Veteran drifter - Confessions of a weak will.

[zanthalandreams]

If this has been done better in a thread I just haven't found yet, please link it and I'll go there.  I've read through several threads revisiting the question of veteran drift.  Does it exist or doesn't it?  Is it a problem or isn't it? I realized in reading it that I am one of those drifty veterans being discussed.  I never have posted a flashy exit thread, or dramatically blogged my farewells . . . I just quit logging on and next thing I know a few days has turned into a half a year.  Since I haven't ever examined my reasons before, and I seem to be on a playing streak these days, I thought I'd share some of my drifter's delights and maybe it'll spark some other tell-alls. 

So, here goes:

1.  Daddy is all growed up now - This is probably the biggest one.  When I first discovered mudding, I was young and single with so much free time on my hands it was criminal.  Even taking a full load at Uni and having a part-time job, I still could sink time into playing make-believe.  I could take or support leadership roles and commit to being online enough to make them fun for everyone.  I am now married with two young sons.  None of those three are compassionate to the fact that since this character isn't a ranger, I really need about 20 more minutes to quit playing because it is dark and there's a sandstorm.  That, and playing LEGO with my 4 yr-old wins against killing Scrab #9875345 any day (as it should).

2.  Sandcastle effect - I didn't play Arm for over a year after The Announcement.  Prior to that, it felt like I was a part of something concrete - where the characters I built and the stories I collaboratively participated in would last long enough to have value.  That November, I was shocked into funneling my creative energy into something that . . . well . . . would be better appreciated for a longer amount of time.  An astonishing number of non-Imm players have contributed so much writing and art to this game.  That isn't to detract at all from what the Imms do contribute, but in a lot of ways they have their rewards - if only though expanded access.   Looking back - I have not made any significant contributions to the game from that point on.  This isn't out of anger or petulance.   It just dried up the game for me.   To strain the metaphor some, I still build sandcastles - only now I do it where I have more control of the tide. 

3.  Meet the new boss, sometimes different from the old boss - The few times I've left because of Imm conflicts (and conflict really isn't the right word) usually involved new staff taking over an existing clan.  Whatever their intent, the perception was that old players/customs/ideas/efforts are abandoned in the face of new admin's fresh and exciting ideas.  Since you can't fight city hall, the options are limited.   Suck it up and go along with the changes or get bitter about it.   I tended to take the third option of fading away from playing a game that could become more frustrating than fun.   This didn't happen very often, but did more than once.   Not every Imm was like that - and I even believe that none of them realized that they gave that perception.  Every single Immortal that I took the time to communicate with or report to regularly responded to me professionally and with dignity.  Once drifer reasons #1 and #2 were in play, though, I became guilty of not putting that effort for communication forward. 

4.  Account notes - I made the mistake of asking for mine.  The first couple I read made me giddy with pride and just about threw out my shoulder trying to pat myself on the back.  Then I get to another couple that seemed unfair and out of context.  With the good notes, I figured whoever wrote this must be not only brilliant and empathic but a genuine judge of fine roleplaying ability.   They saw exactly what I wanted them to see, even if I didn't know it at the time.  With the negative notes, this Imm obviously was having a bad day and not only didn't like me but had something personal against my character and chosen clan.  Unprofessional, cowardly even!  Why didn't they just email me and ask me to explain why I was so obviously misunderstood.   (See a pattern there?)   Guess which notes made the most impact on me?   I tend to have very, very long-lived characters (even when I play consistently).  After keeping a PC alive for one, two years IRL and being faithful to the rules, contributing to the environment and the game, imagine what it feels like to have as that character's legacy a negative and anonymous one-line note permanently attached to your character.  When that happened to me, I quit putting so much into my PCs.  The countless emails and accolades, encouragement and support from my clan Imms meant nothing at that point.   It was like baking a single teaspoon of dog crap into a beautiful chocolate cake.  I'm not yet hungry enough to take a bite of that cake.


