Spears

[Good Gortok]

Very few characters seem to use spears as their primary weapons. When they do, they tend to use them one-handed with a shield or secondary weapon. I personally believe that the spear should be one of the most common weapons in a world like Zalanthas, especially in less civilized areas, but this hasn't been the case in my experience. I think there's a few reasons for this:


> I don't remember ever seeing a spear that was codedly two-handed. Presumably, if they're all coded as one-handed weapons, wielding them etwo is less potent than using an equivalent weapon that is actually two-handed - similarly to a longsword vs. a two-handed sword. I may be wrong here, it just struck me as odd that over the course of many characters, I have been unable to find a spear with the "this is a two-handed weapon" tag. I've seen a few pikes and tridents, but those are different weapon classes. We could use some spears with corresponding coded advantages.

> Most spears are really boring. The majority are some variation of "a material-headed material spear" with few, expensive exceptions that you often need to order from merchant houses. Most weapon shops load with a wide range of swords, clubs and knives, but only one spear, if any at all. Given the choice between a wicked-edged bone scimitar, a razor-sharp obsidian tomahawk and an obsidian-headed wooden spear, I suspect few will choose the rather plain-looking spear if they haven't specifically decided to use that type of weapon.

> Spears don't seem very good. Any weapon can be powerful with a high enough skill level, but I've never noticed any inherent advantage to using a spear. This may be in part due to the fact that the two handed skill seems to need extensive training in order to be viable compared to other styles. There's also the fact that spears are generally sheathed on the back, making the use of a bow inconvenient and thus ruling out many of the character types who might otherwise favor the spear. Some spears can be sheathed on the belt, but I always found that really stupid. Maybe the "slung across back" location needs to be replaced by two "slung over shoulder"? On that note, it would be neat if shields were made "sheathable" onto that location.


I would really like spears to be more appealing, aesthetically and practically. I want to see them made the primary weapon of hunters and tribals, and part of military arsenals as well. Perhaps coded bonuses against wildlife? A bit of a bump to the weapon type? The two handed style doesn't seem to have caught on despite the recent revision, so maybe it wasn't sufficient? Please give your input.

[Clearsighted]

Probably a reason for this is that virtually no two-handed spears exist in the game. (Some restricted ones exist, but not like easily available halberds and voulges and two handed swords.

Two handed longspears, broadspears, etc, should be among the most common weapons in the game. Instead, they're very much under represented.

[Synthesis]

I've seen a few two-handed spears in game.

Definitely not common, though.

[X-D]

First, I do have to wonder if you have really paid attention to the game world. Spears and or other piercing weapons are the most common weapon types in use by NPCs, I'm betting there is a reason for that.

Through most of history IRL, spears are one handed weapons, mostly for throwing, but can easily be used two handed as well, this is a nice versatility. And might even carry over IG.  

Types, Lets face it, there is just so much dressing you can put on something that is, essentually a sharpened stick. True, they get more advanced then that, but in the end, it is a stick with a sharp end.

That being said, I believe there are over 30 different spear style items IG, some of them are really cool. But you might only see them if you find a crafter who has figured them out.

Most the hunter PCs I see, including my own prefer spears. This does not mean they will not use other weapons from time to time though.

And hey, watch 300, spear and shield is simply COOL.

Believe me, there are inherent advantages...and disadvantages to using a spear, same for the other weapon styles.

To clearsighted, Actually, unless you are hunting huge creatures that charge and cannot dodge easily, the big ass two handed spear or pike should be one of the least common weapons IG. I normaly argue against how easily PCs dodge most weapons, but for a ETWO only spear I would have to argue for a HUGE accuracy neg for using it on anything smaller then a HG.

And one more thing, have any of you ever trided to use a spear two handed IRL? It is HARD, even a big ass heavy boar spear is meant to be used 1 haned untill the boar is basicly held then a two handed shove for the killing blow.

[Good Gortok]

First, I do have to wonder if you have really paid attention to the game world. Spears and or other piercing weapons are the most common weapon types in use by NPCs, I'm betting there is a reason for that.

I don't know about that. Note that I'm talking about just spears, not the piercing weapons group, so the fact that many NPCs use daggers is utterly irrelevant. I don't remember any location in the game world where spears are prominent; city-state soliders don't use them, 'rinthers don't use them, most tribal NPCs don't even use them, and even gith are just as prone to sport various kinds of swords. And while this is just my own observation, I would estimate that nine out of ten combat-oriented PCs use a slashing, bludgeoning or chopping weapon and a shield, or dual-wield two such weapons. Short of the specialized weapon classes only available to very long-lived warriors, I would say that spears are the least used of all the common weapon types, among PCs and NPCs.

Through most of history IRL, spears are one handed weapons, mostly for throwing, but can easily be used two handed as well, this is a nice versatility. And might even carry over IG. 

That doesn't mean that two-handed spears should be virtually non-existent.

Types, Lets face it, there is just so much dressing you can put on something that is, essentually a sharpened stick. True, they get more advanced then that, but in the end, it is a stick with a sharp end.

