City-elf problems and possible solutions

[Rhyden]

Claims that elves can't be badass warriors, please meet Pendeh.

Wasn't Pendeh a d-elf?

Personally, I see no problems with city elves. Can't wait to play another one. A c-elf in a tribe would be fuckin' wicked.

[Jingo]

...wait. If I remember right, Pendeh was actually a d-elf.

I know he could run through the desert just fine.

Edit: lol

[Jingo]

In a way, I think Pendeh is actually the ideal I'm trying to grasp for when I'm bitching all over the place about elves.

I want my mercenary c-elf that can run. Very employable and very badass.

Shame I need to spec-app for it.

[a strange shadow]

Pendeh was not a coded desert elf, and didn't have desert elf perks.

That's part of the reason why it is so badass that he spent 80% of his time in the desert.

[Synthesis]

My last character was a 13-day city-elf assassin, who was almost fully branched (lacked 2 skills, if I recall), and had racked up about 8 or so pkills and tens of thousands of 'sid worth of loot.

I still wouldn't ever play a city-elf again, that's how stupidly bad he was.

It's not that I don't enjoy playing city-elves...it's simply that there wasn't a single thing he could do that a human, dwarf, or half-elf couldn't do better, and more easily, while actually interacting with people beyond borderline griefing.

[Jingo]

Pendeh was not a coded desert elf, and didn't have desert elf perks.

That's part of the reason why it is so badass that he spent 80% of his time in the desert.

That doesn't make any sense. He could run in the desert just fine.

City elves can run maybe 15-20 rooms before they are out of stamina.

We're talking about the same elf right? From 2004-2005 ish?

[SMuz]

This thread makes me want to make my next few characters c-elves just to boost the PC representation. I love them. Just need more proper tribes in the south. Virtual tribes are kinda boring, and kinda border on poweremoting with how elves are always getting their friends to bully others.

I wouldn't say that c-elves make very good assassins either. IMHO, second worst class, codedly. Might be OK if you have a elven assassin concept, but good luck getting that to work.

[Fathi]

Pendeh was not a coded desert elf, and didn't have desert elf perks.

That's part of the reason why it is so badass that he spent 80% of his time in the desert.

That doesn't make any sense. He could run in the desert just fine.

City elves can run maybe 15-20 rooms before they are out of stamina.

We're talking about the same elf right? From 2004-2005 ish?

I didn't play with Pendeh so I can't offer much input on that subject, but city elves can run more than 15-20 rooms if they wear stamina-boosting gear and stick to the roads.

Sharak's old enough to be mentioned on the boards at this point, so I'm going to throw him out as an example, as well. However, I remember the difference in sparring Sharak before and after the parry nerf was pretty staggering. My then-Trooper went from getting her ass handed to her by Sharak to being juuuust about able to win sparring matches against him with that single code change.

That could be a reason why there aren't all that many city elf warriors around these days.

[Sephiroto]

I melee'd Sharak with a non-melee class once and wasn't murdered immediately.  Basically, stats won in that case.  Granted, I was surprised.

Also, Pendeh existed before the parry/defense changes.  Pendeh would be murdered in a straight up melee by any warrior of higher strength if both combattants had relatively similar skills.

Right now elves are so terrible in melee veruses other races.  A human with high strength and decent skill can chop them.  Strength wins.  Until Agility does more for combat/ranged skill then I don't forsee many people playing elven warriors.

Low strength is so terrible right now...  I've seen humans with low strength have their blows consistantly bounce off of a mortally wounded target.  I can only imagine the woes of playing an elf with less than good or very good strength.

[a strange shadow]

I forgot about the parry/defense changes.

But he was definitely a city elf, and definitely kicked ass, as a character and as a warrior.

[Mr.B]

Also, Pendeh existed before the parry/defense changes.  Pendeh would be murdered in a straight up melee by any warrior of higher strength if both combattants had relatively similar skills.

Yeah. Maybe. If you could find one of relatively similar skill.

Pendeh was a city-elf warrior, and was in the game a very long time. He was a shit brickhouse of a combatant, and not because he could wtfpwn you with one or two hits. His was a death by papercuts only in the sparring ring, and with an actual weapon in his hands, he could not miss you, and proceed to tear anything he touched to pieces. Anything suffering from the defense nerf, if he was still around, would be completely and utterly at the mercy of his relentless assault. Defense nerf works both ways, in the case of powerful, long-lived warriors.

However, I think it's important to consider that what was possible before the nerf, would still be possible given advanced play-time and training in-game.