Those are my top 4, I think.  I haven't quit the game permanently (does anyone ever?).  I hope that none of those reasons were taken as criticisms - especially against this volunteer staff who have maintained a game that has brought a lot of fun into my life.  I play now and enjoy playing now, but I'll drift again.  Because of that, I actively avoid leadership roles.  I avoid playing any more significant characters.  I get my fix, I am naive enough to reach for that same feeling of immersion and significance that I felt when I first pointed to the map.  But the buzz doesn't last like it used to.  Every so often, after a long dry spell of not playing, I will log on and be intrigued by a character or situation in game.  That keeps me around for a while.  When the routine begins to feel like a grind, though, or I get tempted to start contributing again . . . then I find myself fading back.  I'll quit logging in and just read the boards until I stop even doing that.   

So what were your drifter confessions - you who are being discussed and alluded to?   

(e: sp fix)

[RogueGunslinger]

"Veteran drift"?

No it doesn't exist. No it's not a problem. And if it were, there would be nothing reasonable we could do about it. I believe.

[zanthalandreams]

Momma always said I was a unique little snowflake.  There's much better discussion threads elsewhere on if there is a problem or not.  I'm more interested in hearing from folks that have drifted and why.

[manonfire]

It exists.

It's a problem.

There's nothing anyone can do about it. Reviving an interest in the game is upon the player's shoulders. As much as a player wants to believe the world has changed (and not them), it's their responsibility to enjoy the game, whatever the incarnation. Individual players cannot change the game, but get enough like-minded people together, and the magic comes back.

[staggerlee]

"Veteran drift"?

No it doesn't exist. No it's not a problem. And if it were, there would be nothing reasonable we could do about it. I believe.

Well, since it's a game, "losing players" is inevitable and perhaps desirable. People will burn out. Making a big deal out of quitting, or other people quitting, strikes me as silly.
Back when I started MUDing I tried dramatically storming out of a few MUDs, eventually I came to and realized just why it doesn't have the impact I thought it would.

The game goes on. New faces rise up, old ones vanish. People leave, people come back. Things change, and nothing is the same as it was a year ago, five years ago, or fifteen years ago.

If the playerbase didn't change the game would be stagnant. Might as well accept it and go back to having fun.
Sure it's desirable for the playerbase as a whole to remain somewhat cohesive and slowly grow, but I'm told that size isn't everything.

I will say again that I wish there were more ways to remain actively involved with low time commitments, so as to hang onto people like zanthalandreams that have graduated college and found themselves with lives... but other than that? I think the system works.


Veteran players that leave will always be missed, and welcomed when they return. But the game keeps on rocking without them.

[a strange shadow]

#3 and #4 are the most preventable, on both player and staff side. Communication is the key.

[staggerlee]

#3 and #4 are the most preventable, on both player and staff side. Communication is the key.

I  do absolutely agree with that. I'm a big fan of communication. A lot of bitterness and paranoia results from poor communication.
I could ramble about text as a medium, but everyone already knows I'm a nerd. You get the idea.

[Clearsighted]

Great read, OP.

I drifted away for more than a year after the Announcement as well.

I also felt much the same way when I got my account notes for the first time. There were a couple things written on it that were just plain wrong, or at least suggested that whoever had been watching, had begun observing mid-scene and missed everything before that. That bothered me quite a bit at the time.

If an Imm is going to take the time to write a negative account note, can't they at least spare a few seconds to toss a message to the player, so that if nothing else, they can improve?

[Rahnevyn]

Great OP, and as someone else said, yes. Communication is key. Nothing we can do about 1, and the decision and consequences of 2 have already been made, but as for 3 and 4, we definitely can always work to improve player relations.

[Fathi]

I've been on the verge of giving up the game for a while now, and I think the OP makes some excellent points. I don't really think I need to elaborate on them more than it's already been said.

Another situation that tends to cause a lack of interest in veteran players of any game--and was probably the main reason for losing them at the game I used to admin for--is the feeling of "been there, done that." Not that this is why I've lost interest in Armageddon, but I imagine it would apply to a lot of players who've been playing for five, ten, or more years and have played literally dozens of characters. While there probably aren't many players who have played every character archetype and been to every corner of the map, it's easy to feel that way after a string of particularly prolific or long-lived PCs.

