Special apps

[Qzzrbl]

I'm all for not allowing people to app roles that are one or two karma above what they currently have.

But I'll be damned if I'm denied my chance to app that flying, poisoned-fanged, disease-ridden, sewer-crawling, shorter-than-allowed, lighter-than-allowed, can-see-in-the-dark, can-burn-you-with-pee mutant of doom.

[Nyr]

Why do we have players asking to play roles they lack the karma for? That defeats the purpose of the karma system. If you don't have the karma necessary to play a nilazi, then too bad.

To answer the question, we have the special app system for several reasons.
http://www.armageddon.org/general/special.php

No, it's not a perfect system, but it works well enough.

If you do not have karma and feel like you've been overlooked, request your account notes. It works.

Sometimes, yes.

Allow players to ask for sponsored roles in clans and such, so long as they have the karma. Allow players to request extra skills or perhaps other things to round out a unique concept they have in mind, so long as they have proven themselves capable in the past.

This would be special apping, yes.  This is generally what determines what people get special applications approved.

I'm tired of buttons that launch nuclear weapons being put beneath the twitching digits of tards.

You can submit player complaints through the request queue, and we'll take a look at things.  To be fair, there's no way for you or other players to tell whether or not someone got a special application approved and plays a role poorly, or has the karma for a role and plays a role poorly.  That determination is something that the staff can make, and we'd really appreciate knowing if someone isn't roleplaying something properly.

Cutting out these sort of special applications will free up immortal time and let staffers focus on what they -should- be spending their time on: clans, their players, and Armageddon Reborn.

One staffer at a time works on special apps.  They're the bottom of the barrel of priority.  I think that staff members are able to manage their volunteer time alright themselves.

If the complaint here is "there are people abusing their power" or "people are not roleplaying their high-karma/special app roles well," then that can be dealt with with a player complaint, which staff members do take seriously and will deal with it after investigation.

[Medena]

You can submit player complaints through the request queue, and we'll take a look at things.  To be fair, there's no way for you or other players to tell whether or not someone got a special application approved and plays a role poorly, or has the karma for a role and plays a role poorly.  That determination is something that the staff can make, and we'd really appreciate knowing if someone isn't roleplaying something properly.
...
If the complaint here is "there are people abusing their power" or "people are not roleplaying their high-karma/special app roles well," then that can be dealt with with a player complaint, which staff members do take seriously and will deal with it after investigation.

It was my understanding that player complaints were for the purpose of reporting rule violations, explicit or implicit, and not for a criticism of role play.  If this isn't the case I believe it should be since what constitutes good or poor role play is highly subjective.  By way of example, I often see people here on the boards criticizing Group X for certain things which, in my opinion, aren't poor role play at all but more a case of "well, that's not how I'd do that..."  I agree that "people abusing their power" should be reported but do you really want to be reading a lot of "I don't think muls should be played like player X does." ?

[Nyr]

You can submit player complaints through the request queue, and we'll take a look at things.  To be fair, there's no way for you or other players to tell whether or not someone got a special application approved and plays a role poorly, or has the karma for a role and plays a role poorly.  That determination is something that the staff can make, and we'd really appreciate knowing if someone isn't roleplaying something properly.
...
If the complaint here is "there are people abusing their power" or "people are not roleplaying their high-karma/special app roles well," then that can be dealt with with a player complaint, which staff members do take seriously and will deal with it after investigation.

It was my understanding that player complaints were for the purpose of reporting rule violations, explicit or implicit, and not for a criticism of role play.  If this isn't the case I believe it should be since what constitutes good or poor role play is highly subjective.  By way of example, I often see people here on the boards criticizing Group X for certain things which, in my opinion, aren't poor role play at all but more a case of "well, that's not how I'd do that..."  I agree that "people abusing their power" should be reported but do you really want to be reading a lot of "I don't think muls should be played like player X does." ?

Player complaints are NOT forwarded to the players like kudos are.  (We promise.)
They are sent to staff, and staff looks at it and sees if it's a valid complaint/deals with it from there.
You're right, though.  Sometimes it is simply a difference of opinion.  That's where staff investigation and interpretation of a complaint comes into play.

[Good Gortok]

I think special applications should be restricted to guilds/races 1 karma level above what you currently have. I've seen some unspeakably poor players sitting behind the wheels of half-giants, krathis, elkrosians and even higher. This is very bad for the game, and to ask to play a role several karma levels above yours seems really greedy and conceited to me.

