Evil Overlords and Villains

[Semper]

http://www.eviloverlord.com/lists/overlord.html

I was reading for some archive posts and came across an issue that's been brought up a couple times and thought I'd revive it maybe. It's regarding "villains" in Arm, and the anti-heros to plots.

I know at least once, everyone's thought of making a raider or crime boss or spy, etc. Often times necessary for plots to be generated, these types of characters can be surprisingly difficult to find and keep alive. Plots are generated, PCs get involved, and there's a lot of potential for conflict until a templar and his minions comes and wipes out the group you've spent the last RL month building up. Some of these are due to personal blunders. (i.e. like killing NPCs every IG day to build up skills or breaking into every apartment and stealing everything.) Another reason is that it's difficult to really play the "villian" and keep alive long enough to become powerful enough to do much. Sometimes, it's just due to a lack of support (like other fellow criminals, etc.) to really get things going on a larger scale.

And once you do pull off a successful plot, you have the whole PC population of the Known World and their NPC and vNPC family members and friends after you.

The link to the top 100 list for evil overlords was there as an amusing site to visit when you have the spare time, but also a way to generate ideas and discussion on how to make these kinds of characters successful, and to have them be a positive (in a negative way IG) influence to the game world.

What are some tips experienced villains have about this? What can be improved? How do you keep them alive? In general, are villains even necessary to create conflict and add grittiness to the game?

[edited to add] While magickers and sorcerors are included in the role of 'villains', I'm speaking more of the mundane and general characters. It's easy for a sorceror to keep alive and gain skills enough to become powerful, but what about the assassin, or the pickpocket? They can't just disappear in a 'poof' of smoke or create multi-dimensional teleporation devices to escape and hide away. How do you turn these people into successful characters that bring conflict?

[Marauder Moe]

If you perceive your character as a villain, then your objective should not be to live a long time or to "win".  Villains are meant to be vanquished as part of a story.

The successful characters that others maybe perceive as a villain, though, will benefit from the same advice that keeps any type of character alive.

[WarriorPoet]

Most people seem to be all-or-nothing when it comes to villainy and banditry. It's either totally on the sly, which eliminates alot of possibilities for recruiting and ongoing conflict, or it's pure blood-and-guts, which means you're going to be drawing heat down on you really quickly. It's hard to keep the low profile needed to build yourself and your crew up when you're looting and killing.

Serpent was my favorite 'villain', though that's a poor word for him. Crimeboss might be more appropriate. But he didn't get powerful or influential by running hog-ass wild and stabbing everything in sight, though that was an option for him. Instead, he worked willingly and eagerly with his rivals for as long as it suited him and then betrayed them without hesitation. He would help out henchmen and friends and seemed genuinely concerned with their welfare, but would slaughter them with nor remorse once they'd lost their usefulnss. When the time came to kiss ass or kick it, he was up for either.

My two minute spiel on what I like to see in villainy.

[flurry]

I read a good resource for this called "The Villain's Handbook" and fortunately was able to find the link.

I read it a couple years ago, and one of the takeaway points that stuck with me is that a villain often works within the system. We've all seen the outlaw types that end up being chased down, and there's nothing wrong with that, either.  But I think there's a lot to be said for the type that's smack dab in the middle of society, and knows how to work all the right levers.

[BlackMagic0]

If you perceive your character as a villain, then your objective should not be to live a long time or to "win".  Villains are meant to be vanquished as part of a story.

In any good movie or game the villain wins. Just is best. 

Some Good Stuff....

I second this... Seems we lack more of a mixture of types, just pure this or that. I agree.

[Thunkkin]

I think villains of this sort are rare because they require a rare combination:
- inclination to play a villain of this sort
- leadership skills and the available time that this requires
- in-depth knowledge of both social and coded aspects of the game

It's unlikely that many players at any one time will fulfill all three of these.  I'll also point out that this isn't a role that's easy to grow into because (it would seem to me) most mistakes are fatal.

[staggerlee]

Setting out to play a villain is to deny your character the depth they deserve.

Play a well rounded, deep, developed character, with power and goals.

Villains happen when people have their back against the wall or objectives that require stepping on people.  You don't burn a village in order to raise your kill count, you burn a village because they're sinful, and someone has to set an example to the rest of the world before they stray down the same path. It really is a tragedy that it had to be done.  Etc.

Certain personality traits of course raise your potential to be a villain.  Social isolation, ego, lust, or pretty much any emotion taken to an extreme.

Loss could be as good as hate to motivate a villain. Remember that villainy is a very subjective thing. One man's villain is another man's hero.
...but my favorite emotion is paranoia.  

Edit:  A perfect example of villainy:

1) Gather a room full of wealthy scientists, doctors, scholars and philathropists
2) Demand to know why only the poor should suffer from Malaria.
3) Release malaria infected mosquitoes.

You're motivated by concern for a disease and the socio-economic conditions that have nurtured it, but you're so wealthy, insane and detached from reality that you think up crazed, "villainous" schemes to draw attention to the problem.