And I think the biggest problem with Armageddon (and the reason why I'm not sure the game and I can continue to be friends) is simply the fact that if you want to play a character that gets involved with anything, progresses in their coded skills, maintains relationships with other characters, and maintains relationships with other clans, the expectation for playtime is, in my opinion, far too high. This ties into the OP's #1 reason--there just don't seem to be many roles in Arm that can be fulfilling in any way unless you have 10, 15, 20+ hours a week to contribute to the game.

It sucks to not log on for three days (which doesn't seem like a terribly long break to me at all) and find out that your clannies have divided your stuff amongst themselves and told all your secrets to the public because they decided you were dead.

It sucks to have your character's achievements and contributions to their clan or city be overlooked simply because you aren't able to play as often as some of your contemporaries. And unfortunately, it makes sense that these things happen and I don't really have a solution for it.

I've been advised that if I don't have much time to play, 'flavour' or 'throw-away' PCs are my best bet, but there only seems to be so many of those one can make and still be remotely entertained. I find myself not wanting to put any effort into my concepts or roleplay because in the end, I don't really have time to fully immerse myself in them and the game (and other PCs) don't really acknowledge them simply because I can't devote dozens of hours to playing.

Edited for clarity.

[zanthalandreams]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not looking for answers or fixes.  I just decided to examine what caused me to drift away to see if the same factors were playing into anyone else's gaming.   Anyone who reads past the second sentence knows I'm not even asking if there's a problem.   

Should I, in the spirit of full disclosure, admit that I'm not even in the process of a drift? I'm playing now and enjoying myself immensely.   Part of what has me logging on is that I've found something new to do in the game . . . and I'm able to feed a baby in my lap and play at the same time.  It is amazing how "that damn computer" can turn into your wife's best friend if you just add a boppy pillow and burp rag to the scene.   

Editing to add - even the use of 'drift' implies a lazy sort of return trip back to the game.  Otherwise we'd call it something more permanent or dramatic like veteran hemorrhaging or veteran shrinkage. 

[Prince Prig]

The huge amount of time required on each character to get anything lasting done, only to have them die and start all over again right when you thought you were about to get somewhere with your progress.

[Betaal]

The huge amount of time required on each character to get anything lasting done, only to have them die and start all over again right when you thought you were about to get somewhere with your progress.

Isn't this a double edged sword though?  Wouldn't reducing or minimizing the time and effort required on a given character to get anything lasting done trivialize the sense of accomplishment or make it seem a bit less special because it wasn't achieved through a challenging and length set of steps?

One question I pose to you (general you) is this, "Why do we expect people's playing patterns to be linear?"  It seems much more natural for veteran players to drift in and out of the game as RL issues that impact their free time, they get the desire to play out a certain character concept or achieve a specific goal, or have their taste for gaming swing back to the experience Armageddon MUD provides?

I do think there are issues that can be improved upon to limit elements of veteran or player drift, but I don't know that there needs to be a solution.  I have played Armageddon MUD longer than any other video game I've ever owned, and more consistently than any other game period.  I've taken lengthy breaks during that tenure, for a multitude of reasons, but I've always come back when I was ready to play.

It feels natural to drift.  Is it truly a bad thing?

[Moofassa]

Meh, I left and came back. I left for a good year. Then I felt like living my life as an elf for a day and I'm back. I love the game. To me it boils down to this: I don't care about my karma, I don't really care about account note, I play to have fun. Veterans drift because they start seeing a lack of excitement and fun. Meh, shit happens. Some come back, some don't.



Diclaimer: I play by the rules, I think. Wait, am I drunk?

[Medena]

I left for a year too. Didn't drift away, just left. I wasn't mad or disgruntled, I just decided I had to go. Didn't tell anyone and blocked all the Arm'ers I knew from AIM. In fact, I think I stopped using AIM.

Almost exactly a year later, I started logging into the GDB from work on my lunch hour. About two weeks later, I was back playing Arm.

And have had a great time ever since.