[brytta.leofa]

I think special applications should be restricted to guilds/races 1 karma level above what you currently have.

I'd rather see a 2-karma player playing the Krathi he wants to play than the half-giant he thinks he has to play before he can get the Krathi option.

[nessalin]

I think special applications should be restricted to guilds/races 1 karma level above what you currently have. I've seen some unspeakably poor players sitting behind the wheels of half-giants, krathis, elkrosians and even higher. This is very bad for the game, and to ask to play a role several karma levels above yours seems really greedy and conceited to me.

As Nyr pointed out, you really have no way of knowing if people you see role-playing badly are special apps or not.  You can file a player complaint and we'll look to see if it was bad RP - because, again, what made seem like bad RP to you may be perfectly IC as a result of events you and your character don't know about.

[WarriorPoet]

Karma guilds are the suck anyway. For little people with little dreams. BANG! POW! ZAP! SEE MY FIREBALL??!!??!?!

Compensating, folks?

-WP has nothing meaningful to contribute.

[Zoltan]

The only time I could see myself special apping is for a mundane with extra skills in accordance with their strange background. If I have the karma, I'll play something, but I've got so many character ideas bouncing around in my head that I don't think I'll be feeling the need to get outside of the box any time soon.

[Qzzrbl]

You can submit player complaints through the request queue, and we'll take a look at things.  To be fair, there's no way for you or other players to tell whether or not someone got a special application approved and plays a role poorly, or has the karma for a role and plays a role poorly.  That determination is something that the staff can make, and we'd really appreciate knowing if someone isn't roleplaying something properly.
...
If the complaint here is "there are people abusing their power" or "people are not roleplaying their high-karma/special app roles well," then that can be dealt with with a player complaint, which staff members do take seriously and will deal with it after investigation.

It was my understanding that player complaints were for the purpose of reporting rule violations, explicit or implicit, and not for a criticism of role play. 

The mul who rp's getting something pregnant.

The half-giant who does calculus in the sand with a stick.

The city-bound desert-elf.

These kinds of things aren't strictly disallowed by rules, but there had damn well better be some good IC reasons behind them.

Sending a player complaint doesn't mean punishment for the player, it just warrants that the Staff keep an eye on this player for a little bit to make sure everything's hunky-dory. 

[musashi]

I'm of the opinion that if staff thinks the special app system is fine, I think the special app system is fine. From what meager experience I've had with special apps, I don't think the system is broken too badly ... and as has been stated, I feel like unless a person is doing a bit of bad form themselves (by mixing IC and OOC info) they probably don't know if the mage/mul/half-giant in front of them is special app'ed or just a karma player ... and they probably don't know if the person has an IC reason to be doing what they're doing or not.

I think special applications should be restricted to guilds/races 1 karma level above what you currently have. I've seen some unspeakably poor players sitting behind the wheels of half-giants, krathis, elkrosians and even higher. This is very bad for the game, and to ask to play a role several karma levels above yours seems really greedy and conceited to me.

To me, a player who assumes that they have the ability to judge another player's caliber despite the fact that their perception and knowledge is quite limited; and then make sweeping judgements based off that, which would apply to all players including the ones they've never RP'ed with before ... seems just a touch more conceited.

[Good Gortok]

To me, a perosn who assumes that they have the ability to judge another player's caliber from the limited perspective of being a player themselves, and then make sweeping judgements that apply to all players including the ones they've never RP'ed with before ... seems really greedy and conceited.

It has nothing to do with judging anyone's caliber, that's an illogical assumption considering that I did not mention any specific player or groups of players, but rather the problem of intending to play a character whose race or guild requires so much more karma than what you have earned that there are other options - which cost less - that you haven't even earned the privilege to play. For the context of the discussion, namely karma being awarded when one allegedly proves their worth by playing a special-apped character of that type, I don't see the validity in allowing, say, a 2-karma player the right to play a half-giant after not completely botching an attempt at playing a Krathi. It's not like you have to actually perform as is expected of someone with the level of karma that the guild requires, you just have to not actually have the option taken away as a consequence of your performance, and so I disagree with earning karma that way unless it's earned through playing the option that you are going to become eligible for with that additional point of karma.

