Mundane PC roles

[My 2 sids]

I've noticed how there seems to be this need to jump on and interigate non-clanned PCs in game.  It's a huge world filled with all kinds -- but it seems some PCs just can't accept that some players actually create normal, every-day, Amoses.   

Is it just me?  Or are other players seeing this happen in game as well?

[RogueGunslinger]

I voted for choice number one. But If I could I would have voted for both one and three.

OF course I always make assumptions on what a certain character might be. I can't help it. But I don't go so far as to condemn player or their characters for being everyday pc's. Fuck they're probably 50% of my apps.

[Cavaticus]

I voted for choice one.

Of course, playing an Amos isn't necessarily the greatest challenge. The greatest challenge is often STAYING an Amos.

[Cutthroat]

I voted for choice one also.

I'm not seeing this happen... at all. Over the past two years I rarely have.

Realistically, there's going to be tens of thousands of "everyday-Amos" vNPCs, so one PC that is like this should not make a difference, or be accused of something over the simple fact that they're not employed with a major organization.

When this does happen it's a problem of not accounting for the vNPC population, which -is- something I see happen a lot, but in different ways. But I digress.

[Is Friday]

I love amos-types.

[Boggis]

I've seen it happen. I think it's mainly a result of the gameworld being stretched too thin leaving clans under-populated and often in dire need of people. This results in clan recruiters going to odd lengths to try and recruit nearly anybody they see either for direct or "off the books" employment. This is usually followed by other clans thinking they need to either recruit or keep an eye on the same unclanned person as they will surely have been approached by some other clan. All a bit ridiculous but it's not going to change until the game has one major area of population and there's competition to actually get into clans as opposed to the current scramble for hires.

[Gimfalisette]

I remember a couple years ago now when there were two street-sweeper PCs simultaneously in Allanak for a VERY brief period, and how they came to blows over who'd get to sweep where, and how my militia PC got called in to help make sure no one got killed. I loved those PCs. I loved those -players-. I was sad when the PCs stopped showing up.

Personally, I don't interrogate PCs I meet in game. Why? I don't care if they're a sekret 'gicker, OOCly...and my PC wouldn't have a reason to suspect such.

[staggerlee]

I think that the biggest reason they get harassed as to their motives and career is that leader players are usually looking for people to fill roles. If the "amos" types are well played, leaders are going to try to find a job for them... when they refuse to take that job, it raises questions.
Especially because of the IC  logic. Who would want to greb, sweep streets, beg, or break rocks, when they can become an  aide, informant, soldier, or merchant and make their salary many times over. 

...unless they have something to hide.

[number13]

I enjoy seeing that sort of character, but recognize they are sustainable roles over the long run.  Eventually the everyday Amos is going to advance or store.

[AJM]

Amos types FTW. My mundane chars, still think the are the shit, weather they can nuke a city, or not.

[Gimfalisette]

I think that the biggest reason they get harassed as to their motives and career is that leader players are usually looking for people to fill roles. If the "amos" types are well played, leaders are going to try to find a job for them... when they refuse to take that job, it raises questions.
Especially because of the IC  logic. Who would want to greb, sweep streets, beg, or break rocks, when they can become an  aide, informant, soldier, or merchant and make their salary many times over. 

...unless they have something to hide.

When I've played a leader PC and encountered that type, the IC explanation my PC had for it was something along the lines of, "They don't have the strength of character for this job." I.e., not courageous, smart, strong-willed, enduring, or competent enough for the role.

I mean, really, it's not JUST sekret 'gickers or 'benders who don't join clans...it's also players who are burnt out on clans. I'd wager that OOC clan-burn-out is a much bigger factor than anything IC.

[Marauder Moe]

Feuding Allanaki street sweepers?  That is so epic...

[staggerlee]

I think that the biggest reason they get harassed as to their motives and career is that leader players are usually looking for people to fill roles. If the "amos" types are well played, leaders are going to try to find a job for them... when they refuse to take that job, it raises questions.
Especially because of the IC  logic. Who would want to greb, sweep streets, beg, or break rocks, when they can become an  aide, informant, soldier, or merchant and make their salary many times over. 

