Poison

[spawnloser]

It would be nice for poison to give you a chance.  A character with Absolutely Incredible endurance should be able to survive one dose of the poison commonly known as fireblood, especially since this poison is so common.  I am not interested in discussing this.  I will not discuss this.  This is my opinion and nothing will change it.

That is all.

[manonfire]

> eat tablet

[spawnloser]

> eat tablet

Oh, you're so clever.  I would never have thought of that.

I also wouldn't assume that every character has the means to get ahold of those, like people in isolated clans/areas.  I also wouldn't assume that there's always going to be a physician character in every area crafting cures.  In the life of my character (10 days) I never saw one tablet available for sale or a character capable of crafting tablets in the place my character lived... ever.  Perhaps you shouldn't assume that every player/character is a twink that does things out of character just to ensure character lifespan.  Or maybe you should suggest to the staff (instead of suggesting that I do things that many players do but I don't because I am playing my character correctly while others twink out) that they make it possible to get cures without kissing another player's plump white/yellow/black/red behind?

[Akoto]

For what it's worth (and without getting too IC), there is definitely at least one shop that regularly sells tablets, and it isn't in an isolated area. Ask around.

As well, physicians aren't the only ones who can craft tablets.

[spawnloser]

For what it's worth (and without getting too IC), there is definitely at least one shop that regularly sells tablets, and it isn't in an isolated area. Ask around.

As well, physicians aren't the only ones who can craft tablets.

I think you missed the point of my mentioning isolated people.  They are far from the shop you are thinking of, because the shop you are thinking of, as you mentioned, is not in an isolated area like those people.  It does them little good if the cures are sold in Allanak but they're in the middle of the nowhere.

Oh, and are you sure that the shop has those cures for sale before they're sold to the shop by a physician PC?

Finally, don't insult my intelligence by telling me that physicians aren't the only people that can brew tablets.  I was speaking generally.  I meant only that noone capable of brewing tablets was EVER seen by my character.  I know well who can brew them.

[Akoto]

Right. Next time, I'll keep my mouth shut and not try to be helpful. By the way, yes, I am sure the shop has cures and Nak's not what I was thinking of.

[spawnloser]

Right. Next time, I'll keep my mouth shut and not try to be helpful.

You're speaking with an obviously pissed off person and you're giving inane, advice?  Then you get upset because I say I don't want/need your advice?  I obviously don't care who can make cures or where cures are sold or if they are sold.

My point, if you go back to my first post and read it, is that someone with an AI endurance gets one dose of a COMMON poison and dies?  F'ing ridiculous.  That's what I'm talking about.  Nothing else.  Anyone trying to give me advice can suck it.  I'm sorry, but I know everything you're going to tell me.  Trust me on this.  I don't want help.  I am trying to spark discussion amongst the rest of you about the validity of the hardiest, toughest person alive dying to a poison that can be found by anyone and their kid sister.

[manonfire]

I will not discuss this.

Oops.

[Lizzie]

Well, I won't offer any advice. I have none to offer. That makes me one of "the rest of you." And to that end, my contribution to this "discussion" you're "trying to spark up" is as follows:

Awwww, too bad.

[spawnloser]

@manonfire:  I'm not discussing the point I brought up, actually.  I'm telling you to stop trying to talk to me about a completely different issue.  I'm telling you all to stop responding as if I'm as big a noob as the people responding.  See, it's like saying I won't discuss the color purple... and people start trying to tell me about orange and I tell them I didn't say anything about orange, talk about purple.  I won't discuss it, but I want everyone else to.

Additionally, see, what you did is called a distraction and doesn't add to anything.  If you're just going to try to ridicule someone because you have nothing better to do, why not try masturbation instead?  It's a lot more relaxing and reduces the spam-quotient.

@Lizzie:  What makes you one of the 'rest of you' isn't that you have no advice, but that you're not discussing the issue I brought up... that a COMMON AS DIRT poison can kill someone tougher than nails.  As for your last line, there, read above what I said to manonfire in my second paragraph.

[manonfire]

This thread is now about Goldeneye.

Shalooonsh:  No, it's not.

Continue discussion.

[spawnloser]

Or you could try not being a complete dick?  I don't know, you might find it a pleasant change.

[Shalooonsh]

Keep it civil, or I pull out the twit wand.

[jstorrie]

For someone who's not discussing it, you're sure discussing the hell out of it.

I agree, though. I'd like to see a lower-tier set of poisons introduced which are less lethal to take the place of the current 'lowest-level' poisons. Two of those lowest-level poisons are very, very lethal. The effect of one of them (vomiting) is definitely kind of ridiculous if you trigger it by, say, accidentally swallowing a gulp of sewage, which really shouldn't kill you either.

