OOC allegiance to Alanak.  After playing a long lived PC in Tuluk (he was born, raised, and spend his first non-virtual year in Nak) for about 2 IC years, my OOC allegiance has slowly shifted to Tuluk, although at most I only play every third PC there so I don't know too much OOC about what is going on IC.

I'm exactly the opposite.

[zanthalandreams]

You know, it feels like a pretty decent mix posting here.  The game does offer quite a bit for the different styles and enjoyments of players.  I don't dig on the silks and mixers scene, but I'm glad it is there - if only to give my dusty, stained wasterunner someone to sneer at.  Maybe it is just a GDB thing where you have to bash Tuluk to be one of the cool kids? 

[Bogre]

I personally think there are all types- there are people who like playing grebbers, nobles, warriors, criminals, crafters, mages, north/south/tribal whatever. And then there are people who like to mix it all up. I think a lot of the Tuluki 'hate' is joking...but I can see where there are large gaps in what Tuluk could be doing.

That's not to say that it isn't rocking. I feel the Chosen system of governance and partisan ship works well, undertuluk is growing, and the templars and militia are all good.There's just a lower of middling 'normal' types, the grebbers and such that are all over Allanak, at least in my opinion.

I dunno. There is a new awesome flavor to Tuluk, i'd def. recommend trying it out if its been a while.

[My 2 sids]

He's right, lots of things don't make sense in Tuluk.

This.

My biggest problem is OOC vs. IC.

ICly I know there are supposed to be a lot of different "types" of characters (including the gritty and artistic).  But, OOCly all I hear about is _one_ type.  So, I end up feeling like I'm doing something wrong if I create a PC in Tuluk who is not political.   

So, although I can sure create an art-loving, clay-digging, hunter -- OOCly I know there isn't going to be anyone in the bars and any friendship with other PCs will be "I scratch your back, you scratch mine" and all the IMMs focus on political PCs (including all the emphasis placed on partisan roles/ clan roles/ thief roles as being political)

[Rairen]

Maybe it is just a GDB thing where you have to bash Tuluk to be one of the cool kids? 

Pretty much.  When I started, the rhetoric was much harsher (and, yes, colored my perceptions of the city - but in hindsight made me want to work a little harder to figure it out, so thanks, early Tuluk-bashers).  If you look at the quality of the players above who like playing there or who have constructive criticism for it, things're fine.  It's almost split fifty-fifty with regards to preference.

My biggest problem is OOC vs. IC.

ICly I know there are supposed to be a lot of different "types" of characters (including the gritty and artistic).  But, OOCly all I hear about is _one_ type.  So, I end up feeling like I'm doing something wrong if I create a PC in Tuluk who is not political.  

I only dabble in the OOC communities (and usually because I have to or because my boyfriend wants me to be more accessable to folks) so I'm not an expert in this, but this still could apply: Tuluk is not a place for the malleable.  Everyone will have an opinion on who you should be, IC and OOC. That pressure to be 'normal' will continue unless you push through it with the character, assuming the guy lives long enough to do so. (Secret challenge #3 with Tuluk: character lifespans preclude interesting plots).

It was a struggle when I started a serious Tuluki character.  I felt like I spent the first year playing here earning my right to exist.    I'm pathologically patient, but I could easily see it turning someone off.   That said, I don't know what could be done to change that pressure.  ICly, the culture lends itself to it, while OOCly, we're all a bunch of prima donnas, anyway.  When the two combine, the pressure to play a specific character can become oppressive.

[deviant storm]

Forgive this bit of silliness, but to me both cities have their strengths and weaknesses. They're just different. Different is good. A black city, a wite city...just like a chessboard.



One night in Tuluk and the world's your spice brick,
The bars are many but the drinks ain't free.
You'll find a bard in their circles right quick,
And if you're lucky than the bard's a she.
I can feel a dancer sliding up to me.

                       And for Allanak:

One night in the Black makes the hard man humble,
Not much between despair and ecstasy.
One night in Allanak and the tough guys tumble,
Can't be too careful with your company.
I can feel a 'rinthi walking next to me.


Sorry about the silly. And for butchering the song. Back to your serious discussion here. I'm off to bed.

[a strange shadow]

Oh god I love that song.

[X-D]

I like Tuluk.

I like Allanak.

When I play in Tuluk I rag on allanak.

When I play in allanak I rag on Tuluk.

Isn't that what most people do?

When Vanth started this thread I was like Huh? Whats this about?
Always considered the back and forth harping on tuluk and allanak to be basic good natured rivalry. Since that is all I ever did.

Oh, and I don't think Tuluk is too big, I think Allanak is too small.

[jhunter]

Oh, and I don't think Tuluk is too big, I think Allanak is too small.

I've often thought this myself.

[Inix77]

Love Tuluk. My best times on Arm have been in Tuluk, I just can't get used to Allanak. I've traveled between the cities and had one character based in Allanak (Bynner), and I just couldn't get used to it. I think I'm just used to Tuluk that's why I love it, but isn't that true for all of us?

[DustMight]

Maybe it is just a GDB thing where you have to bash Tuluk to be one of the cool kids? 

Pretty much. 

That's really minimizing the criticism leveled at the city and not fair to the arguments presented against Tuluk. 

[Bogre]

Getting from the commoner's plaza to the merchant and noble houses in Allanak is really long, too. The bars in both cities are not that far away from each other, except for a couple in Tuluk.