...unless they have something to hide.

When I've played a leader PC and encountered that type, the IC explanation my PC had for it was something along the lines of, "They don't have the strength of character for this job." I.e., not courageous, smart, strong-willed, enduring, or competent enough for the role.

I mean, really, it's not JUST sekret 'gickers or 'benders who don't join clans...it's also players who are burnt out on clans. I'd wager that OOC clan-burn-out is a much bigger factor than anything IC.

Absolutely, I approach it in a similar manner. I'm fairly sure you're right.
But still, from an ic perspective you can understand why eyebrows would be raised when someone turns down a job as an oashi aide so that they can continue sweeping streets.

[Gimfalisette]

But still, from an ic perspective you can understand why eyebrows would be raised when someone turns down a job as an oashi aide so that they can continue sweeping streets.

Well, not really. A street sweeper being recruited as an aide for one of Nak's top houses? Yes, we've all -seen- people who were wildly inappropriate by background get elevated to positions like that...but should it really happen? I'd like to see leader PCs turning up their noses and refusing to hire PCs more often, honestly. If the PC isn't played by an obvious newbie--there should be some violent snubbing going on, at least on occasion. If the PC -is- played by an obvious newbie, then the Byn or a GMH is a better choice anyways, usually.

[X-D]

I voted for 3, but that is only because, as far as I am concerned all 3 voting options are the same.

[Halcyon]

I've noticed how there seems to be this need to jump on and interigate non-clanned PCs in game.  It's a huge world filled with all kinds -- but it seems some PCs just can't accept that some players actually create normal, every-day, Amoses.   

Is it just me?  Or are other players seeing this happen in game as well?

I dont think non-clanned has to mean magickal, karma, or above-normal characters.  I think there are any number of Ic or Ooc reasons to be unclanned, from disliking specific rules and prohibitions (controls on selling, what you can't hunt, time spent on some repeating non-interesting task, incompatible dwarven foci), to simple player or population issues.  At one point I went through a bunch of characters in short order, didnt want to create a third Salarri or third Kadian, and wasnt interested in some of the other options.

My part in this discussion to "integrate more non-clanned" sprang from playing with a couple groups of self-organizing independents who were doing fun things, and a perception that there were a significant number of other indeps also doing similar things.  I dont know if that's just the small percentage of the playerbase that I see.

[My 2 sids]

Staggerlee, how about that loggically that grubber knows their place in society?  For some grubber to take a job clearly ment for someone much further up the social latter than they would be an insult for the House.

It would be one thing to take a new recruit before a noble and say, "I know she's young and new but her brother works for one of the Great Merchant Houses and her mother is a well-respected carivan leader -- given time I believe this recruit will do well for the house."   It's quite another to bring a new recruit before a noble and say, "Here's someone I found on the street, has no connections to the political or well-known merchants, but she's breathing and can swing a sword"   Then there's is explaining the whole, "Well Lord, even though this person is living hand-to-mouth and scraping by, she believes she is better than the 10,000 other commoners and feels you should hire her and give her unlimited security, food, prestege, and water"


Likewise, if Navy Seals came to my house today and offered me a job I'd have to decline.  Not because I have a better offer, not because I think myself better than they, not because I'm secretly a Russian spy -- but because I know I don't have anywhere near the skills it would take to fill that position.

[LoD]

Well, not really. A street sweeper being recruited as an aide for one of Nak's top houses? Yes, we've all -seen- people who were wildly inappropriate by background get elevated to positions like that...but should it really happen? I'd like to see leader PCs turning up their noses and refusing to hire PCs more often, honestly. If the PC isn't played by an obvious newbie--there should be some violent snubbing going on, at least on occasion. If the PC -is- played by an obvious newbie, then the Byn or a GMH is a better choice anyways, usually.

