The player prejudice against Tuluk

[tortall]

Here's how I personally think about it:

Tuluk=Ancient Greece(art thriving, but still plots and backstabbing, but that's not the main focus that's in the history books)

Allanak=Ancient Rome(Let's kill everyone who gets in our way and shove people into the arena just to watch them die! WEE!!!)


Did I miss anything?

[Yam]

Tuluk=Ancient Greece(art thriving, but still plots and backstabbing, but that's not the main focus that's in the history books) AND ALSO THE BUTTSEX

[Mood]

I don't dislike Tuluk... it's just all those damned Tulukis that get to me. To be more specific, the silky, wine-sipping hunter types.

[Gimfalisette]

To be more specific, the silky, wine-sipping hunter types.

There is, unfortunately, a lot of pressure in Tuluk for everyone to be this type. I've played more than one Tuluki PC (or PC that ended up in Tuluk) who got crap from the Tuluki pbase (especially nobles, templars, and GMH family) for being gritty-ish. And by "crap" I mean lectures, gossip, and disciplinary measures.

Now, I do think gritty PCs should hang out more often at the Tooth or the Pub or the tavern in the tribal market, and less often at the Sanc or the Ghaati, but...there should be plenty of room for those gritty PCs. Plenty.

[Dalmeth]

Most of my career in Tuluk has been spent bringing the grit, and I can tell you, there's plenty of room.  You've just got to resist becoming someone's tool and have some ambition of your own, not to mention a taste for getting drunk at a reasonable price.

[Semper]

If there was a complaint against Tuluk, I'd say it would be it's layout. The very manner in which the city-state is set up divides the playerbase.

Tribals have the tribal marketplace and their own tavern. Bards have their tavern, -way- out of the way. Merchants and their retinue have their tavern in Friel's. And the dingier types have their tavern near the Warrens. The Sanctuary is the central tavern, where everyone out of those taverns can come and socialize, thus called the "Sanctuary" and just by stepping into the tavern you get a feel for which kinds of individuals visit there. Thus to fit into the crowd, you need to be dressed semi-casual.

To be more specific, the silky, wine-sipping hunter types.

As Gimfalisette mentioned, there's a degree of pressure (or inclination?) to have characters fit into this category. As a commoner, you get to wear silks (otherwise limited to Nobles in the south), you get to walk in higher social circles (if successful), while still having the freedom to hunt and craft and all the perks to being a commoner.

And honestly, there's nothing wrong with this. Tuluki culture allows for these kinds of commoners, which is why such character concepts may be attracted there. What should be happening should still be the subtlety and political backstabbing that happens beneath the surface. When that's lost, what you have left really are tree-hugging, ass-kissing Tuluki's which deserve to be called such.

[Lizzie]

I think Vanth created this post to distract us from remembering who the REAL enemy here is..those swine with the (censored IC) and the (censored IC) that you can (censored IC) around in and get all (censored IC) and stuff.

You know who I'm talking about, yeah that's right. Let's all get back to hating the REAL group that you know we all want to hate, and leave poor Allanak and Tuluk alone.

[Vanth]

I can't be a love slave in Tuluk. Isn't that reason enough?

Actually you can, you just have to be an actual slave.  Which means you have to go through the clan imms.  That's all.

[Semper]

You know who I'm talking about, yeah that's right. Let's all get back to hating the REAL group that you know we all want to hate, and leave poor Allanak and Tuluk alone.

That's always what they want you to think. But -really-, the two god-kings are just abiding their time for the next HRPT (Highly Recommended PKing Time). 

[WarriorPoet]

The last time I played in Tuluk I played for a week, in the walls, and never, no not once, did I see someone give a meaty "FUCK YOU THEN." The whole 'subtlety' thing seems like it's just a mask for being pussies. Which is why they play up in Crybabyville. Jokes, Tuluk fans. Jokes.

Seriously, I prefer my conflict heated and hateful. I'm vulgar and blunt in reality, so I fit right in with Allanak. Tuluk's brand of 'conflict' doesn't turn me on.

And besides all that, the city's sprawling layout is shitty and irritating.

[Jingo]

I can't be a love slave in Tuluk. Isn't that reason enough?

Actually you can, you just have to be an actual slave.  Which means you have to go through the clan imms.  That's all.

Huh. I forgot.

[Rairen]

Most of my career in Tuluk has been spent bringing the grit, and I can tell you, there's plenty of room.  You've just got to resist becoming someone's tool and have some ambition of your own, not to mention a taste for getting drunk at a reasonable price.

