Crafting and Stamina

[Chettaman]

Wouldn't it be cool if crafting took away from your stamina. Like forage and what-not?

[Chettaman]

Searching for branches in a desert sounds pretty tough, but sawing a log of wood can be pretty tiring too.

[Lakota]

Searching for branches in a desert sounds pretty tough, but sawing a log of wood can be pretty tiring too.

You're right.

I feel bad for all the merchants who enjoy spamcrafting if this gets implemented though. 

[Halcyon]

It'd have to be a heck of a drain, since you can perform most crafts while resting.

[AJM]

> Dry flower

> You are too tired to do that.

think Blast.

[Chettaman]

Hmm... indeed. Or not... I mean, you can eat and your ... 'food meter' slowly goes down. Maybe if crafting stops stamina regen.

[Marauder Moe]

Why would this be cool?

[Lakota]

For the same reason losing up to 40% of your max stun when utilizing a few skills is cool?

Apparently, Moe has just drawn the proverbial line. It had to happen sometime.

[Clearsighted]

Stun drain is the only logical solution. Because you're like, not aware and stuff, of your surroundings, when crafting.

[FantasyWriter]

I would like stamina drain if it reflected the amount of work:

sawing a log into 5-7 planks 10-15 stam
skinning a mekillot or bahamet 10-15 stam
crafting a branch into a arrow shaft 3-5 stam



Also, on a different note, I think "hunt" should take a point or two of stamina like forage does, you are--after all--kneeling down to get a good look at the underbrush or whatnot.

[Chettaman]

I would like stamina drain if it reflected the amount of work:

sawing a log into 5-7 planks 10-15 stam
skinning a mekillot or bahamet 10-15 stam
crafting a branch into a arrow shaft 3-5 stam

Indeed.

aww... the realism is my favorite part.
Maybe for D.elves, and the subguild, Hunter, the drain shouldn't apply. Since, hunting is part of the desert elf way, and hunting to the hunter would seem obvious.

[SMuz]

Heh, maybe we should make it so that you could only craft things when your Bladder, Energy, Fun, Social, and Hunger are high enough. That would be more realistic.

> craft (stuff) into (object)
You don't feel like crafting anything cool right now.

Seriously, though, stamina is well.. irrelevant, unless you're an elf trying to craft something out in the deserts/woods. And it doesn't even make the game much more fun.

I get the drain on obsidian mining/woodcutting because of the potential abuse. But crafting - the lag and compulsory emoting is already an inhibitor in itself. Also a seemingly minor change like stamina drain could have a significant impact on the Zalanthan economy

[Chettaman]

> craft (stuff) into (object)
You don't feel like crafting anything cool right now.

He he. 

Have you ever sawed a log into several planks?
And yes... I suppose it might have an effect on the economy if crafters couldn't make stuff all day long. Without rest of course...

[AmandaGreathouse]

I don't think a stam drain would be cool while crafting. In fact, I think it would suck balls. Maybe just disallow crafting while resting. Doesn't -drain- stam, but you can't sit on your ass regenerating it while you are allegedly busting that ass to work. Also, I say definitely no on the hunting taking away stam. This would suck for multiple reasons. Some of them more obvious than others, depending on what you've played and where.

[Lakota]

But Amanda, it's realistic. 

[Fathi]

Maybe if spamcrafting was rampant and overrunning all aspects of the PC economy. But I don't think that's happening now, nor will it ever.

The vast majority of players are responsible enough to take breaks in their crafting without having artificial resting time imposed upon them for stamina regen.

[AmandaGreathouse]

But Amanda, it's realistic. 

Just like being able to sleep off injuries that knock you to 1 hp in the course of an IC day. 

(Nah, j/k, we all know those mutant Zalanthans have crazy regen powers!  )

[Lizzie]

Maybe if spamcrafting was rampant and overrunning all aspects of the PC economy. But I don't think that's happening now, nor will it ever.

The vast majority of players are responsible enough to take breaks in their crafting without having artificial resting time imposed upon them for stamina regen.