- The End -

[Riev]

I left for a year too. Didn't drift away, just left. I wasn't mad or disgruntled, I just decided I had to go. Didn't tell anyone and blocked all the Arm'ers I knew from AIM. In fact, I think I stopped using AIM.

Almost exactly a year later, I started logging into the GDB from work on my lunch hour. About two weeks later, I was back playing Arm.

And have had a great time ever since.

- The End -

While I'm definitely NOT a 10yr vet or anything of the sort, I still have been taking random breaks here and there. One for a year, another for a few months. Even a week of not logging in has made me start wondering who the hell is who in my city-state.

I think it just takes some time away from the game, otherwise you DO get burned out. Its why people take vacations, but for Arm, you PROBABLY need a few months, especially you people with like 60d played characters back to back.

[Clearsighted]

The huge amount of time required on each character to get anything lasting done, only to have them die and start all over again right when you thought you were about to get somewhere with your progress.

Isn't this a double edged sword though?  Wouldn't reducing or minimizing the time and effort required on a given character to get anything lasting done trivialize the sense of accomplishment or make it seem a bit less special because it wasn't achieved through a challenging and length set of steps?

One question I pose to you (general you) is this, "Why do we expect people's playing patterns to be linear?"  It seems much more natural for veteran players to drift in and out of the game as RL issues that impact their free time, they get the desire to play out a certain character concept or achieve a specific goal, or have their taste for gaming swing back to the experience Armageddon MUD provides?

I do think there are issues that can be improved upon to limit elements of veteran or player drift, but I don't know that there needs to be a solution.  I have played Armageddon MUD longer than any other video game I've ever owned, and more consistently than any other game period.  I've taken lengthy breaks during that tenure, for a multitude of reasons, but I've always come back when I was ready to play.

It feels natural to drift.  Is it truly a bad thing?

Dunno. Sometimes, it can be frustrating to wait so long to do something, that many of those who started off with the same dream, ended up dying just to natural attrition. Talking like, several months here.

[a strange shadow]

Several months... I've worked on the same kerflugging plot for over a year, with nothing doing.

To be fair, blame falls on player turnover as well as lack of staff response, but the two factors together made for a frustrating time with something that should not have been so complicated, at least not in the manner of "keeping it alive". The plot itself could have been as complicated as it liked, but just keeping it going took all my effort. Finally it just... died, and I admit I breathed a sigh of relief.

[staggerlee]

I've been on the verge of giving up the game for a while now, and I think the OP makes some excellent points. I don't really think I need to elaborate on them more than it's already been said.

Another situation that tends to cause a lack of interest in veteran players of any game--and was probably the main reason for losing them at the game I used to admin for--is the feeling of "been there, done that." Not that this is why I've lost interest in Armageddon, but I imagine it would apply to a lot of players who've been playing for five, ten, or more years and have played literally dozens of characters. While there probably aren't many players who have played every character archetype and been to every corner of the map, it's easy to feel that way after a string of particularly prolific or long-lived PCs.

And I think the biggest problem with Armageddon (and the reason why I'm not sure the game and I can continue to be friends) is simply the fact that if you want to play a character that gets involved with anything, progresses in their coded skills, maintains relationships with other characters, and maintains relationships with other clans, the expectation for playtime is, in my opinion, far too high. This ties into the OP's #1 reason--there just don't seem to be many roles in Arm that can be fulfilling in any way unless you have 10, 15, 20+ hours a week to contribute to the game.

It sucks to not log on for three days (which doesn't seem like a terribly long break to me at all) and find out that your clannies have divided your stuff amongst themselves and told all your secrets to the public because they decided you were dead.

It sucks to have your character's achievements and contributions to their clan or city be overlooked simply because you aren't able to play as often as some of your contemporaries. And unfortunately, it makes sense that these things happen and I don't really have a solution for it.

I've been advised that if I don't have much time to play, 'flavour' or 'throw-away' PCs are my best bet, but there only seems to be so many of those one can make and still be remotely entertained. I find myself not wanting to put any effort into my concepts or roleplay because in the end, I don't really have time to fully immerse myself in them and the game (and other PCs) don't really acknowledge them simply because I can't devote dozens of hours to playing.

