Sunback lizards are really, really slow.

[Good Gortok]

Sunback lizards are unbelievably slow. I tested it, and their walking speed is literally slower than a human character sneaking on foot in the wilderness. The movement delay for a walking sunback is approximately five seconds, more than twice as much as a war beetle's. It doesn't seem intentional to me, so I figured it was worth bringing up. Is there any reason or purpose to this that I've missed?

[Armaddict]

Not sure, used to piss me off too.

They're still worth using though.  Last I checked, they made up for it in other ways.  (And no, to all you old school people, I am not talking about anything combat related.)

[FantasyWriter]

They're still worth using though.  Last I checked, they made up for it in other ways. 

[Yokunama]

   In the wild, these long-necked lizards are scavengers and small-prey
hunters that appear to be more docile, or more intelligent, cousins of the
raptors. They are very maneuverable as mounts, but few have the strength,
raw quickness, or lasting power of a kank. But, being hunters by nature,
they tend to adapt better to mounted combat, the better trained among them
able to tactically utilize their heavy tails like a great whip. Desert
tribes may keep a few, but their appetites are large compared to their
overall usefulness, relative to kanks.

The helpfile needs to be updated, but I think it answers the question. If you are looking for speed, you always have the option of trying other mounts.

[musashi]

I wonder if that "better suited to mounted combat" translates into anything ... since the mounts typically don't ever actually attack anything other than their riders from time to time due to typos.

[Kronibas]

I wonder if that "better suited to mounted combat" translates into anything ...

I think it's making a reference to the fact that you once could type "pull reins" while riding a sunback and make it whip an enemy with its tail.  This feature was eventually done away with due to abuse, if I recall correctly.

[Angela Christine]

Yeah, I loved "pull reins".  If you weren't in combat when you used it, it would make the mount do an emote.  It depended on the mount, but you'd usually get something like rearing up or flashing eyes.  That was my favorite part.  It made me feel like I was the Lone Ranger.  "Hiho Silver, away!"     And then some kank buggering, code abusing assholes ruined it for everyone.   


It was also somewhat useful in combat.  Not overpowering, but a little something extra for the "combat trained" mounts.  It gave you an excuse to use mounted combat, instead of everyone dismounting at the first sign of trouble, which was nice if you were trying to be cavalry rather than infantry.  It also gave you an excuse to use an exotic combat mount, rather than just using a kank like everyone else.  It was separate from charging, because that requires a highly skilled rider, not a highly trained mount.  If you used the command on calm, passive mounts not trained for combat, they wouldn't do anything more deadly than wiggling their antenna.  You still had to be a good enough rider that you wouldn't simply fall off your mount in combat in order to use it effectively, a terrible rider wouldn't get the chance to use it.  But it was a nice perk for "good" riders that were not the kind of "expert" riders that can use charge and ride without using their hands.



The command seems like it probably was a factor in the "balancing" of the mounts that had it.  Once it was removed, it became really hard to justify using anything but kanks.     Charge doesn't do much to help with erdlu and sunbacks, because  despite their species ferocity they are relatively small mounts that aren't intrinsically good at trampling things.

[RogueGunslinger]

I don't get what the difference between spamming 'pull reins' and spamming 'kick' is.

[Angela Christine]

Well, if you spam pull reins they take a neat feature away from everyone.  If you spam kick they just cut off your legs.

[Cavaticus]

You probably shouldn't spam kick either.

You probably shouldn't spam anything.

[X-D]

Pull reins had no delay, and I do not think it ever missed. Some person/people not only figured it out but then abused it. Sure, the damage was small, but if somebody made a macro of "pull reins 50X".........

[Semper]

Someone idea this IG. 

[Clearsighted]

IMO, mounts should do auto-attacks in combat, much like certain bracers or gloves do, and have it depend on your riding. With nothing really to distinguish mounts beyond what they can carry (except in a one or two specific cases related to climbing), the removal of kanks just made everyone move to the mount with the next most stamina.

[Dar]

Could be other benefits to them ? higher stamina, better climb, higher strength for packed bags, whatever. Maybe there is a good side to them, that make sunbacks stand out from 'other' mounts. Personally ... I havent found any.

[Semper]

...based on the skill of the mount.  

So the longer you've been with the mount in combat situations, the better the mount will be, independent of your own riding skills. Of course, your own riding skills would be important.

[Synthesis]

The charge skill is basically the updated version of 'pull reins' anyway.

Although, I've seen some equally ridiculous shit with charge.

I think I saw someone on a war beetle trample a mekillot once. 