Actually spamcrafting -does- run rampant and overrun all aspects of the PC economy. That's why the staff is always having to make tweaks to the NPC merchant shops. How many different types of tweaks have they had to make in the past few years? I mean..before, when you all had Saturday closing, the game would come back and every crafter would make sure their inixes were loaded with all 20 boxes they made, bring them to every shop that buys them, and run the NPC merchant completely out of sids. The competition would be to see who could get to each NPC merchant first.

Some NPCs didn't run out of sids - so those were tweaked. Some wouldn't sell the boxes that they made. So those were tweaked. Some wouldn't buy the boxes they sold. So those were tweaked. Some learned that one guy kept selling 20 boxes to him. So he was tweaked to only take five - not from that guy, but five, per game reset. So now, the only people who have a CHANCE of making ANY sids at all, are the ones who show up when the merchant has sids to pay, AND hasn't already taken in 5 of each. So - now the merchants have been changed again, to randomly remove random items from their inventory, allowing other people to get in there and sell a box. Unfortunately, the spam crafters know this too, and have studied the NPCs, and know EXACTLY when that NPC is gonna reset its own inventory. Who ends up selling the 6th box? You guessed it. The spam-crafter with 20 boxes. Cause that's what spam crafters DO. It's their function. They make dozens of the same crap that PCs don't want to buy, over and over and over again, and bring them to NPCs to sell, over and over and over again. It's a science to them. And they're damned good at it.

So yes Fathi, it's a problem. But my idea of a solution would be even more gruelling for the spam-crafter, and not punishing to any crafter who actually gets a kick out of roleplay, in a group setting or solo: make certain things take longer to craft.

Making 3 planks takes awhile now..but it doesn't take any longer than making one plank. Making 3 planks doesn't -need- to take 3 times as long, but it should DEFINITELY take longer than it does now. Making 5 arrowshafts should DEFINITELY take significantly longer than it takes to make 1. In fact, I feel that *successfully* making ANYTHING should take longer than *failing* at anything. It takes seconds to snap a twig. It takes minutes to turn that twig into a dagger. You want realism, or something that vaguely resembles realism, there's where it is. It takes 3 full minutes to saw through a log..because that three minutes is including the time you run out of stamina, rest, regain it, and stand back up. Make the TIME it takes to make things, accommodate the *assumption* of stamina loss and gain. Make the stamina factor a virtual, non-coded factor, and simply include it in with the time it takes to complete a project.

And - make failures on some things take less time. It's really silly how I can spit out 7 emotes about how I'm concentrating and working diligently and being really careful, and picking the feathers with a steady hand, and then snap the arrowshaft, 2 minutes later. Just snap the fucking thing within the first 15 seconds so I can think to myself, "Today is not my day for crafting" and move on to doing something else.

[Tisiphone]

So yes Fathi, it's a problem. But my idea of a solution would be even more gruelling for the spam-crafter, and not punishing to any crafter who actually gets a kick out of roleplay, in a group setting or solo: make certain things take longer to craft.

I'm not Fathi, but I feel qualified to respond by proxy, because Fathi talked to me once, and didn't try to shoot me.

This is not a problem. Frankly, if people want to twink out the MUD in this fashion, I don't care. Let them have their fun. They aren't ruining anything for me, because they're not playing in the same sphere I am.

[AJM]

>Dry flower

> you begin to dry your flower

>You have to wait two zalanthan days, get comfy.


....


....


....


>You fail at drying the flower

think Blast.

[staggerlee]

This is off topic, but I certainly wouldn't mind a system where leaving meat or flowers our to dry took a couple zalanthan days, but didn't require that you be present at the time.

I'm always at a loss as to how to describe drying meat, fruit or flowers in seconds flat.

>craft meat dry
>emote lays the meat out in the sun and watches as the moisture evaporates with horrific speed, desiccating the flesh in seconds and leaving behind only a dry husk.

That might compliment a very, very minor stamina drain to things like "saw log." But frankly I don't care either way if crafting wants some kind of cost.

[FantasyWriter]

Drying rack objects that work off the tailor timing system but without tickets would be awesome.

[Lakota]

Something completely unnecessary was posted here, but it was removed by Nyr.  Don't troll.

[SMuz]

I know another MUD actually forces a delay on top of crafting. Crafting something takes literally 2-5 minutes, but after that, you can't craft anything for an hour. It works great for everything. Also that MUD works solo practicing into the crafting delay, so warriors could stand there alone practicing their moves when there's nobody to spar with. Yeah, that was one thing I liked about that MUD's engine.