Edited for clarity.

I think that we enormously limit our player base because of this, and burn out our best and brightest players.
I absolutely agree with the concern here, and it's something that I've rarely if ever seen addressed on a MUD, and never here. It's a pity too, because I'd like to see the game support a player base outside of college/highschools, people on disability, or people that can play from work. We're really limiting ourself that way, and I think it's one of the largest reasons for this "drift."

[Reiloth]

I've been on the verge of giving up the game for a while now, and I think the OP makes some excellent points. I don't really think I need to elaborate on them more than it's already been said.

Another situation that tends to cause a lack of interest in veteran players of any game--and was probably the main reason for losing them at the game I used to admin for--is the feeling of "been there, done that." Not that this is why I've lost interest in Armageddon, but I imagine it would apply to a lot of players who've been playing for five, ten, or more years and have played literally dozens of characters. While there probably aren't many players who have played every character archetype and been to every corner of the map, it's easy to feel that way after a string of particularly prolific or long-lived PCs.

And I think the biggest problem with Armageddon (and the reason why I'm not sure the game and I can continue to be friends) is simply the fact that if you want to play a character that gets involved with anything, progresses in their coded skills, maintains relationships with other characters, and maintains relationships with other clans, the expectation for playtime is, in my opinion, far too high. This ties into the OP's #1 reason--there just don't seem to be many roles in Arm that can be fulfilling in any way unless you have 10, 15, 20+ hours a week to contribute to the game.

It sucks to not log on for three days (which doesn't seem like a terribly long break to me at all) and find out that your clannies have divided your stuff amongst themselves and told all your secrets to the public because they decided you were dead.

It sucks to have your character's achievements and contributions to their clan or city be overlooked simply because you aren't able to play as often as some of your contemporaries. And unfortunately, it makes sense that these things happen and I don't really have a solution for it.

I've been advised that if I don't have much time to play, 'flavour' or 'throw-away' PCs are my best bet, but there only seems to be so many of those one can make and still be remotely entertained. I find myself not wanting to put any effort into my concepts or roleplay because in the end, I don't really have time to fully immerse myself in them and the game (and other PCs) don't really acknowledge them simply because I can't devote dozens of hours to playing.

Edited for clarity.

I think that we enormously limit our player base because of this, and burn out our best and brightest players.
I absolutely agree with the concern here, and it's something that I've rarely if ever seen addressed on a MUD, and never here. It's a pity too, because I'd like to see the game support a player base outside of college/highschools, people on disability, or people that can play from work. We're really limiting ourself that way, and I think it's one of the largest reasons for this "drift."

Staggerlee --- Fathi --- I salute you for this honesty. I believe the quality of a person's play, and not the quantity, should be considered always in Armageddon. Just because they are around all the time does not mean the character is well-fleshed out, deep, well-played, or important. Just because they aren't around all the time doesn't mean the player is lazy, the player doesn't care, the player doesn't want to be involved, or the character is a slack-off.

This is a video game, people. We play it to have fun, not to have homework, or feel forced to log in more often than absolutely neccesary(edit: Or more than you want to! To have fun! Or until your girlfriend beats you to death with a sledgehammer!). That's why people plan meetings, with OOC times, or RPT's, weeks in advance.

[Gimfalisette]

I believe the quality of a person's play, and not the quantity, should be considered always in Armageddon. Just because they are around all the time does not mean the character is well-fleshed out, deep, well-played, or important. Just because they aren't around all the time doesn't mean the player is lazy, the player doesn't care, the player doesn't want to be involved, or the character is a slack-off.

I don't think that most players who play a lot are thinking this of those who don't play as often. I think it's just a natural side effect of there being disparity in playtimes--those who play more get more attention and involvement simply because they're around.

I don't have a good solution to making the game more fun or involving for those with less playtime (or even off-peakers, who suffer a little from the same phenomena). Although I think, possibly, that adding stuff to the game that puts certain things under direct PC control--like PC-owned shops that can be pre-stocked, expanding literacy, other stuff mentioned for 2.ARM--might help. Then even if you can't meet Amos in the virtual flesh because playtimes don't mesh, you can still interact through items and code.