[deviant storm]

I'm sorry you lost a character, that's always kind of hard. Especially to something like poisons.

I recall getting bloodburn back in the long ago days (over four years ago) and having my hp go down to -4 hp, I think...then it went away. I managed to survive with that character. I can't speak about circumstances now because I have not encountered such things since my return and much of the game has been change in my absence.

I did lose a character to another poison once. No fun.

Frankly, I still think them's the breaks. Sometimes ginka just takes you out, whether or not your stats rock.

[Gimfalisette]

Or maybe you should suggest to the staff (instead of suggesting that I do things that many players do but I don't because I am playing my character correctly while others twink out) that they make it possible to get cures without kissing another player's plump white/yellow/black/red behind?

The shop that is in a non-isolated place which sells cures which are not made by PC physicians (meaning the shop does indeed always have cures in stock) was the result of player action. I saw a need, I filled a need. So I'm suggesting that a suggestion to take this to the staff isn't necessarily the answer; players can fix this part of the problem IC.

As to the other part of the problem, I don't have anything useful to offer about the lethality of poisons.

[Synthesis]

Never argue with someone on the GDB who just lost their character:  all that time they would've been playing is now spent goaltending their posts.

On topic:  I agree that endurance has too little effect on poison resistance.

My pet peeve:  It should be virtually impossible to successfully poison a half-giant without having them down an entire barrel full of terradin-laced brew, or injecting them with an entire cilops' gland's worth of poison.  A half-giant can weigh up to slightly over a ton...there's no reason why the same dosage that would stop an elf who weighs 130 lbs. with sand in his pockets should stop a half-giant that has 10-15 times more body mass.

Another peeve:  dwarven poison resistance?  What?  Actually implement that code, or get rid of that snippet from the docs.

[mansa]

Interesting.

>poison knife leaf
>throw knife templar


Also, I've had characters survive generic poison before.  In fact, all of mine have survived from that poison.  Maybe you're just failing your saving throws?  Did you have nosave on?

Or perhaps your character was drunk.

[Archbaron]

Also, I've had characters survive generic poison before.  In fact, all of mine have survived from that poison.  Maybe you're just failing your saving throws?  Did you have nosave on?

Or perhaps your character was drunk.

Yes, I'd like the take mansa's side here and think there was something else involved with your characters death from poison. I have also recently lost a character to poison, but it was magickal poison, so I suppose I wasn't suppose to resist it. 

[Ampere]

My pet peeve:  It should be virtually impossible to successfully poison a half-giant without having them down an entire barrel full of terradin-laced brew, or injecting them with an entire cilops' gland's worth of poison.  A half-giant can weigh up to slightly over a ton...there's no reason why the same dosage that would stop an elf who weighs 130 lbs. with sand in his pockets should stop a half-giant that has 10-15 times more body mass.

No. Assume that a skilled taint tyrant knows how to appropriately dose the varied races; it's what they do.

[X-D]

I for one have always wished the poison code was a bit more robust rather then standard diku on or off and simple scripts.  First, though some poisons should be fast acting, none should be instant. Same for the cures.

I would love if endurance actually played a noticable roll in how they act as well, other then "think Do I have enough HP to survive this?" There are no "instant" blood born poisons IRL, even some of the most powerful injected directly into an artery will take a minute or so to act.

The one called blood burn for instance, should act (IMO) like a fever for instance. have a beginning, lead up, peak, cooldown and ending. (as should all of them) How long each section lasts should be directly dependant on size and end and maybe race. Lets face it, an AI end HG should NOT feel the same affects from a human sized dose as a human should. It should take longer to peak, peak lower but take much longer to be fully rid of.

And a cure should not just instantly end the effects either, it should instead just stop advancing affects and increase the speed of cooldown and ending.

And you know, with the amazing coders and script writers we have right now, who are able to take on larger projects of less importance and utility (no matter how snazzy they are Ness/shal and company) It really should not be too hard to do.

Oh, and this...

Another peeve:  dwarven poison resistance?  What?  Actually implement that code, or get rid of that snippet from the docs.

Yes, please, one or the other.

And Ampere, Fine, then impliment that as well, you want to poison a half-giant with an arrow, have it so you have to  ep and hold 2 poison items or brew several into a heavy duty poison. because ATM, the amount is exactly the same. There should be no grey area in this part I think. A half0giant eats more, drinks more and even has to spend massive amounts of coin just to get a ten sid pair of gloves to fit him, why should an assassin have to only spend the same amount of poison on him as he would a halfling?