Most swords are nothing but sharpened lengths of bone or obsidian with a leather wrapepd hilt, most clubs are nothing but thick sticks, and most knives are pointed shards of bone with an edge. I don't see why you would make that argument. It's not about the physical properties of the weapon but how they're described, and it just happens that most spears IG have very dreary descriptions that deter anyone who likes neat equipment that says a little about the character. There are also virtually no crude, poor-looking spears that are readily available, so someone going for the ragged 'rinther or grebber look will probably go for the chipped, obsidian dagger or something similar to add to the desired appearance. I get the impression that most spears were written ages ago when items were generally less detailed, and so when more interesting weapons of other types were added, spears were neglected. At least the ones that most players can acquire.

Believe me, there are inherent advantages...and disadvantages to using a spear, same for the other weapon styles.

I've never noticed any, and evidently these supposed advantages are not enough to make the spear a commonly used weapon among the playerbase. That's generally a good indication that something is sub-par.

I have, however, noticed your tendency to disagree with anything and everything posted in the code section, to the point where it appears as if you're just arguing against things for the sake of it.

[a strange shadow]

Spears are awesome. I love spears.

It can be hard to find a good one, though.




Yes, that's what she said.

[Synthesis]

Heh, I remember this one time, back when Kishime Fale was a Templar...he bought my militia sergeant this two-handed spear at a Salarr auction.  This was before two-handed was a coded skill, so I never used the damn thing, because it was much better to simply use the militia-issue one-handed spear with the militia-issue shield.

But I always wore that damn thing on my back, out of fear.

[X-D]

First, though many npcs have more then one style weapon, You should really look harder. Halfings use spears, gith use spears, most delf and human tribal npcs...yup, spears, mantis use spears. That pretty much covers over half the population of the known world.

City types would not use spears because spears are not a good weapon for close quarters enclosed spaces.

Of course even your first post was talking about hunters, or at least that is what I assumed when you said "less civilized places."

As to it seeming that I disagree with things posted in the code section...Well, maybe that is because in most cases what the person is posting that they think is true is in fact false.

Unfortunatly, in most cases though, all I can say is that they are wrong, GDB and arm rules forbid me going in depth on how the code works 99% of the time.

You also pick and choose what you want to argue against, like many people and totally ignoring the reasoning behind the arguement.

Case in point

Quote
Types, Lets face it, there is just so much dressing you can put on something that is, essentually a sharpened stick. True, they get more advanced then that, but in the end, it is a stick with a sharp end.

Most swords are nothing but sharpened lengths of bone or obsidian with a leather wrapepd hilt, most clubs are nothing but thick sticks, and most knives are pointed shards of bone with an edge. I don't see why you would make that argument. It's not about the physical properties of the weapon but how they're described, and it just happens that most spears IG have very dreary descriptions that deter anyone who likes neat equipment that says a little about the character. There are also virtually no crude, poor-looking spears that are readily available, so someone going for the ragged 'rinther or grebber look will probably go for the chipped, obsidian dagger or something similar to add to the desired appearance. I get the impression that most spears were written ages ago when items were generally less detailed, and so when more interesting weapons of other types were added, spears were neglected. At least the ones that most players can acquire.

Though you completely ignored/left out this.

That being said, I believe there are over 30 different spear style items IG, some of them are really cool. But you might only see them if you find a crafter who has figured them out.

As to low end spears being readily available, Meh, Most spears that are readily available ARE low end spears. As I said, I could in fact name off more then 30 different spears IG, only about 8 of them are really high end spears and I am sure that there are many more then I know of.

I really do not know what to tell you about the fact that you cannot notice any real difference/advantage to using a spear IG, there is one at least that is almost a neon sign.

If you want more spear types IG, do like others do when they want more varied items, Submit them yourself. I doubt anybody would complain, after all, most the coolest stuff IG is player submitted not staff creations.

[SMuz]

Oh, no, no, no. Spears are awesome. They're imbalanced enough as it is. If everyone starts using them properly, you'll have another person writing about them being imbalanced.

I say leave spears alone. A lot of players are using them wrong. Certain types of characters are better off with them, heck, there are enough of those characters that you could amass a very scary army of them. Certain other types of characters are hopeless with them, same goes for other weapons like daggers and clubs.

Also, you're incorrect about 'rinthers and tribals not using them. Both have a lot of nasty spears. There are some cool spears in-game too that make me somewhat regret not using them. And some of those NPCs use it well enough to drop your HP by 50 with a single hit. But saying more is too IC.

IMHO, maces are under-used. I've only seen one character carry around a mace.

[X-D]

Don't worry Smuz, these things are cyclic.

about seven years ago people complained nobody used anything but swords, then it changed to maces and hammers, then spears (never really chopping though).

And look, one of our newer players has noticed other then what the OP thinks...huh.

[Good Gortok]

First, though many npcs have more then one style weapon, You should really look harder. Halfings use spears, gith use spears, most delf and human tribal npcs...yup, spears, mantis use spears. That pretty much covers over half the population of the known world.

I've seen many more elven/human tribal NPCs use tomahawks, swords, scimitars, and whatever heathen weapons the Tan Muark use, than spears. Some gith use spears, but just as many use swords and longknives. Some halflings use spears, but this race is so reclusive as to pretty much be a non-factor in any discussion concerning culture. Mantis use gythka and knives. Nearly all NPCs in the game dual-wield smaller weapons.