[Gimfalisette]

Adding another note: I too suffer from the drifting thing, and have for about the past year. For myself, it's partly about the quantity of time required to really be involved in the game, but it's also about the challenge I find (or don't find) in the game. I'm not a raw noob anymore, and I need fresh challenges, but they are hard to find in my preferred area of the game (political and social RP).

[RogueGunslinger]

Adding another note: I too suffer from the drifting thing, and have for about the past year. For myself, it's partly about the quantity of time required to really be involved in the game, but it's also about the challenge I find (or don't find) in the game. I'm not a raw noob anymore, and I need fresh challenges, but they are hard to find in my preferred area of the game (political and social RP).

This is the problem I have with the game. It seems that every other rp'er I run into doesn't challenge me as a player anymore.

[zanthalandreams]

No it's not a problem.

This is the problem I have with the game. It seems that every other rp'er I run into doesn't challenge me as a player anymore.

So elaborate a little on this - because I think the two are related.   Do you think these non-challenging roleplayers are folks like me who are actively refusing (for OOC reasons) rising up to a significant role?  Or do you think that it is just a general 'kids these days' thing where the standards are lowering? 

My thinking is that it is the former. 

[jhunter]

The time it requires. Sometimes, as much as I love this game it just becomes too much of a long term investment in order to progress with plots or in a coded sense. When your time becomes limited you start creating roles that don't necessarily get your character involved in things and then your enjoyment of the game suffers because you aren't as involved.
At least that's what it's been like for me off and on the last couple of years. Being a parent to a young child is a big part of it too. I surely do miss when I could invest the time in a character and get involved in things more like I once used to.

[number13]

Although I think, possibly, that adding stuff to the game that puts certain things under direct PC control--like PC-owned shops that can be pre-stocked, expanding literacy, other stuff mentioned for 2.ARM--might help. Then even if you can't meet Amos in the virtual flesh because playtimes don't mesh, you can still interact through items and code.

Agreed.  Going further -- being able to put in buy orders for resources/items, or posting somewhat generic contracts to merc organizations.

[RogueGunslinger]

No it's not a problem.

This is the problem I have with the game. It seems that every other rp'er I run into doesn't challenge me as a player anymore.

So elaborate a little on this - because I think the two are related.   Do you think these non-challenging roleplayers are folks like me who are actively refusing (for OOC reasons) rising up to a significant role?  Or do you think that it is just a general 'kids these days' thing where the standards are lowering? 

My thinking is that it is the former. 

Sorry I missed this.

I believe it's more of a problem that I started out playing with some great Roleplayers, and since I haven't been able to find a niche I like. It raised my expectations, and I guess real quality roleplayers, one that bring out everyone elses ability to roleplay well, are few and far between. Not the fault of the general population, just that I was spoiled with being around a couple of those 'RP enticing players' when I first played.

[Gimfalisette]

I believe it's more of a problem that I started out playing with some great Roleplayers, and since I haven't been able to find a niche I like. It raised my expectations, and I guess real quality roleplayers, one that bring out everyone elses ability to roleplay well, are few and far between. Not the fault of the general population, just that I was spoiled with being around a couple of those 'RP enticing players' when I first played.

I suspect as you go on you'll continue to find other RPers here and there who do challenge you with their RP--as in, maybe they are really great with using VNPCs or portraying the environment or emoting or whatever. I know that time-to-time, this does still happen for me.

However, another thing to do is to become the one who challenges; push yourself and thereby push others. This could mean taking up a leadership role, special apping something, focusing on leading plots in game, etc.

[Krath]

Great Post by the OP.

I Agree 100% with 3 and 4. Why cant IMMs just ask you what the fuck you are doing before giving you a bad not? It is disheartening when you have a player
that is contributing and because they dont play the way or rp the way an IMM should you get a bad not regardless of what your motives are.

I dunno, Well My question to the imms is, Why cant you ask for clarity through email or a wish before you give a bad note?