[Kryos]

Poison is out of whack.  I'd love to see what the other 50 or so players that I see on during rpt have to say about this, though.  Post you elusive fellows, post!

[Synthesis]

It would be nice if you could actually set the dosage when you poison your weapons.

If you plan on bringing down a half-giant/inix/mekillot, you should have to use two or three times the number of poisoning items.

[Lakota]

It would be nice if you could actually set the dosage when you poison your weapons.

If you plan on bringing down a half-giant/inix/mekillot, you should have to use two or three times the number of poisoning items.

Let's take it a step further. Poisoning the critter you're taking down will in turn have a chance of poisoning the meat, ruining it.

I'm not sure I'm fond of your idea, though I understand it and agree it makes sense from a logistical standpoint. Half-giants are larger, and thus would require a larger dosage.

One thing I don't understand is how a simple taste/sip of a poisoned object will almost always (if not 100% of the time) poison you, yet a poisoned arrow/knife has a chance of not poisoning you.

I also thing it'd be awesome if poisons like peraine did not take immediate effect. Rather, your muscles began restricting in your appendages, slowing your movement, before paralyzing you altogether. It'd at least give you time to pop a cure in your mouth in an attempt to stop it. After effects would be limited range/movement with heavy delays to roleplay that stiff leg of yours.

[Ampere]

It would be nice if you could actually set the dosage when you poison your weapons.

If you plan on bringing down a half-giant/inix/mekillot, you should have to use two or three times the number of poisoning items.

If a dart carries enough poison to bring down a human, I don't see why a knife wouldn't be sufficient for a giant.

It would be nice to have a coded means available to appropriately dose weapons; but I fear everyone would just use the maximum dose anyway. Another problem is that most weapons grade poisons are excessive in their quantity.  Perhaps that enormous sack of neurotoxin could be used on more than just the one throwing knife?

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

One thing I don't understand is how a simple taste/sip of a poisoned object will almost always (if not 100% of the time) poison you, yet a poisoned arrow/knife has a chance of not poisoning you.

Ingestion (inhalation, digestion) of any virus is way more deadly than imprecise injection.

[Lakota]

Ingestion (inhalation, digestion) of any virus is way more deadly than imprecise injection.

That so? I figured injecting a poison directly into your bloodstream would yield swift results. Especially a neck or body shot.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

That's true, but a thrown dart/knife/arrow doesn't have that great a chance to hit an artery. I said indirect injection. There is a reason crackheads aim for a vein instead of the general area of the arm.

[Lakota]

That's true, but a thrown dart/knife/arrow doesn't have that great a chance to hit an artery.

It doesn't have to. Besides, we're talking about knives that might all be tapered and thin. Some may be wide and serrated with hollow tips that better deliver poison. Some have wide edges (the entirety of which is coated in poison, mind you) that have a great chance of at least entering -one- vein, artery, or capillary network of blood vessels, seeing as how the human/humanoid body is absolutely riddled with them.

Furthermore, an experienced archery/missle thrower would likely have a great chance of hitting a rather vital section of their target's body. That's why they nail more neck shots than others, and consequently deal out far more damage. Poisoning and the chance to do so should reflect said skill, IMHO.

I said indirect injection. There is a reason crackheads aim for a vein instead of the general area of the arm.

I'm a bit confused as to what you mean by "indirect." Do you mean imprecise? A human body has not only arteries and veins but an intricate system of capillaries as well that can just as readily distribute poison to the body.

Besides, not all poisons work as fast if inhaled/ingested. I suppose we could delve into how specific poisons react in specific ways to the human body, but I don't think ArmageddonMUD's code need reflect that much depth.

[spawnloser]

The issue I bring up is not how a poison is delivered but that a readily available poison to anyone with desire to find a poison is as devestating as to kill a character that doesn't have nosave on and has an endurance at or above human maximum.  Poison, in my opinion, is too powerful... especially since magick isn't even so powerful (with some of the recent changes to certain types of spells).

[Lakota]

The issue I bring up is not how a poison is delivered but that a readily available poison to anyone with desire to find a poison is as devestating as to kill a character that doesn't have nosave on and has an endurance at or above human maximum.

Spawnloser...I feel you man. We've already agreed (well, you and myself in any case) that bloodburn, and in some cases even grishen, is a bit too beefy.

The discussion has just evolved onto other topics.