[deviant storm]

I've often wished the mounts had some sort of attack that went with their trample/charge coding, dependent on the mount. War beetles would pinch or bite with those wicked mandibles of theirs. Oxes would gore (they have those nice horns, why not make use of them?). Sunbacks could tailwhip on their own, if the rider was good enough with that particular skill. Inixes could headbutt. Or something along those lines.

[RogueGunslinger]

You probably shouldn't spam kick either.

You probably shouldn't spam anything.

My point was that the delay given to kick is there for a reason. And I assumed that it's to give a buffer and keep people from 'twinking' it, but now I'm guessing I was wrong.

Are the delays there to keep people from spamming? Or simply to give a representation of how long the action would take?


Sorry for the derail of the derail.

[Twilight]

With the changes to ride...

I'd like to see different modifiers to your character's ride skill based on which kind of mount you are on.  In the case of a sunback, it could give enough +ride that a normal, below average wisdom dwarf warrior or whatever could ride without using any hands.  A war beetle/inix might be harder to control in combat, and thus give less of a +ride.

[Clearsighted]

The charge skill is basically the updated version of 'pull reins' anyway.

Although, I've seen some equally ridiculous shit with charge.

I think I saw someone on a war beetle trample a mekillot once. 

There's nothing ridiculous about slamming a one ton+ beast into the single leg of a bigger beast to throw it off balance.

[Semper]

The charge skill is basically the updated version of 'pull reins' anyway.

Although, I've seen some equally ridiculous shit with charge.

I think I saw someone on a war beetle trample a mekillot once. 

There's nothing ridiculous about slamming a one ton+ beast into the single leg of a bigger beast to throw it off balance.

As long as it's role played accordingly...

[brytta.leofa]

As long as it's role played accordingly...

> say (whooping and hollering as ~beetle scrambles up %mekillot massive flank and careens down ^mekillot broad back) Get a-LONG li'l GORTOKS!
> change hands etwo ep (leaning down halfway out of the saddle to rake ~bastard across %mekillot back as ~beetle scuttles along)
> remove surmac [as ~beetle tumbles over %mekillot shoulder, miraculously landing rider-side up]
> es surmac [fanning it in the air]
Someone says, a little puff of dust rising where something seems to stir on the sunblasted flats, in an unfamiliar tongue,
  "Oyu rae neo rzayc hsotr-gle, kimosabe."

[Semper]

02/03/2009: War beetles now have echoes -- Raesanos

Hah. Hah. Hah.

[X-D]

Yes, and the first time mine did it I was like Woot!

[musashi]

The charge skill is basically the updated version of 'pull reins' anyway.

Although, I've seen some equally ridiculous shit with charge.

I think I saw someone on a war beetle trample a mekillot once. 

I used to charge things on an erdlu with one of my older characters; didn't matter if they were bigger or smaller I didn't think.

If they were small, I RP'ed as if the erdlu had literally trampled over them.

If they were big, I RP'ed as if the erdlu had slashed at one of their legs and ham-stringed them.

If they were REALLY big, I probably ran away.

[Synthesis]

The charge skill is basically the updated version of 'pull reins' anyway.

Although, I've seen some equally ridiculous shit with charge.

I think I saw someone on a war beetle trample a mekillot once. 

There's nothing ridiculous about slamming a one ton+ beast into the single leg of a bigger beast to throw it off balance.

I think you folks are underestimating exactly how large a mekillot is.

Mekillot                                                           (General)

   Gigantic behemoths, these lizards are many times the size of an inix, and
often where six inix were required to draw a given argosy, only one mekillot
suffices.

[Zalanthan]

I think you folks are underestimating exactly how large a mekillot is.

Not surprising, given how often inix are underestimated as well. 

Code Select Expand

> load catapult dwarf
You load the twinkish dwarf into your baobab mounting catapult.
> shoot inix
You fire the twinkish dwarf at an inix, landing him directly into the saddle!
An inix moves west, carrying the twinkish dwarf on its back.

[deviant storm]

Does anyone else think Chocobo Rush when someone tramples with an erdlu?

Or is it just me?

[a strange shadow]

NOW I sure do.

[Clearsighted]

The charge skill is basically the updated version of 'pull reins' anyway.

Although, I've seen some equally ridiculous shit with charge.

I think I saw someone on a war beetle trample a mekillot once. 

There's nothing ridiculous about slamming a one ton+ beast into the single leg of a bigger beast to throw it off balance.

I think you folks are underestimating exactly how large a mekillot is.

Mekillot                                                           (General)

   Gigantic behemoths, these lizards are many times the size of an inix, and
often where six inix were required to draw a given argosy, only one mekillot
suffices.