He had above avg or avg strength and very good agility. He also came in before the elf wisdom nerf, so later on his wisdom was on the high end by the new standards. His endurance was good. He wasn't uber statted, and stats only go so far, when skill is taken into account. I've been there, I've played it, I've rocked it.

Also, my 2 cents is this - if it were up to me, I would see the city elves get their running ability no matter where it is that they run. Let them suffer from their lack of stamina compared to other races, and compared to the d.elves, but don't take away the pride of their ability to run. I mailed the imms with that concern 4 or 5 years ago, and I guess they thought it was only because I wanted my leet perks. Which wasn't exactly the case, since I'd been playing Pendeh well over 80 days at that point, and saw that any noobie elf that wanted anything to do with the desert was not going to be as savvy and good as I was doing it, and would be the equivalent of a human walking in the desert.. with less stamina.

I hope the staff take a second look at that sometime, and say to themselves, "Well. The Elves have the ability to run, and that is their pride.. maybe for playability's sake we should give the c.elves the ability to run with their outstanding 105 stamina, no matter where they go, and let the d.elves keep their lesser need for water, and desert perks."

[LauraMars]

That's part of the reason why it is so badass that he spent 80% of his time in the desert.

That player must have had the patience of a saint.  Just because kicking ass with a GIGANTIC handicap is badass doesn't mean it's a great idea for everyone...especially people who just want a playable game.

[Mr.B]

That's part of the reason why it is so badass that he spent 80% of his time in the desert.

That player must have had the patience of a saint.  Just because kicking ass with a GIGANTIC handicap is badass doesn't mean it's a great idea for everyone...especially people who just want a playable game.

Well over 100 days played, spending much of that in the desert. In case I wasn't clear enough I'm the one that played him, and I agree that it's not for everyone because not all players have the savvy to do it. Considering the defense nerf, and the evil that are desert creatures, I think it's about time that city elves are given a little something extra. At least the ability to run away from those desert critters a little better then the average human.

[Thunkkin]

I find it interesting that the player of the character held up as "see, c-elves can rock" has posted that c-elves need a little love.

Nonetheless, I also find myself, for the first time ... drawn to playing one ... because the challenge sounds interesting.

I must be sick.

[IAmJacksOpinion]

You know that one mugger in the rinth with about 3 other muggers hiding around him that all jump you when you walk by with something pretty on?

I murdered them.

All.

Alone.

With a 3 hour c elf warrior. It was my second fight of the game.

I don't see a problem with c-elf stats that you guys see. My last C-elf was an assassin and he was decently wicked in a fight as well.

Two things I've spotted while browsing through this post that I WOULD like to see, though:

Stamina! Give C-Elves 3/4 of stamina of D-elves, and make it cost 1 extra Stam point per room to run through the desert. It would realistically bridge the gap between the proud, fierce, desert elves and the tall, angular, bi-lingual humans we play now!

Tribe! It's disgusting to know that every elf you meet in the city is from another tribe, or isn't tribed at all. I say players with 1 karma point (the requirement for D-elves) should be able to get in on coded city tribes that might own their own building somewhere or something. Or just tribes that are okay to use as backgrounds, but don't own SHIT for property.

We would definately see an uprise in players playing C-elves, which is good because it lends to the game. As it is now you rarely see one in Allanak (non-rinthi, at least). And when you do, people act like a mantis just walked in and ordered a drink!

I see there is now one up in Tuluk, but if I'm correct I think it had to be established IC by PCs, which is cool.

As it is, I've always liked seeing the c-elf tribes active. Especially in the Rinth, which is where I roll at least 1/4 of my characters. It's so neat and intriguing, but these rolls are very few and far between, unfortunately.

[Sephiroto]

I've been thinking about playing a c-elf also, but until strength becomes less overpowering in melee combat I can't realistically see myself being in a role that involves much melee.   

I'm still going to stick to my position that a human/dwarf of equal skill (yet different stats obviously) as a present-day Pendeh would pwn the elf.  No offense to your accomplishment, Mr. B, but strength totally rocks in terms of combat right now.  I played a half-elf magicker who can do unspeakable hits to braxat and mantis with a non-magick weapon and 0 weapon skills.  And no, these mantis and braxat were not asleep or under any adverse magicks.  Mantis are definitely not slow and the thought of a magicker doing unspeakable damage to one because of his strength alone is ludicrous. 

I would really like to see agility do more for combat, thus making elves more viable in melee roles.

[spicemustflow]

And when you do, people act like a mantis just walked in and ordered a drink!