If I were you I'd simply mail the mud with a proposal of ideas. You might find the results more to your liking, seeing as how perusing the GDB backup/support usually yields nothing in your (generally speaking, nothing personal) favor.

Poison, in my opinion, is too powerful... especially since magick isn't even so powerful (with some of the recent changes to certain types of spells).

Eh, you have a point, but to be fair the spells you are likely referencing are, once they land, instadeath for the character on the receiving end (unless your magicker is just raiding). There's a big difference between mundane poisons and magickal spells. No one said there has been or should be a balance. Nessalin himself has stated this before, if I am not mistaken.

[spawnloser]

Issue 1:  Poison is available to anyone with 0 karma.  Magick requires karma.
Issue 2:  I have USED the spells I've referenced and NEVER killed another PC by my use of them because I think it doesn't add to the game, unlike those that seek only to win.
Issue 3:  Why mail the mud when I want the players to discuss this issue so that there is more than one person's opinion to be listened to?
Issue 4:  If the discussion has evolved to other topics, why not take those other topics to other threads?

[Only He Stands There]

When rugged muls die of bloodburn, something's wrong. I agree with spawnloser.

[Clearsighted]

Issue 1:  Poison is available to anyone with 0 karma.  Magick requires karma.
Issue 2:  I have USED the spells I've referenced and NEVER killed another PC by my use of them because I think it doesn't add to the game, unlike those that seek only to win.
Issue 3:  Why mail the mud when I want the players to discuss this issue so that there is more than one person's opinion to be listened to?
Issue 4:  If the discussion has evolved to other topics, why not take those other topics to other threads?

Sounds like someone's magicker died to some poison not too long ago.

Bloodburn is already weak enough to be almost inconsequential. And there are a myriad ways to overcome poison. Fully half the mundane classes have some means to make the tablets eventually.

It seems you want to make poison weak enough to where you don't even need to carry tablets half the time, and nothing that will inconvenience you longer than it takes your spells to whack your would be poisoner.

I don't have any pity for someone if they're so ISO that they can't possibly get a tablet from one of the four or five NPC shops (at least one in a very isolated location) or make a single contact. It's just a risk they take. And I think it is lame to suggest in the same post that those who do go out of their way to cover that eventuality are somehow twinking.

[Dar]

I agree with clearsighted. There are many guilds who have the ability to overcome poison. I can think of atleast 4 which have a variable degree of methods that can make any poison except heramide/pereine to be near irrelevent.

So personally, I disagree that poisons are too powerful. What I do not like about poisons is how 'easilly' are they procured. Common and Terradin poisons is 'very' easy to procure, and do so in great quantities at that.  But then again, making cures for them is also very easy.

I'm a bit puzzled about it though, because I heard of people 'enduring' common poison, but never done it before. Maybe it was a bit 'exaggerated'.

As for Spawnloser. Bud, the core of the issue is that your character had very little contact with anybody else. That put you in a great deal of disadvantage. Including lack of antidotes, lack of good armor, lack of good weapons, lack of anything that you yourself couldnt make. You shouldnt blame the poison, you should blame your tribemates (if this was of a tribe), who've failed to create a reasonable supply of antidotes for their buddies. Or you should blame the harsh rules of the tribe, for generally making people survive on their own, exercising survival of the fittest. Your character ... wasnt the fittest. But I might be off, since I do not know IC events.

[Lakota]

Poison is available to anyone with 0 karma.  Magick requires karma.

So? It's relatively easy to acquire tablets man. If you've got a little over fifty 'sid you can buy one.

Issue 2:  I have USED the spells I've referenced and NEVER killed another PC by my use of them because I think it doesn't add to the game, unlike those that seek only to win.

Then you're better than half the tards out there with karma. I congratulate you.

Issue 3:  Why mail the mud when I want the players to discuss this issue so that there is more than one person's opinion to be listened to?

Because discussing the issue with players often times solves nothing. The playerbase does not control the code. Email Morgenes.

Issue 4:  If the discussion has evolved to other topics, why not take those other topics to other threads?

Maybe because the thread has evolved and moved on to other topics? Why not be more polite in your posts, as opposed to expressing yourself in such an abrasive and confrontational manner. You might not make many friends, or care to for that matter, but people might respect you more, and in turn be more inclined to hear you out. A little courtesy goes a long way.

[spawnloser]

Bud, the core of the issue is that your character had very little contact with anybody else. That put you in a great deal of disadvantage. Including lack of antidotes, lack of good armor, lack of good weapons, lack of anything that you yourself couldnt make. You shouldnt blame the poison, you should blame your tribemates (if this was of a tribe), who've failed to create a reasonable supply of antidotes for their buddies. Or you should blame the harsh rules of the tribe, for generally making people survive on their own, exercising survival of the fittest. Your character ... wasnt the fittest. But I might be off, since I do not know IC events.