[Armaddict]

I dunno, Well My question to the imms is, Why cant you ask for clarity through email or a wish before you give a bad note?

I've actually had it happen, albeit not often.  One time, my smartass reply resulted in the instant death of a character, a heart attack emote forced before it happened.  The other time I was given a polite reply thanking me and saying carry on.

I do think that emails would be an awesome way to fix it, though.  However...keep in mind, please, that this could result in a lot of meaningless work for staff.  -Everyone- who gets a bad note would end up defending against it.  I bet it would become a fairly constant thing.

Bad account notes, while bad, are not really -that- bad in my experience.  I have a lot of them.  A -lot-.  I've been playing for awhile, and a lot of those times I was not exactly the shining beacon of amazing role-play or politics.  This results in me being watched carefully if something I'm doing looks suspicious, which I don't particularly mind, and -can- lead to problems with a special application.  That latter case, however, has not been prevalent for me.  I have yet to be turned down for a role based off of it, and as mentioned, I have a lot.

So, as far as account notes go...I wouldn't put that much stock behind it, personally.  It's great to be noticed, and it sucks when something is misinterpreted, but I really don't think it's something to be taken as the -main- subject of 'grading' by staff.  That's all it is.  Notes.  Like the notes in class, not the tests.

[zanthalandreams]

That really wasn't my point with the notes.  It was that after, I think, two years?  RL years now, not game years, playing the same character and being involved in all sorts of things and accomplishing all sorts of accomplishments - that the only legacy was a negative note.  'Gee,' thought I, 'Perhaps all that effort was not appreciated.  Maybe I should've been working on that cure for cancer instead.'  I'm not complaining.  I'm not even all that tore up about it.  The original post is just exploring what tended to cause me to drift away from the game for long stretches of time. 

Here in the real world, I interview people.  For hiring, for promotions, for transfers, etc.  If all I have on an individual is a review with a single negative comment after a multi-year employment - I don't automatically think this person is a bad employee.  I do think they have failed to be anything other than average, and likely annoyed their boss while doing so.   Whether their boss is World's Best Boss or not, I am not as eager to go with that applicant as I would be someone with a more positive track record of reviews. 

It isn't a stretch to think that applies to how other promotions (karma) or hiring (special apps) are handled here.

[Doppelganger]

I am not sure if it was zalanthandreams' case, but I find it odd that often notes and even karma affecting decisions come from people who had nothing to do with my character's clan. That kind of surprise is not always an unpleasant one and I keep in mind possibilty of playing alongside with avatar, who knows about my character more than my clan staff does. But sometimes I do wonder why virgins teach me how to fuck, particular clan roleplay-wise.

I would like to see one resulting comment from clan (or unclanned) staff that sums up general impression and all comments that come along the way. I think it should apply to average or long lived characters, say, starting with 10 or even 20 playdays. Even if it is still based on one and only offhand comment, it would be easier for me to adapt to it if I knew that note was cross checked by clan staffer, who actually reads clan docs and board, probably has some personal experience with clan or/and role and who had a chance to watch a character in question more than once.

Another thing. I have impression that anonymous notes to accounts are no longer done, but, just in case some staffers do it, I ask to reconsider. You don't have to read my reply to your note, much less answer it, but at least give me a chance to write it. It's healthier that way, seriously.

[HunterKiller]

4.  Account notes - I made the mistake of asking for mine...

I really have to agree with you, but not because your notes were negative. It's not relevant what the imms or other players think of you, the most accurate and relevant feedback you'll receive on your roleplay will be in the game and ultimately by yourself. Receptive players improve because their character's actions are positively or negatively interpreted correctly. Usually the incentive in the game is to be a "good" roleplayer (however you define that) because you get to do more - again, define "more" by your preferences. The whole business of karma, account notes, etc. has its place among administration and perhaps if you're interested in what others think of you, but ultimately imms and other players are just people. Some "good" imms are boobs sometimes and say and do stupid things just like players. Some "bad" imms sometimes do great things, albeit probably accidentally. There are players on here who've started huge clans on their own, have teamed up and been a part of some really cool story lines - do you think they've received bad account notes? You bet, perhaps more bad than good.