QFT.  It isn't a place for the malleable.  Most characters will want you to be something, and if that doesn't get you, peer pressure via being around people of a certain RP will.  (Now, Allanak could have similiar pressures, but I've noticed it - or people caving to it - more in Tuluk.)

[Semper]

Just play someone of power in Tuluk and attract those kinds of players to you.

Problem almost solved.

[Doppelganger]

The Sanctuary as Tuluki central meeting place is a root of prejudices. I think that it would be healthy to destroy it in the course of IC events.

[Rairen]

The Sanctuary as Tuluki central meeting place is a root of prejudices. I think that it would be healthy to destroy it in the course of IC events.

Well, half-true.  It promotes a quality of RP, yes, as a central meeting place, but the same problems would exist despite it:

1.  People have to play the characters you want to see.
2.  People have to be stubborn in the face of 'societal' pressure to continue to play them.

These things are independent of the Sanctuary's existence.

[Bogre]

I have really only played one true (i.e. non-rinther) southerner.

But a whole lotta Tulukis.

[Fathi]

I've had some pretty enjoyable times in Tuluk, but I'm going to be honest here. A lot of people aren't gonna like what I have to say and I don't really care, because it's one person's opinion and I'm sure anyone who disagrees with me has perfectly valid reasons.

Tuluk's culture cannot function as intended with our game as it currently is. Unless some changes are made or we suddenly double in weekly logins, it will always be somewhat broken, in my eyes.

There are too many factions that need to be adequately (if not always equally) represented for the Tuluki system to work, on an OOC level. I have played in Tuluk quite a bit over the span of the last few years, and never once have I played there and gotten the impression that things were functioning as they should.

Tuluk has suffered from serious droughts of Chosen, Faithful, commoners, GMH representatives, bards, or sneakies, or more than one of these groups every time I've played there. Yes, I'm aware these same droughts happen in Allanak just as often, but I would argue that Allanak suffers less when these lapses in certain roles occur because Allanak wasn't designed to require all these different roles to be fully culturally fleshed out and functional.

Again, opinion here, I'm not stating this as fact, but I've always found it hard to motivate myself in Tuluk because every time I'm playing there, something essential to my role always seems to be missing, be it partisans to take or bards to hire or templars to purchase certain culturally necessary things from. Staff have stepped into these empty roles in the past and helped my characters out, but I don't think a political hierarchy that's dependent on immortals filling some of its major PC-level roles is a terribly functional one.

This doesn't mean I've not had fun in Tuluk or that I'm never going to play there again... but that's my take on why I'm discouraged from doing so.

/soapbox

[ibusoe]

Here's how I personally think about it:

Tuluk=Ancient Greece(art thriving, but still plots and backstabbing, but that's not the main focus that's in the history books)

Allanak=Ancient Rome(Let's kill everyone who gets in our way and shove people into the arena just to watch them die! WEE!!!)


Did I miss anything?

I like your analogy.  I often think of Tuluk as being like New Orleans.  On the surface, everyone smiles, everyone is welcomed and folks from a bunch of different cultures are able to commune together to enjoy some good (jazz?  bard?) music and laugh away their troubles.  But it's not too hard to find the corruption and the seediness if you bother to dig for it.

[Malken]

Yes, I'll post something serious for once and I'll agree with Fathi.

There's not enough players on Armageddon to make Tuluk work the way it's supposed to work, no matter how hard we try. It needs to be changed.

There's always a missing link somewhere, the chain is always broken SOMEWHERE.. Either there's too many Chosens, not enough Chosens, too many Faithfuls
and no Chosens, or not enough Faithfuls and too many Chosens, there's always something missing..

Also, it's nearly impossible to play a criminal role AND be social.. There's not enough elves to begin with.. There's always one elf PC popping in, then, whenever
a crime happens, no matter what crime it is, that elf will end up being blamed.

Heck, it's almost the same with humans.. A while ago, I was playing in the militia, and my mate was a young pickpocket.. She got caught once, I think, and for
the rest of that PC's life, each time a crime was comitted, no matter what crime it was, you could always count on the whole militia looking for her first. Heck,
just for being her mate, it felt like I was sleeping with the biggest crime boss of Tuluk.

It's nice that we have UT, but I have a feeling that UT players will be forced to stick with UT players.. Last time I played in Tuluk, I saw a few city elves, which
makes me happy, but I bet all these city elves are dead now.

Allanak works with a low playerbase because you always have a bunch of shady characters around, Tuluk, it's always one at a time..