In general, I strongly disagree with the common notion that special apps are a means to gain karma. It encourages frequent playing of special-apped characters and rewards those who do so often, the players who essentially are playing options above what they have earned. As it stands, if someone wants to earn as much karma as possible, the most effective way of doing so is to repeatedly play characters that no staff member has of their own accord considered them eligible for but rather agreed to letting them try. You can apply once a month, so unless the staff actually tells you not to, which I have never heard of, you could easily play back-to-back special-app characters and simply maintain an effectively higher karma level than you have earned. Meanwhile, someone playing non-karma options (or options they have the karma for) brilliantly, because they are capable of doing so and supposedly do it out of a desire to play what they do best rather than what they haven't been judged capable of, is almost guaranteed to not be rewarded as readily.

[musashi]

It has nothing to do with judging anyone's caliber, that's an illogical assumption considering that I did not mention any specific player or groups of players, but rather the problem of intending to play a character whose race or guild requires so much more karma than what you have earned that there are other options - which cost less - that you haven't even earned the privilege to play.

Sorry for any misunderstanding, it's just that to me ... when you said "I've seen some unspeakably poor players sitting behind the wheels of half-giants, krathis, elkrosians and even higher. " It sounded like you were in fact, mentioning a specific group of players ... namely, the unspeakably poor ones who special app'ed half-giants, krathis, elkrosians, and even higher.

And since you were calling them unspeakably poor in terms of their ability to play their characters, again, it just sounded like you were judging their caliber as a player, to me anyway.

So from where I was standing ... that sounded very concieted since as I said, unless you were a staff member, or mixing up OOC and IC information, you shouldn't have those players' full  character backgrounds and player account information, hence you shouldn't have the full picture required to state something as uncompromising as "This is very bad for the game."

If that wasn't what you were getting at, and I was just reading it wrong, my apologises, but it didn't seem so illogical the way I read it.

For the context of the discussion, namely karma being awarded when one allegedly proves their worth by playing a special-apped character of that type, I don't see the validity in allowing, say, a 2-karma player the right to play a half-giant after not completely botching an attempt at playing a Krathi. It's not like you have to actually perform as is expected of someone with the level of karma that the guild requires, you just have to not actually have the option taken away as a consequence of your performance, and so I disagree with earning karma that way unless it's earned through playing the option that you are going to become eligible for with that additional point of karma.

While I can see where you're coming from I think ... it seems to me like the normal way to get karma functions exactly the same. I mean to say, if staff decides to just up and give someone a point of karma for good RP (as they often do) that person will have never actually played the new options that point unlocks for them as yet.

Likewise ... if someone special app's a role above their karma level, and staff decide to give them a point of karma for good RP with that special app PC and it unlocks some options they've never played before ... well, I don't see the functional difference.

I think the only reason people suggest that special app'ing a character will help get karma is because it will make sure that the staff take a look at the player's account, both prior to reviewing the app, and afterwards if the app is approved because they're keeping an eye out since said player is sort of on a "trail run".

Small Edit: I just wanted to add that I believe we most certainly do have to play a special app'ed role as though we actually had the karma for it in terms of our performance. Staff has said already that account notes are one of the big determining factors in deciding if a special app gets approved, so I would imagine that if the player in question had not already built up their name a bit by demostraiting their ability to perform, they would not be getting approved in the first place.

In general, I strongly disagree with the common notion that special apps are a means to gain karma. It encourages frequent playing of special-apped characters and rewards those who do so often, the players who essentially are playing options above what they have earned. As it stands, if someone wants to earn as much karma as possible, the most effective way of doing so is to repeatedly play characters that no staff member has of their own accord considered them eligible for but rather agreed to letting them try. You can apply once a month, so unless the staff actually tells you not to, which I have never heard of, you could easily play back-to-back special-app characters and simply maintain an effectively higher karma level than you have earned. Meanwhile, someone playing non-karma options brilliantly, because they are capable of doing so and supposedly do it out of a desire to play what they do best rather than what they haven't been judged capable of, is almost guaranteed to not be rewarded as readily.

I have to say, I would agree with this ... if the staff members were unthinking machines. But since they aren't, I have full faith in their ability to recognize when someone is playing nothing but back to back special app characters. I also have full faith in their ability to judge for themselves if that sort of behavior is a-ok, or in need of correction.

The one thing I can agree with you on is the mention that someone could be playing a non-karma role brilliantly but slipping through the cracks. But, I think it's very unlikely that they are "almost guaranteed" not to be rewarded as readily provided they are doing what they need to be doing as a player.