[Thunkkin]

Edit:  A perfect example of villainy:

1) Gather a room full of wealthy scientists, doctors, scholars and philathropists
2) Demand to know why only the poor should suffer from Malaria.
3) Release malaria infected mosquitoes.

You're motivated by concern for a disease and the socio-economic conditions that have nurtured it, but you're so wealthy, insane and detached from reality that you think up crazed, "villainous" schemes to draw attention to the problem.

Then create an abacus that is distributed to every city state and tribe - but with its own system of counting so trade between abacus owners can only be conducted with YOUR abacus design.

[SMuz]

I'd make a good villain. I have that evil genius mentality. Never failed to stun someone who sees my plans - those facing my plans are probably even more surprised. And currently my dwarf's focus is in a strange web of sub-focuses, only half of which are biographied, all leading up to a master plan.. bet even the imms are at least amused with it

Anyway, the hardest part about being a villain is getting henchmen. And a base. A really smart villain could probably become a Byn Sergeant/Lieutenant, make some criminal contacts, and use his unit to perform devious deeds throughout the world. A villanous GMH merchant could monopolize trade and hire all those bored assassins (and that evil Byn unit) to take out his competition with his sacks of money. But indie villains are hard to make because of the clan rules. I don't think building an evil tower in the Salt Flats would be allowed

Problem here is that once you take that step into villany, someone is bound to fight you. And that someone has been grinding up his stats for 50 days for a chance to fight someone like you. I have a good idea of the good guys' PC military power in Allanak alone and it is f-ing scary. All of them together is enough to take down two mekillots and live, and no trouble at all taking down ten 5 day warriors. If you piss off both city-states, don't expect to live a RL week after that.

Here's my suggestions to creating a villain:
1. Don't start as a villain. You need to grind up your skills first. And grind up some military/political contacts too. Better to be a good law-abiding citizen, then slowly turn evil once you realize that you're powerful enough. Power corrupts, so it's a good IC reason. If you're that unstoppable militia lieutenant who could take down a fully armored Sergeant of some other clan using only a training club, you're ready. I'd love to see some corrupt gemmers, isolated half-giant, or even a Templar go at it.

2. Most villains think they should be a bad-ass right at the start. That's stupid. You have to build your way slowly up to villany, just like in the rest of the game. Start small, do a few mischievous deeds, earn the respect of a few people, who'd be happy to join you. Start a gang or a minor raiding party, but you have to build yourself up. And have rules.

3. Henchmen. Ever played Mount & Blade? No matter how good you are, you can't fight an army solo. You need a bunch of weak, arrogant fools to take the blows for you, before you take down the enemy. Best choice are the wannabe villains. As a villain leader, teach your henchmen that they should be grateful for their position; you have to do the boring stuff like bribing templars, while they just sit there beating up your enemies. They don't even need to be paid - the loot is enough (unless you're a merchant villain, where you need to pay them a small every month or so). Promise for advancement is also good.. hire a right-hand man to handle minor things like recruitment and if you die, he's the boss, next guy becomes his right-hand man. But be useful enough that he doesn't kill you.

4. Watch out for potential recruits. Low class taverns are full of them. See those guys who start brawls? See that PC who insults a militia member or a noble? See all those guys who wear facewraps and cloaks and flip a finger when you tell to lower it. Those may be "bad guys". With only minor rewards, they'd be happy to join you. But don't be stupid and advertise on the board for someone to join your bandit group. And ask subtly, see if they're interested in earning a little 'sid with a new clan. Also, don't force them to quit their clans - it's useful having spies within a clan. Those who are disillusioned by their clan will often complain loudly at the bar. Be sure to listen.

5. Evil base. IMHO, this is the hardest part. You need a safe place where you can grind their skills - pickpocketing, backstabbing, slashing weapons, crafting, etc. If you have power within a clan, you can use it and abuse it... but the officers will notice if you do it too much. 'rinth is the safest place, but once you're found out, it's no trouble at all for the militia to trap you in there and send an army in. The wastes are great - far from civilization, and you can keep yourself well fed with a few rangers and a well. Just find a defensible location, like something that requires a small, enclosed space to be past through - great for ambushes and it makes siegers nervous. If you have 'gickers, all the better.

6. Your advantage in being a villain is that you're not restricted to social mores. Kill your enemies. Mercy off. The player should know better than to tangle with a villain. But don't overdo it. Overdoing evil is much like overhunting - it'll piss people off and you'll run out of prey. Take good care of your 'gickers, with proper training, your 'gickers will be much more powerful than the militia ones.

7. Have a 'non-villain' on your side. Someone who's being paid well, but low-profile enough to hang around the taverns for recruitment. He should look non-threatening enough to bring people out to the deserts.


Anyway, it's a slow time in the game. Now's the best time to gather all the bored players and start a raiding clan.. before you conquer some tribals, some small forts, and then.. a city-state!