Nobles attempting to recruit some poor common street sweeper would be an absolutely wonderful opportunity to make them instantly regret it.

Code Select Expand

Dirt Poor Tavern [N]
   The floors of this tavern are almost completely bare, the empty space wrapping about a single wooden table in the middle of the room.
A dirty, human street sweeper is here, sitting at the table.

The svelte, clean shaven man has arrived from the north.
A burly, broad-shouldered guard has arrived from the north.

The svelte, clean shaven man sits down at the table.

Plucking a glove gently from his hand, the svelte, clean shaven man says, at the table, in sirihish:
   "My good citizen, today is your lucky day.  I am looking for a new aide, and I've seen you about town."

The dirty, human street sweeper glances up toward the svelte, clean shaven man.

Spreading a mouth of broken teeth, the dirty, human street sweeper says, at the table, in sirihish:
   "Meh?  Really!?  Well, shit on a stone brick, I knew that mornin' romp wid' da one-legged whore would start the day off right..."

Slapping a hand to the table and guffawing, the dirty, human street sweeper says, at the table, in sirihish:
   "...an' I was right!  Ha-hoo!"

Clearing his throat, the svelte, clean shaven man says, at the table, in sirhish:
   "Yes, well, the pay is 500 black a month and you would report directly to me."

His eyes nearly squeezing out of his head, the dirty, human street sweeper, at the table, in sirihish:
   "FIVE HUNDRED 'SID'A MONTH!  Damn, that's like...that's like...almost a hundred bottles'a Sun!

Nearly howling toward the ceiling, the dirty, human street sweeper says, at the table, in sirihish:
   "Drunk all day an' night, yessir!"

His features quickly retreating to a more serious expression, the dirty, human street sweeper says, at the table, in sirihish:
   "I mean, uh -- yeah, sounds good!"

His hot breath forming an unpleasant front as it sweeps across the table, the dirty, human street sweeper says, at the table, in sirihish:
   "When do I start the ole' thingy-ma-jigger?"

Nervously tapping a finger atop the table, the svelte, clean shaven man says, at the table, in sirihish:
   "Uhhh, well, you know -- I think, yes, someone just Wayed me and I have to...I have to go."

Hastily knocking his chair over as he rises, the svelte, clean shaven man says, in sirihish:
   "G-good day."

The svelte, clean shaven man rises from the table.

The svelte, clean shaven man runs north.
The burly, broad-shouldered man runs north.

It'd be no end of fun in that position. You could help employers recognize exactly why you're sweeping streets.

-LoD

[Semper]

Mundane, everyday characters are great. But who wants to be the average or below character for a long time? Usually these roles are just fillers for the big fish roles.

If people found a way to make these roles both long-term and enjoyable, then there'd be more of them.

Anyways, beggar, prostitute, drunk, orphan, etc, all start becoming the same thing over a long run. There's only so many ways to play these roles before you start running out of ideas, or someone else has tried it already.

And usually, these kinds of characters either are covering up something *unique* about them, or will be dragged into unique roles if they are around long enough.

Meaning, I don't think there's such a thing as a regular average Amos. All character's are special, end up being special, or die/store.

So I chose option 3.

[Jingo]

I've noticed how there seems to be this need to jump on and interigate non-clanned PCs in game.  It's a huge world filled with all kinds -- but it seems some PCs just can't accept that some players actually create normal, every-day, Amoses.   

Is it just me?  Or are other players seeing this happen in game as well?

I think I've rarely made this assumption with just some random pc dungsweeper/miner/hooker pc without some other reason to.

Aide PC's on the other hand are always secretly mages/psis/spies/thieves/hookers.

[Semper]

I've noticed how there seems to be this need to jump on and interigate non-clanned PCs in game.  It's a huge world filled with all kinds -- but it seems some PCs just can't accept that some players actually create normal, every-day, Amoses.   

Is it just me?  Or are other players seeing this happen in game as well?

I think I've rarely made this assumption with just some random pc dungsweeper/miner/hooker pc without some other reason to.