Sounds like they're roughly six times bigger.

[Synthesis]

Next time you're around an inix, size it up and multiply it by six, and you'll see my point.

[Twilight]

You probably have to do this as a half-giant, to get a real good sense of it.

[Synthesis]

You probably have to do this as a half-giant, to get a real good sense of it.

Inix are "quite a bit taller" and "quite a bit" heavier than half-giants.

HGs can be anywhere from just over 10 to just under 13 feet tall, and can weigh up to 100 ten-stone.

I suspect that puts inix anywhere from 15-20 feet tall, and from 150-200 ten-stone.

That would put a mekillot (if you accept the "6x" estimate) at 900-1200 ten-stone.  So 10-13 tons.

There's a reason you can load all your beetles on the argosy and the thing keeps moving, yeah?

[a strange shadow]

Height, for creatures like an inix, is more equivalent to length as well as height. There's no way to define length as well as height and weight, so both are rolled into one, I believe... which means that inix are still big and heavy, but not ridiculously tall, or humans and piddly dwarves would have probably looked elsewhere for mounts they didn't need a ladder to climb onto.

[FantasyWriter]

Height, for creatures like an inix, is more equivalent to length as well as height.

[Synthesis]

Height, for creatures like an inix, is more equivalent to length as well as height.

If anything, it being shorter and longer would make it -more- difficult for a beetle to knock it over.  Lower center of gravity and all that.

[Zalanthan]

Height, for creatures like an inix, is more equivalent to length as well as height. There's no way to define length as well as height and weight, so both are rolled into one, I believe.

While this may be true of the actual mechanics, looking at an inix in game reveals a description that says it is "thirteen cords long and over one hundred ten-stones" so its length is indisputably around sixteen feet, much of which is neck and tail.  The four stumpy legs and wide chitin shell lead me to imagine it as some sort of long-necked ankylosaur around six feet tall at the back that one would ride cross-legged like a camel rather than astride.  This helps me get past seeing shorter characters atop inix, but I've never actually seen anyone roleplay it this way.

[FantasyWriter]

[Angela Christine]

The command is supposed to take into account the mass of the mount and the thing being charged, so I imagine that erdlus trampelling mekillots is already suitably unusual.   


You don't literally have to knock it over, you just have to knock it off balance for a moment, giving it the opportunity to fall down.  Possibly a smaller beast could charge one of the mekillot's ankles at just the right moment, and if successful this could knock it's foot out from under it, causing it to fall down.  Perhaps part of the rider's contribution to the charge, the reason it is a skill and not merely a command, is knowing exactly where to hit various creatures to knock them off balance.  Once you know the sweet spot it is no more difficult than sinking several billiard balls with one shot.


The people who are good at charge are people who know a lot about riding various animals and looking after them.  By their nature they have probably have also done a lot of hunting and skinning.  It makes sense that a working knowledge of animal husbandry, animal behavior, and basic anatomy could help you pick the spot and the moment when you have the best chance of knocking a creature off balance.

[Eloran]

Give cuts to the hp level of the mounts in question based on the skill of their rush.

That might limit the potential for stupidity of a few people.

[Synthesis]

Stumble, maybe.  Fall flat on its face?  I think not.

The physics of the situation just doesn't add up.  Go try and ram yourself into an adult, alert cow some time.  I can pretty much guarantee that the outcome of that scenario will not be: cow falls over.

I think what's -far- more likely is that the encounter would be more like running your car into a brick wall.  Hope you had your seat belt on.

[Tallulah]

The inix in that picture looks more like I picture a sunlon to look, only bigger.  I always pictured inix to be quadrupeds.  I imagined mekillots to be even bigger than that, maybe that and a half.

[Gagula]

Stumble, maybe.  Fall flat on its face?  I think not.

The physics of the situation just doesn't add up.  Go try and ram yourself into an adult, alert cow some time.  I can pretty much guarantee that the outcome of that scenario will not be: cow falls over.

I think what's -far- more likely is that the encounter would be more like running your car into a brick wall.  Hope you had your seat belt on.

Maybe not fall FLAT on it's face, but a car vs. brick wall, i doubt.  I think what would happen is much like running your car into a water tower support beam....sure it hurt like hell, and because of the reinforced plating, the car's barely drivable, but it got the job done because the tower's now coming down on top of the bandits.

[Angela Christine]

That picture is of Darksun creatures.  Arm creatures are similar, but not necessarily the same.