[Ourla]

And currently my dwarf's focus is in a strange web of sub-focuses, only half of which are biographied, all leading up to a master plan.. bet even the imms are at least amused with it

I like where you're coming from, SMuz, but don't forget to refrain from posting anything about your current PCs or any PCs within the last RL year.

[a strange shadow]

Good villains are completely justified in their actions, in their own mind.

[Ampere]

Check out the signature.

Clearly evil overlords can have friends, enjoy art, and indulge in music --- mass murder, while unfortunate, is an efficient tool which can help us to cleanse the world---perhaps some, even most, are innocent, but they're a degenerate race, and this violence will be remembered by our children as the day our species took its first steps toward perfection.

[Sephiroto]

Those are some awesome and interesting comments, SMuz.

[Yokunama]

Why does everyone seem to think raiders, rogue magickers, and everything else criminal is considered 'evil'? I know 'evil' can reside in the milita units, merchant houses, and other organizations.

[Vessol]

Why does everyone seem to think raiders, rogue magickers, and everything else criminal is considered 'evil'? As far as I know, 'evil' can reside in the milita units, merchant houses, and other organizations.

Seriously, I've met more merchants that are more "evil" then most bandits or rabble.

[SMuz]

Why does everyone seem to think raiders, rogue magickers, and everything else criminal is considered 'evil'? As far as I know, 'evil' can reside in the milita units, merchant houses, and other organizations.

Pfft.. that part is obvious No fun (and not easy) killing militia units, templars, and merchants, though. You could only kill them sneakily. The warriors and rangers out there need something to fight; I'd be happy if someone were to start a raider organization

[Krath]

What Smuz Said is QFT.

I will edit and write my thoughts later as I am getting ready for work.

[Nyr]

Here are my suggestions for creating a villain:

1.  Always remember that you aren't playing a villain.  You are playing a fully-fleshed out character with goals, thoughts, and struggles just like every other character in the world.
2.  When a choice between decisions comes up for your character, make the selfish choice, and have good reasoning for making it.
3.  Let power corrupt your character.  Whether it be political, physical, magickal, or otherwise, don't take the path of integrity once your character has that power.
4.  Your character does not see himself or herself as a villain.

In my opinion, the mastermind evil roles are silly if they happen right out of the character generation gate.  The life choices a character makes on the path to becoming that evil overlord and mastermind--those are the things that make it worth it, and make the role more real and believable than some caricature of well-done evil from fantasy novels.

[Cutthroat]

Good villains are completely justified in their actions, in their own mind.

4.  Your character does not see himself or herself as a villain.

This is oh so important.

A person in their right mind who is doing something bad, and thinks they are doing something bad for the sake of being bad would stop.

A person who is doing something bad, and thinks they are doing it for the sake of others, or for profit, or to seek revenge for something petty, would continue. That is evil.

[zaraj]

Everyone is the hero of their own story.

[My 2 sids]

I'm not sure morality can be that individualized.

This is a very black and white society: from the moment one is born one is taught the very clear-cut rules about the morality of society, namely  hierarchy = good  and rebellion = bad      This is a cast system, anyone who does not fit into the system is going to have to somehow deal with the feeling of guilt knowing they are doing wrong, that they are doing evil against the system.

Secondly, consider the the make-up of an apologetic people.   Survival is good and these rules (no matter how terrible, no matter how unfair) is a key part of surviving.  A true villain then would be one who is against survival, one who brings about chaos to the system. 


   

[Marauder Moe]

What's a very black and white society?  Earth Western society?  Zalanthan society?  Tuluki society?

Also, as flurry said, many villains often work within the system.

[Yokunama]

Why does everyone seem to think raiders, rogue magickers, and everything else criminal is considered 'evil'? As far as I know, 'evil' can reside in the milita units, merchant houses, and other organizations.

Pfft.. that part is obvious No fun (and not easy) killing militia units, templars, and merchants, though. You could only kill them sneakily. The warriors and rangers out there need something to fight; I'd be happy if someone were to start a raider organization

Warriors and rangers can accomplish this. What mud are you playing? And you don't need to be sneaky. Theres more planning to it than sending "kill templar" through your prompt.

[RogueGunslinger]

While I agree that the best villains don't think of themselves as such. Sociopaths and sadists do exists, and can be equally as menacing, awesome, and evil. Though they don't tend to get so far.

[staggerlee]

While I agree that the best villains don't think of themselves as such. Sociopaths and sadists do exists, and can be equally as menacing, awesome, and evil. Though they don't tend to get so far.

Armageddon's game world is a totalitarian, racist, cruel, terrible place, where people with food and money usually get it at the expense of someone else, and the heirarchy is always looming down on you.

Everyone is in some sense a villain.

But some people just take it too far. And when they manage to break the law or disrupt the social order, they almost always get stomped. Often even looking like you could develop into a problem will get you stomped, that's the way the world is.

I mean, the way I see it, we can either have a happy, fun safe world with disney villains... or zalanthas.  I don't see much room for big, dark disney villains myself.