What I mean is, the staff are only people, the players are only people, so we have to meet one another half-way. If a player is sending in character updates, keeping staff informed of what they're doing, and RP'ing their heart out, I whole heartedly doubt that the staff will fail to reward the player accordingly.

Special apps are just one way to help staff see that a player is deserving of a bit more trust in the game, there are other options for players who happen to not want/need a special app to get their just rewards as well, and I don't think either method is going to garner karma any faster than the other.

[FantasyWriter]

If you don't mind me asking, Lakota, what got you on the anti-special-app kick?

Edited to add:

The reason I asked is because when you start a post out like this:

Get rid of this shit. We don't need it. Why do we have players asking to play roles they lack the karma for? That defeats the purpose of the karma system. If you don't have the karma necessary to play a nilazi, then too bad.

...it makes you look really inconsiderate and hateful (this coming from someone that has backed you up on several heated threads before).

Special apps have been a part of the game for most of its life, AFAIK.
The karma system we have is great, although flawed at times, but I cant see any way that it could be made better.

In my opinion, special apps are important to the game. 
The ability to make "custom" PCs adds flavor that would not be available through simple race/guild/sub selection.

As for playing above your karma level, why not?  Karma keeps "bad"/untested players from reeking havoc in a RPI world.
However, special apps are sent through a more rigorous set of standards than even our regular apps, and can take months to get approved.
And as it has been mentioned in this thread by players and other threads by staff, special app PCs are kept a very close eye on staff side.

It seems to me that someone who is approved a PC through a special app, would have to be much more careful with their PC's RP and actions than someone who already
had the karma to play the same character type, and will be less likely to do things that would cause them to risk loosing their PC and/or current karma or karma they might aquire through the role.

[Fathi]

So from where I was standing ... that sounded very concieted since as I said, unless you were a staff member, or mixing up OOC and IC information, you shouldn't have those players' full  character backgrounds and player account information, hence you shouldn't have the full picture required to state something as uncompromising as "This is very bad for the game."

I don't find it particularly conceited. I've seen roleplay on all ends on the karma spectrum that I have no problem whatsoever with calling unspeakably poor or bad for the game.

That high-karma race guy that I saw power-emoting beating the everloving shit out of NPCs in a populated, crimflagged area without actually using 'hit' or wishing up, just "em breaks %dude face"? Yeah, that is poor.

The high karma guild guys who tried to power emote their way through a scene they didn't have complete control over that SHOULD have required asking consent, which they neglected to do? Quite poor.

These are all things that should be (and were) taken up with the game's staff, sure. But I don't see why we, as players, can't look at situations where the RP or the OOC ethics IS unspeakably poor practice, especially for a player that supposedly has a good deal of karma.

It becomes conceited when you start accusing a large number of people of being unspeakably poor. Or a majority of karma-race/karma-guild PCs. Or when you start deeming any RP you personally disagree with or any situation you find unsavoury as unspeakably poor. I don't, however, find it conceited in the slightest to point out when people are obviously breaking the rules.

[musashi]

So from where I was standing ... that sounded very concieted since as I said, unless you were a staff member, or mixing up OOC and IC information, you shouldn't have those players' full  character backgrounds and player account information, hence you shouldn't have the full picture required to state something as uncompromising as "This is very bad for the game."

I don't find it particularly conceited. I've seen roleplay on all ends on the karma spectrum that I have no problem whatsoever with calling unspeakably poor or bad for the game.

That high-karma race guy that I saw power-emoting beating the everloving shit out of NPCs in a populated, crimflagged area without actually using 'hit' or wishing up, just "em breaks %dude face"? Yeah, that is poor.

The high karma guild guys who tried to power emote their way through a scene they didn't have complete control over that SHOULD have required asking consent, which they neglected to do? Quite poor.

These are all things that should be (and were) taken up with the game's staff, sure. But I don't see why we, as players, can't look at situations where the RP or the OOC ethics IS unspeakably poor practice, especially for a player that supposedly has a good deal of karma.

It becomes conceited when you start accusing a large number of people of being unspeakably poor. Or a majority of karma-race/karma-guild PCs. Or when you start deeming any RP you personally disagree with or any situation you find unsavoury as unspeakably poor. I don't, however, find it conceited in the slightest to point out when people are obviously breaking the rules.

Hence the reason I preface all of my comments with some variation of: I think/I feel/In my opinion ... because it's just that, my opinion, I'm not trying to say it's the definitive word, just the thought that's bouncing around in my brain at the moment.