Aide PC's on the other hand are always secretly mages/psis/spies/thieves/hookers.

I didn't know hookers were on the same level as mages and psis. LoL.

[Ampere]

Mundane, everyday characters are great. But who wants to be the average or below character for a long time? Usually these roles are just fillers for the big fish roles.

If people found a way to make these roles both long-term and enjoyable, then there'd be more of them.

Anyways, beggar, prostitute, drunk, orphan, etc, all start becoming the same thing over a long run. There's only so many ways to play these roles before you start running out of ideas, or someone else has tried it already.

And usually, these kinds of characters either are covering up something *unique* about them, or will be dragged into unique roles if they are around long enough.

Meaning, I don't think there's such a thing as a regular average Amos. All character's are special, end up being special, or die/store.

So I chose option 3.

Sorry, but a janitor's motivation can be just as layered as that of a green beret.  As far as someone else trying it already?  I'm pretty sure the hypermasculine warrior's been done, but I still enjoy it if it's done well.

EDIT: Sorry about the rude, I guess I'm in a bad mood.  Dickish comments deleted.

[Semper]

Mundane, everyday characters are great. But who wants to be the average or below character for a long time? Usually these roles are just fillers for the big fish roles.

If people found a way to make these roles both long-term and enjoyable, then there'd be more of them.

Anyways, beggar, prostitute, drunk, orphan, etc, all start becoming the same thing over a long run. There's only so many ways to play these roles before you start running out of ideas, or someone else has tried it already.

And usually, these kinds of characters either are covering up something *unique* about them, or will be dragged into unique roles if they are around long enough.

Meaning, I don't think there's such a thing as a regular average Amos. All character's are special, end up being special, or die/store.

So I chose option 3.

Good point, Ampere.

How then do you make these roles enjoyable for the long run? Tips? Word of Advice from the experienced?

[Ampere]

Mundane, everyday characters are great. But who wants to be the average or below character for a long time? Usually these roles are just fillers for the big fish roles.

If people found a way to make these roles both long-term and enjoyable, then there'd be more of them.

Anyways, beggar, prostitute, drunk, orphan, etc, all start becoming the same thing over a long run. There's only so many ways to play these roles before you start running out of ideas, or someone else has tried it already.

And usually, these kinds of characters either are covering up something *unique* about them, or will be dragged into unique roles if they are around long enough.

Meaning, I don't think there's such a thing as a regular average Amos. All character's are special, end up being special, or die/store.

So I chose option 3.

Good point, Ampere.

How then do you make these roles enjoyable for the long run? Tips? Word of Advice from the experienced?

Regular people still have goals.  Find one. Attain it. Rinse. Repeat.

[zanthalandreams]

Mundane, everyday characters are great. But who wants to be the average or below character for a long time? Usually these roles are just fillers for the big fish roles.

Ever try to be a big fish without anyone willing to play filler roles for you?   

Just sayin'.

[RogueGunslinger]

Mundane, everyday characters are great. But who wants to be the average or below character for a long time? Usually these roles are just fillers for the big fish roles.

Ever try to be a big fish without anyone willing to play filler roles for you?   

Just sayin'.

This is a very good point.

[Clearsighted]

I much prefer mundane PCs, to yet another psionicist or gicker.

[Archbaron]

Generally, I OOCly see Amoses as newbies or uninspired players hopping between roles, but that's only because I personally like playing basket cases. I assume the vNPCs are all the Amoses I ever need.

[Moofassa]

I have access to nearly every guild, and I think I've played maybe one or two mages that I've enjoyed. There's just a thrill about being ordinarily extraordinary. The RP seems more intense to me, there's more option, there's more improv. and overall more enjoyment. The mage classes are far too heavily "spam" based for me to enjoy playing a character, rather than a conscious machine. Playing a mundane, I can live my life, and my skills get better as a I do. While thats also possible for mages and other bender-y guilds, I find when I play a mage (personal) I can't get my mind off making sure my skills are going to fire when the time is right to shoot. Just me.