Wait.  Look at that mek picture again.  Why the dickens is it armored on top?  Doesn't that imply that its ancestors were often attacked from above?     So either meks used to be much, much smaller, or there used to be lots of even taller things around? 

Stumble, maybe.  Fall flat on its face?  I think not.

The physics of the situation just doesn't add up.  Go try and ram yourself into an adult, alert cow some time.  I can pretty much guarantee that the outcome of that scenario will not be: cow falls over.

What if you hit the cow in the back of the knee?    People go cow tipping, so I imagine there must be some way a human can produce enough force to topple a cow, at least a cow that isn't alert.  Using charge (or bash) on an enormous animal doesn't have to mean that you are directing all that force at the center of the torso, you pretty much must be focusing your force on a soft spot or vulnerable joint for it to have any affect.


A lone guy charging a mekillot that is looking at him would be pretty dubious.  Then again, a lone guy that encounters a mekillot is almost certainly running in the other fucking direction as fast as he can.  I know I always do.     If there is a group that is deliberately in combat with a mekillot, then it becomes possible for some individuals to maneuver around, and act without the mekillot being aware of them.  Mekillots don't seem to be really clever, and most have no experience fighting humanoids, just salt worms and the occasional scrab.  Wait until the mekillot isn't paying attention to you, and has raised one of its feet leaving it off balance, then charge in and trample the soft spot between the toes on one of its other feet.  With luck it tries to pull back that foot too, leaving it dangerously off balance and maybe causing it to fall down.


Soft spots must exist, otherwise who the hell is killing these things?  Look at that thing, what are any combat commands going to do to it?  Are you going to bash and kick its toenails?  And what exactly is poking that hide with pointy sticks and rocks supposed to accomplish?  If a mouse attacks a cat, a sharpened toothpick isn't going to help him.  Humans fighting a huge dinosaur-like creature with stone age technology is going is pretty incredible no matter how you do it.  And the combat echos will probably be a little off, because generic combat echos just aren't going do it justice. 

[Synthesis]

1. Cow tipping is largely a myth.

2. There are things bigger than mekillots.

3. Magick.

[Clearsighted]

1. Cow tipping is largely a myth.

2. There are things bigger than mekillots.

3. Magick.

Fuck magick.

[X-D]

Cow tipping is not a myth...and quite entertaining.

Many animals are armored on top IRL because of the mating process..I'd imagine with a mek that might be a good reason.

Though, there are things bigger then meks.

[SMuz]

I could knock over a cow by charging into it with enough practice. It's not really about strength and weight, it's about how you use it. If you run at it flailing your hands, chances are you'll be the one knocked down.. as it should be.

Beetles are heavy, and can possibly move quite fast too. Imagine, say, a 8 kg object going at your leg. An inix would be more like a 25 kg object. Depending on the speed and angle, it could very well knock you down.

[Eloran]

But not a mekillot, dear sir.

[Doppelganger]

Wait.  Look at that mek picture again.  Why the dickens is it armored on top?  Doesn't that imply that its ancestors were often attacked from above?     So either meks used to be much, much smaller, or there used to be lots of even taller things around?

I imagine silt flyers would have no problems feeding off mek's back, if it was not armored. And then there are Whirans...

[Jingo]

I'd like sunbacks to get just a bit more love.

[Synthesis]

Yeah, beetles only weigh about 500 stone, too.

So that's half a ton, not a ton.

vs. 10-13 tons.  20-26 x the mass.

Totally implausible scenario.

[Gagula]

Yeah, beetles only weigh about 500 stone, too.

So that's half a ton, not a ton.

vs. 10-13 tons.  20-26 x the mass.

Totally implausible scenario.

Hmmm.....unless said beetle had a rocket pack......or a highly skilled rider.  After all, in Earth's own history, elephant fortresses were taken out by riders on horse back.....and that's fact, not fiction, so who's to say that a GAME couldn't oh, i don't know, say bend the rules a tad bit.

[Zalanthan]

After all, in Earth's own history, elephant fortresses were taken out by riders on horse back

Marshals of ancient battlefields were known to deploy lit war pigs against elephants, as cavalry were ineffective (as the Macedonians learned). I only mention it to bring the bizarre tactic the attention it deserves. 

[Synthesis]

Yeah, generalizing a tactic used against a generally docile herbivore to use against a ferocious beast that regularly feasts on worms with a diameter twice the height of your average human...probably not such a good idea.

An elephant might get spooked by a horse charging at it.  A mekillot thinks, "Hmm, dinner.  And I don't even have to chase it."

[Gagula]

Per chance.....but maybe all Mekillots have that secret desire to keep their nails clean of squished Beetles....lol