So I should blame everyone else that played with me that didn't produce... when their characters did not have the skill?  That sounds just as productive as blaming you personally for not coming to my character to provide the cures.  I like this plan.  It's your fault.

Oh, and Lakota, I am direct.  I have a problem.  I state it.  You have a problem with me doing so, don't clutter up a thread about what I see an issue.  Stay on topic.  Oh, and don't defend people for derailing a thread.  Threads have subjects for a reason on a discussion board.

[Clearsighted]

Bud, the core of the issue is that your character had very little contact with anybody else. That put you in a great deal of disadvantage. Including lack of antidotes, lack of good armor, lack of good weapons, lack of anything that you yourself couldnt make. You shouldnt blame the poison, you should blame your tribemates (if this was of a tribe), who've failed to create a reasonable supply of antidotes for their buddies. Or you should blame the harsh rules of the tribe, for generally making people survive on their own, exercising survival of the fittest. Your character ... wasnt the fittest. But I might be off, since I do not know IC events.

So I should blame everyone else that played with me that didn't produce... when their characters did not have the skill?  That sounds just as productive as blaming you personally for not coming to my character to provide the cures.  I like this plan.  It's your fault.

Oh, and Lakota, I am direct.  I have a problem.  I state it.  You have a problem with me doing so, don't clutter up a thread about what I see an issue.  Stay on topic.  Oh, and don't defend people for derailing a thread.  Threads have subjects for a reason on a discussion board.

I'd say that if there weren't a single person in your Clan that not only was unable to make a tablet, but that furthermore, lacked the ability to even acquire one without twinking (if acquiring cures for basic poisons is somehow twinking), whether themselves or through some other contact...That you were just unlucky and paying the toll for being in a iso clan. For the vast majority of the playerbase, all but the rarest of poisons are 20-50 sid inconvenience already. And the 'rarest' poisons not only have a higher fail rate, but with recent code changes, it is far more easier to snap out of the state they put into. 

[FightClub]

Then why even post, e-mail.

An email doesn't send my message to the entire playerbase that may feel similarly.  An email will probably only be seen by one person that may just disagree with me, and I don't care to be swept under the carpet by one person.  It'll take a platoon.

A-typically people do not read what Spawnloser posts, because A-typically spawnloser is ranting away with his "better than all" speech.  As opposed to people not reading what I post because I troll.  Anyway, I have my doubts that you'll get much of anything from anyone, because you are spawnloser, should've used an alternative account, does wonders.

Bud, the core of the issue is that your character had very little contact with anybody else. That put you in a great deal of disadvantage. Including lack of antidotes, lack of good armor, lack of good weapons, lack of anything that you yourself couldnt make. You shouldnt blame the poison, you should blame your tribemates (if this was of a tribe), who've failed to create a reasonable supply of antidotes for their buddies. Or you should blame the harsh rules of the tribe, for generally making people survive on their own, exercising survival of the fittest. Your character ... wasnt the fittest. But I might be off, since I do not know IC events.

So I should blame everyone else that played with me that didn't produce... when their characters did not have the skill?  That sounds just as productive as blaming you personally for not coming to my character to provide the cures.  I like this plan.  It's your fault.

Oh, and Lakota, I am direct.  I have a problem.  I state it.  You have a problem with me doing so, don't clutter up a thread about what I see an issue.  Stay on topic.  Oh, and don't defend people for derailing a thread.  Threads have subjects for a reason on a discussion board.

And don't tell people what to do, you're not a moderator, you're not an imm, leave it to those who are qualified for the matter.

[Ammut]

I've lost quite a few characters to bloodburn, basically because I didn't have tablets.  Only one character miraculously survived after being unconscious outside of the Allanak gates for like 6 hours in game (why no one killed him or took his stuff, I don't know). 

Even my dwarves who supposedly have some crazy poison resistance are affected by bloodburn to the point that I've almost died waiting to see if I would just... shrug it off.  I had to pop a tablet and was pretty irritated that my endurance wasn't able to fight off the affects.

I think poisons should be re-looked, yes.  I think that some classes rely on poisons, so it would be unfair to make it difficult to kill someone with them if they had above average endurance or more.  I'm not sure where to draw the line, but I think it should be re-drawn, or perhaps make certain types of those poisons either weaker/stronger.

[Olgaris]

Stop being snippy jerks.