This is my first post in ages, in which I've written more than three sentences in like three years.

[SMuz]

Ha, my first two Amos newbie characters are working out great. There's also another one in my clan who's a typical farmer, as green as I was. The problem is staying a typical character. Eventually, you stick out - guess that's what separates the PCs and NPCs from vNPCs. A typical street sweeper could grow to be a great warrior just because he put a little effort in fixing his life.

Or he could grow up to be a drunk who passes out all the time and spends all his 'sid on whores. Up to him.

[jcljules]

I think that the biggest reason they get harassed as to their motives and career is that leader players are usually looking for people to fill roles. If the "amos" types are well played, leaders are going to try to find a job for them... when they refuse to take that job, it raises questions.
Especially because of the IC  logic. Who would want to greb, sweep streets, beg, or break rocks, when they can become an  aide, informant, soldier, or merchant and make their salary many times over. 

...unless they have something to hide.

If I was playing an amos type character and I was approached with a job offer, I would just fuck up and do terribly. If I was hired by a merchant house, great! I would give away items and talk about their terrible quality. If I was in the militia in 'nak, I would pick up a spice habit.

Just my opinion, but I think if someone is trying to place Average Amos, they shouldn't play him capably enough to join a major organization. They should it make it clear to clan employers that they suck, and its not IC to hire them.

[staggerlee]

I think that the biggest reason they get harassed as to their motives and career is that leader players are usually looking for people to fill roles. If the "amos" types are well played, leaders are going to try to find a job for them... when they refuse to take that job, it raises questions.
Especially because of the IC  logic. Who would want to greb, sweep streets, beg, or break rocks, when they can become an  aide, informant, soldier, or merchant and make their salary many times over. 

...unless they have something to hide.

If I was playing an amos type character and I was approached with a job offer, I would just fuck up and do terribly. If I was hired by a merchant house, great! I would give away items and talk about their terrible quality. If I was in the militia in 'nak, I would pick up a spice habit.

Just my opinion, but I think if someone is trying to place Average Amos, they shouldn't play him capably enough to join a major organization. They should it make it clear to clan employers that they suck, and its not IC to hire them.

I'm not disputing that at all. It would be grotesquely negligent for Lord Templar Tor to hire a street sweeper as his personal aide.

... but said streetsweeper should certainly be affected by the offer.  Being terrified of the consequences of your inevitable failure is a fair reaction, taking the job and fucking it up is a fair reaction, turning up your nose, scoffing and going back to street sweeping is not.

  I don't really think we're in disagreement though.

[jcljules]

Yeah, I totally agree with your points--I was just adding a little something. Didn't mean to sound snarky or confrontational.

[AmandaGreathouse]

I think its good that people play what they want, but my husband said something the other day in the car that is really kinda true to me, with regards to Arm.

PCs are special, it's not player character, but particular character, whether for good or ill, something about them makes them really stand out.

NPCs aren't nonplayer characters, they are No Particular Character. They kinda stand out, but not all that much. They arent just 'streetsweeper #14'.

VNPC Virtually No Particular Character. They are so average, they almost always blend in.

That was paraphrasing, because I don't remember the exact words, but that really makes sense, in a way. I mean, if you want to play your average Amos, I'm going to wonder what it was that caught my attention about you, yeah, but go for it. Last thing I'd want is to limit or ruin someone elses experience.

[Boggis]

PCs are special, it's not player character, but particular character, whether for good or ill, something about them makes them really stand out.

This just isn't true in my opinion. Nothing makes them standout - that's just the player thinking that OOCly and applying it to the gameworld even though it doesn't make much sense. PCs occupy the same space in the world as NPCs, do the same jobs, etc. PCs aren't really the movers and shakers of the world, generally occupying a low level management role in organisations similar to NPCs. Granted most PCs tend to have far shorter lives than NPCs / VNPCs probably do but I'm not sure that marks them as "special". Slightly retarded maybe.