City types would not use spears because spears are not a good weapon for close quarters enclosed spaces.

The spear is the epitome of warfare and military weaponry up until the invention of firearms. Unfortunately, Armageddon's code does not allow for the tactics that make spears truly useful.

[Majikal]

First, though many npcs have more then one style weapon, You should really look harder. Halfings use spears, gith use spears, most delf and human tribal npcs...yup, spears, mantis use spears. That pretty much covers over half the population of the known world.

Spears are definately the most popular choice of a weapon in arm over the known world, just not the most popular choice by the current characters.

I will agree with the OP in that spears are rather boring, there's a couple that I really fell in love with after I played a pc that was subguild for crafting spears and got to whip up some nifty stuff. But generally checking shops you'll only bump into the common 'blah-headed wooden spear' and when logging in and setting up your new pc most folks are pretty impatient about getting them out of their newbie gear. A nice razor-edged wickedly sharp longsword with a well-balanced dragon-carved hilt will tend to make a fella lean away from the simple, rock-tipped stick. Again though, in the end a spear is just a pointy tipped stick. No reason to dress it up.

As for the perks to using a spear? They become very obvious once you get a little skill in the weapon.

[SMuz]

City types would not use spears because spears are not a good weapon for close quarters enclosed spaces.

The spear is the epitome of warfare and military weaponry up until the invention of firearms. Unfortunately, Armageddon's code does not allow for the tactics that make spears truly useful.

IMHO, real spears are a lot more useful in enclosed spaces, as opposed to a sword or anything that requires a long swinging arc. I mean really, now. A soldier swinging a huge axe at a thief in the bazaar? Jabbing a spear at him would be safer.

I think proper formations would be a cool thing to see in Arm, instead of the weird-ish formations that Arm uses. I assume that Zalanthans haven't yet gotten to the military technology where they have proper formations

[Jingo]

Eh. I've had a recent desert elf whose primary fighting style was two-handed + spear. There are plenty of them lying around too. Even neat ones.

I don't think it's a problem.

[Clearsighted]

Oh, no, no, no. Spears are awesome. They're imbalanced enough as it is. If everyone starts using them properly, you'll have another person writing about them being imbalanced.

I say leave spears alone. A lot of players are using them wrong. Certain types of characters are better off with them, heck, there are enough of those characters that you could amass a very scary army of them. Certain other types of characters are hopeless with them, same goes for other weapons like daggers and clubs.

Also, you're incorrect about 'rinthers and tribals not using them. Both have a lot of nasty spears. There are some cool spears in-game too that make me somewhat regret not using them. And some of those NPCs use it well enough to drop your HP by 50 with a single hit. But saying more is too IC.

IMHO, maces are under-used. I've only seen one character carry around a mace.

The nice thing about being a human when it comes to weapons, I've found, is that your wisdom means you actually have a chance at learning multiple types of weapons and styles before hell freezes over (as even long lived dwarves and giants can take /forever/ to truly gain mastery), yet you are at the same time, strong enough, unlike most half elves and neckers, to actually make good use out of certain styles such as bludgeoning or axes.

Eh. I've had a recent desert elf whose primary fighting style was two-handed + spear. There are plenty of them lying around too. Even neat ones.

I don't think it's a problem.

There are not plenty of two handed spears laying around. Though there are a few one-handed that are just barely sturdy enough to wield two handed. I would suggest that actual two-handed only spears are the most rare weapons in the game. That doesn't mean one or two clans don't get one.

It's just funny we can find a voulge in the bazaar, but the one type of weapon that hunters would actually probably use to tackle the huge, dangerous creatures that roam Zalanthas, is so absent. Like X-D said, in real life, spears were meant for big, dangerous game, for the killing thrust (such as a boar spear or broad spear).

i think I am going to write up one or two and submit them.

[RogueGunslinger]

I like spears. The spears in game are coded great, in my opinion, and realistically. Can't go into too much more detail, but they are quite effective.

[Riev]

Hi. I'm a PC, and I use Spears.

Its not my PRIMARY weapon, but I'm looking into changing that.

I will never use them 2handed due to RP issues with my character, but I am not personally against doing it if I felt the need.


As a side note, this one time I had a combat question for my character and I said "What would X-D do?" and the next day I logged in, and my PC spent its Virtual Time kicking ass and taking names. Yes, X-D is that good.

[Clearsighted]

It's a little known fact that X-D's PC's tears could have cured the kanks.

Unfortunately, he has never cried.

[Synthesis]

How the hell do all you people know who X-D is playing?

[Qzzrbl]

How the hell do all you people know who X-D is playing?

I can't imagine the Staff letting anyone else play a character with X-D in his sdesc.

[Clearsighted]

How the hell do all you people know who X-D is playing?

He was Sergeant Tarq in the T'zai Byn a few yearish ago, who was my Trooper's awesome mentor. He's said as much on the board, so it's no secret.

[Eloran]

Spears are buff. Leave it at that.