The above is important to realize not because of some game but because it's true in real-life. The most valuable & memorable people are those who follow their own path and are often rejected by those who've been in the mix the longest. That's just the way it is. Negativity can be learned from but only if you see real value in what that negativity is, not from who said it. Other times people just won't like you, nothing personal. Sometimes those people will be imms, so? Assholes are like opinions ...  everyone has one. Are you trying to gain their acceptance because of some special guild you're trying to play? Are you grooming yourself to be a part of the imm club? Real feedback is much less obvious and more long-term than some dippy note someone probably wrote immediately after the fact.

If negative imm opinion still bothers you, take heart in the fact that "good" imms can differentiate between relevant and non-relevant feedback.

Arm's just a game. Work up a character where you can have fun with them. If someone else's opinion truly matters to you, become a servant so you can be told how to do things correctly.

- HK

[zanthalandreams]

Yes and, well, thank you HK.  But I think you missed my point.   

[RogueGunslinger]

My account notes got me into playing the game again...

[Kiri]

I left because after months of struggling with clan  IMM neglect and favoritism, I filied a formal complaint that never REALLY got resolved. Extra staff was assigned, but there was still no help, no answer to my pleas for suggestions or direction. There was ONE NPC animation, which didn't really result in anything but my PC being patted on the head and being told basically that she was being replaced by an apped PC.

There were critical issues that never got dealt with IC. Quite frankly, I felt like I was being stalled because the IMMs didn't want to take IC action against the other PCs involved.

The final straw was when, after several emails asking for help dealing with an OOC issue that had to be dealt with IC, I was ignored in favor of a demand for OOC information about my character's personal life (Information I withheld deliberately, as I did not trust the information to get "leaked" via NPCs).

It's pretty discouraging when you KNOW you could improve what you're doing in your role, and ask for help moving in that direction, and instead get ignored or persecuted. And then replaced by an "apped" PC.

[Semper]

Try Arm again in a little bit. Lot's of changes happening with staffing and the game that may limit such experiences like your own, Kiri.

[Fnord]

These are very challenging issues to "fix", if there even is a fix. I can appreciate discussing them though. I've quit before as a result of frustration, and am currently simply taking a break due to being busy RL. It happens to players and imms alike.

In my experience, roles dependent on immortal assistance are the biggest double-edged sword. I was at the heart of a series of plots with a group of players about a year ago that had the most immortal support I've ever seen. It was major, shape-the-world type stuff. Eventually there was a break down, the pivotal PC died, and it set in motion an IC shit storm of epic proportions. There was also a lot of OOC resentment, frustration, etc. I imagine it was also extremely frustrating for the immortals that invested so much time.

By contrast, I've seen more cases of leaders that need imm support but don't get it, ending in frustration, retirement, etc. It's all too easy to judge these situations, except being an imm is a volunteer service, and they probably have their reasons for not being as tangibly involved as some players feel they need to be.

Then there's the issue of "been there, done that" for veteran players. Solution? Be a leader, change the world, make it a more fulfilling place for all around you; but then you run the risk of one of the two scenarios above... a major catch for veteran players considering sponsored roles... which may result in less veteran players taking key sponsored roles... but I've no data to back that up. Gimf?

In the end, the happiest players that I know, in general, are in roles that do not largely depend on the imms. They tend to be leaders, or at least plot developers IC. This small handful of people also seems to be fairly diplomatic when it comes to actually needing the imms, and tend to get the help they need. Why they get that help could be a result of many factors. Maybe the player is simply liked or respected, maybe their imms are very active, maybe because they don't ask for much help it's easier to give when they do. Who knows? What I do know is they just kind of do their thing, regardless of the imms, or maybe in a Zen-like harmony with them, so they can be left alone and trusted to weave their plots.

It's up to each person to figure out how to keep Armageddon the entertainment that it's supposed to be, but that's the recipe most of  the happiest Arm players that I know follow. YMMV.