Props to those two characters I've seen in the last six months actually being proud that they were assassins for hire, though, but, deep inside, I just feel like you
guys shot yourself in the foot to begin with. The playerbase isn't ready to accept that fact about Tuluk.

[Clearsighted]

Least Favorite:

#1, #2 #3: Any noble house in Tuluk

(Note: I tend to stay completely ignorant of political things up north from an OOC perspective so I can maintain my purity.  I can't even name the noble houses in Tuluk.)

Sorry to pick on DustMight--their comment was just the most recent one, and this is not directed as a criticism against one player.

I realize that some of you don't like the upper-class social scene in Tuluk, and that's fine.  But I think that a real disservice is being done to Tuluk by the (sometimes cyclical) lack of rough-and-tumble characters there.

There is plenty of room in Tuluk (literally, heh) for characters who never step foot into the Sanctuary, don't get rich, and live hardscrabble lives where they rarely see a noble or a bard. 
*The Warrens are IMO a great place for well-played rogue classes, even if you never visit the other quarters of the city. 
*There is Byn presence in Tuluk when there is enough player interest to sustain it. 
*There are menial 'jobs' you can do to stay outside the noble employment/partisan system, if you really feel the need to avoid it. 
*There are coded rooftops in some places. 
*You can't play a hated known magicker there, but on the other hand you can play a desperate spice addict.
*Hunting can be easily as dangerous as it is around Allanak. There are mean humanoid NPCs (of 3 different races) who will defend their nearby territories, and bahamets come much closer to Tuluk than mekillots do to Allanak.
*You can play someone who couldn't afford to eat in Allanak post-RSE's closure, and is therefore an Allanaki refugee in Tuluk.

There are certainly other options besides these, but my general gist is that nobles, merchants, and bards are not all of Tuluk; and if you let them be all of Tuluk then you are the reason for that perception.

Tuluk isn't as bad as I once thought it was. I managed to go about five RL months without having much to do with a single noble or bard, and living a very rough and tumble lifestyle. I think however, it would have been much less fun, if I had been playing a role that required spending much time in the Sanctuary, or around those that frequented it.

But it is perfectly possible to live a rough existence and avoid that stuff. Mostly. Sorta.

[hyzhenhok]

When I was starting out, my impression was that Tuluk was much larger--and emptier--than Allanak. My first (and so far only) Tuluki character saw one or two other PCs in the Sanctuary, and none in any of the others, and unfortunately he wasn't the type that really would have belonged in the Sanctuary. In Allanak, all of the main taverns are within a few rooms of each other, and it's easy to find other PCs even if you don't hang out in the same establishment. I think Tuluk would benefit from some changes to attempt to make it feel more densely populated.

It also didn't help that I had intended that character to join the Byn, but I didn't know at the time that the Byn's activity up north is intermittent. I didn't truly get the hang of Allanak until I got a character into a clan that could show me the ropes, but it seemed to me while I was in Tuluk that the clan choices are less obvious than they are in Allanak, which makes it more difficult for new players.

[SMuz]

I like both. My character doesn't, though. Newbie hunting's easier up north. Jobs pay more in the south.  You can be a partisan up north; you could be a Bynner down south. My experience has been fairly fine both sides, but never had a character in Tuluk for more than 7 days. I do like that the characters up north are nicer; I'm not one for all those rude, bully characters.

[Qzzrbl]

Like it's more harshness for the sake of harshness than harshness for realism.

Replace "Harshness" with "Classy" "Refined" and "Subtle", and you've got my general attitude of topside Tuluk.

[jhunter]

I don't hate either of the major cities. In some ways, I actually enjoy playing in Tuluk more than 'Nak when there's enough pc activity there.

[Riev]

I'm forced to like Tuluk, because thats where I am right now. However, I started here because I told myself "I -will- have a long-lived character in Tuluk that doesn necessarily clad himself in silk and do nothing but gossip all day" so guess what? I fucking DON'T.

As Gimf said, there is a lot of pressure to be all uppity in Tuluk, I feel, but there is DEFINITELY a place for people that aren't. I'm sick of 'Rinthers and UT people coming up to PK or NPC spam, and then go back into their depths. I personally enjoy having 'gritty' types, people that love spice so much they actually SHARE, or hunters that come back talking about their kills.

I also love Allanak, because I know how to survive down there, without just point Byn. There is a certain allure to Allanak that I absolutely love, but I definitely don't feel that the "veteran RPers" flock to Allanak more than any other place (besides, we all know the BEST RPers have PCs in the Gith tribes).