This is what I hate, too. Racism is fine, but a bar turning into a lynch mob when an elf comes in is too much.

[Incognito]

City elves rock. Plain and simple.

OOCLY they are one of the most versatile races to play - and can easily carry off any role/guild combo you can think of.

If you're concerned about IC discrimination - it's always gonna be part and parcel of the elven race, just like the gemmers. Dealing with it - without getting bogged down by it - is the elven way.

As with all races, guilds and population in the various locations of the game - there are cyclic changes. You just might not see so many c-elves around right now, but in a few months, you might see so many that you'll be sick of them and sleeping with your coinpurse tucked in your crotch!

I personally don't think its an overall dislike for the c-elf race, that's causing the current dearth - it should be attributed to players playing other roles atm - that's all.

C-elf stats is another matter. I won't comment on it - the issue's been discussed ad nauseam.

[Synthesis]

City elves? Versatile? That makes me lol.

Versatile compared to a PC who is codedly blind, maybe.

[mansa]

When you can only join 1 clan, it sucks and prevents you from playing with characters.

i.e. magickers, elves, mutants, etc.

[Rooster]

Right now elves are so terrible in melee veruses other races.  A human with high strength and decent skill can chop them.  Strength wins.  Until Agility does more for combat/ranged skill then I don't forsee many people playing elven warriors.

Low strength is so terrible right now...  I've seen humans with low strength have their blows consistantly bounce off of a mortally wounded target.  I can only imagine the woes of playing an elf with less than good or very good strength.

I couldn't agree more. I think there might be a problem when a 30 day desert elven ranger with poor strength can't land one real hit on a 1 day dwarven warrior. Not that I've had a 30 day delf ranger, but if I did currently, and they had poor strength while fighting a dwarf, I would be surprised to see anything more than a graze, if that. But I derail (sorry), this would be more suitable in a 'combat problems' thread.

[Incognito]

I think its more of a balance issue.....

Having too many coded clans with clanned NPCs who auto-assist other clan-mates, in such a small zone, is a sure-fire recipe for disaster, and just an open invitation for twinking.

2 coded clans for c-elves in the rinth and 2 coded clans for non-c-elves - that PCs can join (provided they are open for play, and provided you can find someone to recruit you ICLY).

Think about it - you know the ones I'm talkin bout, I'm not putting down the clan names on the forum here. (There's also a 3rd coded clan for c-elves, which isnt that well known, but again - joinable by PCs).

Besides those five, there are other coded rinthi clans - which are ok to use as background, but probably will not earn you a coded clan flag anytime soon.

If you're really looking to "belong" in a c-elf tribe, its a good idea to write in to the c-elf staff - they're quite likely to guide you and also provide some info on the available options and some documentation to go along with it.

I don't mean to come off as someone who's just posting stuff for the sake of it - I've played in all five of these clans at some point - and my aim is to just let everyone know what possibilities are out there.

I really hope we'll have a c-elf tribes webpage sometime soon with basic info/documentation to go with it - to augment the rinthi-c-elf experience.

[FantasyWriter]

I think the coded clans in the rinth are cool.  I would love to see the place actually segregated.  If you're a human,  you shouldn't be walking into elftribex's territory, and if you do, you should expect to get pwned.

[Is Friday]

A warrior celf with above good/v good strength can fuck some people up if you as a player know how to play it. If you get below that, however... damn that sucks.

[Fathi]

Another thought I had on the subject has less to do with combat and more to do with just interacting with the coded aspects of the world. There are many, many reasons why elf strength is a huge pain in the ass that have nothing to do with combat, and I think it's because most of the items in the game were designed to be used by humans.

If you don't roll high strength on your elf PC, you'll have problems with a whole slew of things aside from combat. You won't be able to, for instance, pick up an empty chest. You'll find yourself encumbered to the point of extra stamina drain while wearing nothing but sandcloth/linen clothing and a backpack with a waterskin in it. You won't be able to craft with certain raw materials because you will not be able to lift them up and hold them in your inventory. I've had all these problems and more playing a low-strength PC that I had no intention of throwing into combat at any point.

It would be nice if there were more items that had been culturally developed for city elves, like there are for desert elves in the various tribes and d-elf outpost. It doesn't make sense to me that there's thousands of elves living in all these settlements, all of them weak as a noodle and unable to pick up hides to tan or stones to chisel unless they're completely naked.

All that being said, I think it's doubtful that we're going to see any major changes to city elves as a race in Arm 1. However, I hope the folks working on Arm 2 take racial stat differences into account when they're developing the game's item database.