[Armaddict]

With Boggis, I don't really find myself...particularly attracted to that idea.  If only because it fosters the idea that because you are a PC, you are less subjected to being bound by documentation.  Because you're 'special'.  It sounds silly, I know, and it is generally small, mundane things that make that 'specialness', but it becomes more and more acceptable and follows a curve away from the norm, shifting it completely.

The problem with that, is that the vnpcs, the npcs, make very little note of themselves.  Their presence is not actively portrayed, while that of the PC is.  It is very very easy to forget that that group over there all consists of 'specialness' that is out of the norm...simply because a group of five all saying the same thing makes it seem more normal and will actually have a larger presence then most other 'special' people.

So specialness is okay, but I always like those who play the ignorant, culturally-fed guy, simply because it keeps that 'normal' presence....present.

[staggerlee]

With Boggis, I don't really find myself...particularly attracted to that idea.  If only because it fosters the idea that because you are a PC, you are less subjected to being bound by documentation.  Because you're 'special'.  It sounds silly, I know, and it is generally small, mundane things that make that 'specialness', but it becomes more and more acceptable and follows a curve away from the norm, shifting it completely.

The problem with that, is that the vnpcs, the npcs, make very little note of themselves.  Their presence is not actively portrayed, while that of the PC is.  It is very very easy to forget that that group over there all consists of 'specialness' that is out of the norm...simply because a group of five all saying the same thing makes it seem more normal and will actually have a larger presence then most other 'special' people.

So specialness is okay, but I always like those who play the ignorant, culturally-fed guy, simply because it keeps that 'normal' presence....present.

In fact, pcs are often some of the smallest players in the game. The most powerful tribal elders, templars, nobles, and so forth are never player run.  You're just one little person in a big, cold, cruel world that doesn't particularly care about you, and you can end up dead just as fast as the vnpcs in the body pile.

Besides, its organizations and groups that get things done. Individuals are fodder for the machine.
PCs are subjectively special in that you may care more about them, but as far as the world goes there's not necessarily anything special at all about them.

In short, I agree with Boggis and Armaddict, and I think that it's  actually a crucial distinction.


Slight tangent:  Often the way people portray mundane, or "unexceptional" people bothers me. It seems that a lot of people think mundane is synonymous with unmotivated or suicidal.  Your street sweeper, your beggar and prostitute should still have fears and dreams - they should crave dignity, power, love and sprinkled donuts like anyone else, and self preservation should be as important to them as it is to your 560 day mul sorceror.

[AmandaGreathouse]

I don't mean the richest, I don't mean the most powerful, I just mean that players are like the people that you just happen to notice in a crowd while walking down a busy street IRL. They aren't necessarily Johnny Cochran or Angelina Jolie, but, for some reason, they stand out. Could just be the fit of the skirt, or that particular fear of gurth, or the wierd ass birthmark you have.

[RogueGunslinger]

I get what amanda is saying. It's a good way to deal with suspension of belief to assume that pc's stand out more. But I think of it as pc's are more attracted to each other.

Just a way of dealing with the fact that we pick on pc's more than npc's, or vNPC's.

[Gagula]

Personally, I view all of Armageddon as a giant, interactive, pop-up story book (ok, so I had some wierd fairy tales when I was growing up).  Maybe not EVERY character that you see has a particular purpose in the overall plot, but they are important none the less....even if it's just that the Uber-templar spat on The sun brassen mul street-sweeper, he's still important to the overall picture of the world......even if it is just because your 60 day warrior decided it was time to feed the scrabs.

[DustMight]

I love the everyday Amos - and I love to play them.  Chances are if you see a character with a (hopefully) well written description who is just a plain joe or jane, that's me.  Most of the time.

Armageddon is a world of grit - can't have a gritty world without a lot of gritty, normal taxi-driving suckers out there.

[My 2 sids]

I guess I was just curious.  I've heard some players get very frustrated when they can't just play a regular-joe type character.    I'd like to think these things are totally IC -- but sometimes a question of "why can't this _player_  just leave me and my Amos alone?"