But that aside, I agree with you Fathi, it just seems to me that assuming that every PC one sees playing a karma role poorly is a special app'ed character being abused, would constitude accusing a large number of people of being unspeakably poor; people who special app.

But we can likely take this to PM if you want ... since I think talking about what we consider concieted is perhaps a bit of a derail.

[Lakota]

If you don't mind me asking, Lakota, what got you on the anti-special-app kick?

Guy, as long as you've known me (admittedly, not that long) you've undoubtedly seen that I express myself in ways not necessarily as eloquent as a member of this community should. I say what is on my mind, and don't attempt to sugar coat shit.

I got on this "kick" because I have been playing this game around a decade now, and through my time spent here I have spoken to hundreds of players on various occassions. Sometimes, the topic of special apping came up. Now, having played with these individuals, I found myself simultaneously humored and horrified that not only did they app the high-karma role, but were -accepted-, going on to play the race rather poorly.

I'm not saying I want the ability to special app sponsored characters or characters with extra/unique abilities taken away. Rather, I just want there to be a limit on what you -can- special app. Namely, high-karma roles that are above your current accumulated karma. If I had it my way, no one would be allowed to app a level over their current. Hell, if I had it my way retired staff members wouldn't be allowed to keep their accounts and the max karma that comes with it, but that's just me.

[Vanth]

Just for the record, we do consider your current karma level when reviewing a special application.  We don't, for example, generally give 8-karma roles to 0-karma players.  We might give an 8-karma role to a 5-karma player, though.

[Cerelum]

Just for the record, we do consider your current karma level when reviewing a special application.  We don't, for example, generally give 8-karma roles to 0-karma players.  We might give an 8-karma role to a 5-karma player, though.

Yeah it seems like +1 karma than you have is very easy to get approved, +2 not so much harder, +3 pretty hard, +4 or more, I think you would be better off trying to climb the shield wall on a one day burglar.

JaRoD

[musashi]

Hell, if I had it my way retired staff members wouldn't be allowed to keep their accounts and the max karma that comes with it, but that's just me.

I think that's a bit overboard.

[Lakota]

Hell, if I had it my way retired staff members wouldn't be allowed to keep their accounts and the max karma that comes with it, but that's just me.

I think that's a bit overboard.

I think not. Without naming names, there is one ex-staffer in particular who has a penchant for rolling sorcerors. If I remember correctly, they played two back to back. With the same little coterie of power rangers, no less.

In my opinion, having max karma as a staff member isn't necessarily so much a measure trust as it is a privelege. Once you are no longer on staff, you are once more a normal player. You should be held accountable for your actions and subject to review. In other words, you should have to earn your stripes like everyone else. And no, I don't think being on staff for a few years automatically allows said staff member to retain max karma.

[musashi]

I would think that if you're trusted enough by the staff to be staff, then you should be trusted with 8 karma.

My way of thinking about it is something like ... Too bad if there have been staff members in the past who retired and then turned a little bad-apple-ish but, they are just people ... people who give up a lot of their time to try and make the game enjoyable for everyone else, so in exchange for that unpaid labor, I think 8 karma is probably the least the can receive ... because at the end of the day, it's a game, not the codes to the missile silos of the midwest or anything.

[NoteworthyFellow]

I would think that if you're trusted enough by the staff to be staff, then you should be trusted with 8 karma.

That's my way of looking at it.  I would think that, by being selected to be on staff, one has clearly displayed that they deserve a level of trust far above maximum karma, so if they step down, why shouldn't they still be trusted?

[Lakota]

I would think that, by being selected to be on staff, one has clearly displayed that they deserve a level of trust far above maximum karma, so if they step down, why shouldn't they still be trusted?

Because they're not staff anymore? Eventually there will be one hundred legends in ArmageddonMUD, half of which may decide to still play. For balance's sake, mayhaps.

[NoteworthyFellow]

I would think that, by being selected to be on staff, one has clearly displayed that they deserve a level of trust far above maximum karma, so if they step down, why shouldn't they still be trusted?

Because they're not staff anymore? Eventually there will be one hundred legends in ArmageddonMUD, half of which may decide to still play. For balance's sake, mayhaps.

They've already earned that trust, is what I'm saying.  By being selected to be on staff, the other staff have shown that this person has demonstrated that they're worthy of some of the highest levels of trust offered in this game.  It isn't given lightly.  Even when they opt not to be on staff anymore, I would argue that they haven't un-earned that trust, and so they should be allowed to keep it.