So, yeah, I wouldn't mind seeing a person craft only one major item a Zalanthan day, and maybe a minor item every Zalanthan hour. I'd like it to be more like skinning - a short/no delay, but requiring a few emotes afterwards; might as well emote since you can't craft anything for a while.

But it is a huge change to world productivity, so yeah, someone has to do research before implementing it. And since the merchant guild relies almost entirely on it - you're really nerfing an entire class by doing something as minor as an extra delay or a stamina cost. It's similar in effect to having warriors gain a more limited amount of skill a day or pickpockets getting fined when they're caught.

[Nyr]

Thread is close to being locked.  Act mature, please.

[AmandaGreathouse]

Um... hm.... 20 boxes per RL week (per reboot)...

204 Zalanthan days and you make 20 boxes during this time... one box per 10 ten days. Doesn't seem to be a large issue.

Yes, I know, that's not counting the time we're logged off, but, really, the character doesn't cease to exist while we're logged off.

[Lizzie]

1. I wasn't talking about that magnitude of delay, with regards to an increased delay. Here's more what I had in mind:

craft thing
you can make one widget
you can make a couple of widgets
you can make a handful of widgets.

craft thing into one
You begin crafting.
You have time for one emote, and then - you have a nice pretty blue widget.

craft thing into couple
You begin crafting.
You are JUST about to hit the enter key one your first emote, but you fail, and end up only making one widget, ruining the rest of your thing.

craft thing into handful
You begin crafting.
You have time to pump out at least two really awesome emotes about how you're carefully dipping the thing into a box of dyed water to make it blue, then cracking it into smaller pieces, and carving each one up. You also have enough time to type "smile" because you're so damned proud of yourself.
And then, you have a handful of widgets!

As for the 20 boxes, I was talking about bringing as many boxes as you can actually strap on however mounts you and your noob minions are capable of handling, at one time, in a single trip, between reboots. You might have 5 trips, with 20 boxes each. 20 was an arbitrary number. Make up a different one, it wasn't intended to be the subject of nitpicking.

[Halcyon]

Rather than something that inherently changes how crafting working, how about a new crafting verb.

Ecraft (or something like it) would take all the usual arguments for a craft verb.  It would also take an emote string, and have some kind of additional separator for an emote. 

ecraft diamond gold into ring while

Ecraft might double the RT for that craft, with the emit in the middle of the time period.

[Fathi]

I think you're exaggerating about the magnitude of the spam-crafting that goes on in the game, Lizzie.

Just because somebody has that many objects to sell after a reboot doesn't necessarily mean they were spamcrafted. Especially these days, when reboots have been more than two weeks between sometimes. You can make two or three boxes per RL day that you play and still easily have twenty to sell for the weekly reboot.

I don't consider that 'spamcrafting' at all.

The same argument could be made for foraging--I've gone into shops and seen somebody walk in, sell five of a foraged item, and leave. But it's quite possible to find five of the same forageable thing in between reboots without foraging for more than ten minutes a day, so it's a little condescending to just assume that because somebody has five things to sell, it means they were spam-foraging.

Besides, my point stands: spamcrafting does exist, yes, but I don't think it's running rampant and almost every crafter PC I've ever encountered has used quite a bit of emoting to drag out their crafting process without needing artificial delays.

[Chettaman]

Indeed. I think Lizzie might of exaggerated a bit as well. But I'm not concerned so much, with the rate of things being sold. I just thought it would be cool to coded-ly get tired from crafting. I myself, have noticed the incredible amount of responsiblity shown by the players that I come in contact with, regarding how much they make and how much of it they sell. But I also havn't come into contact with every player out there. So I couldn't really say if spam crafting was having a huge effect on the economy.

mostly forage is a neccessity for crafting. So spam-crafting would require spam-foraging. But if I were a stone-crafter, and that was my life. I would be looking for rocks all day and then work those rocks into finished products for people to buy, so I could survive to do the same thing the next day.

But like I said, I just thought it would be cool to get tired, or at least not regen while crafting some things. This might even inspire some to take their materials into safe places to craft instead of crafting right where they find the materials.