Is unarmed combat underpowered?

[brytta.leofa]

> shout (snarling) C'mon, yeh 'toks!  It's jus' a flesh wound!

[Bilanthri]

You guys should go watch aikido demonstrations.

It's very possible to pwn someone who has a weapon when you don't, if you put the hours into learning how.

The thing is ... it's just a lot easier and quicker to learn how to use a tool (ie a weapon) instead, so the path of least resistance won out through the course of history. And ... well there isn't anything wrong with that.

This is right on the money about unarmed martial arts. I've been a practitioner of Aikido, among other forms, and I have personally seen a 100lb woman take a bokken away from a 250lb man, and then fling him a good 6-7ft. But, as is to be expected, the woman was in her 70's while the man was in his 30's. Experience is the telling factor in unarmed combat...enough knowledge can take away most of the advantage size and strength offer a combatant.

[Tisiphone]

Stuff about martial arts

Sure, sure, but you're not giving the armed side its due. Even if you're an aikido master, if the person coming at you with a sword has even comparable skill, and is intent on killing you, you're going to take a beating.

[RogueGunslinger]

Weapon in one hand? Or one armed man fighting?

[fourTwenty]

Unarmed combat is functioning at exactly the level we want it to. There is no Bruce Lee, Royce Gracie, or Chuck Norris in Armageddon, and we like it fine that way.

Along these lines. As long as martial arts have been around it's just now, I'm talking last 40 years that they actually became as functional as everyone would like to believe. It began with Bruce Lee's school of thought about having no 1 style and adapting to the fight and it exploded with BJJ and MMA. Even though Martial Arts have been studied since pretty much the dawn of time they only now are reaching the levels people long thought existed. I don't see Zalnathians as having put that much time into unarmed combat.

As for akidio demonstrations and such this shit is great to watch and teaches fitness as well as self discipline. And once you have studied it long enough (10+ years) you will probably fuck most average schmos up. Unfortunately this crap doesn't really work against people with fight experience. I'm talking brawlers and boxers and MMA practitioners.

If an average person comes at you with a pool stick you stand a pretty good chance of at least not getting KTFO. But if an Eskrima practitioner(as little as 3 years) comes at you with a club and your unarmed your gonna get KTFOWYWB,S. I don't give a damn how long you been practicing don't-get-hit-with-the-stick fu.

[musashi]

Unarmed combat is functioning at exactly the level we want it to. There is no Bruce Lee, Royce Gracie, or Chuck Norris in Armageddon, and we like it fine that way.

Along these lines. As long as martial arts have been around it's just now, I'm talking last 40 years that they actually became as functional as everyone would like to believe. It began with Bruce Lee's school of thought about having no 1 style and adapting to the fight and it exploded with BJJ and MMA. Even though Martial Arts have been studied since pretty much the dawn of time they only now are reaching the levels people long thought existed. I don't see Zalnathians as having put that much time into unarmed combat.

As for akidio demonstrations and such this shit is great to watch and teaches fitness as well as self discipline. And once you have studied it long enough (10+ years) you will probably fuck most average schmos up. Unfortunately this crap doesn't really work against people with fight experience. I'm talking brawlers and boxers and MMA practitioners.

If an average person comes at you with a pool stick you stand a pretty good chance of at least not getting KTFO. But if an Eskrima practitioner(as little as 3 years) comes at you with a club and your unarmed your gonna get KTFOWYWB,S. I don't give a damn how long you been practicing don't-get-hit-with-the-stick fu.

As someone currently studying Chinese language, culture, and history ... I feel confident in assuring you that you're entirely wrong in almost 100 percent of what you just posted. Sorry.

Stuff about martial arts

Sure, sure, but you're not giving the armed side its due. Even if you're an aikido master, if the person coming at you with a sword has even comparable skill, and is intent on killing you, you're going to take a beating.

I believe I did give the armed side its due when I said it was easier to get to that competent level faster because you're utilizing a tool to aid you in your task, and that there isn't anything wrong with that.

[Clearsighted]

You guys should go watch aikido demonstrations.

It's very possible to pwn someone who has a weapon when you don't, if you put the hours into learning how.

The thing is ... it's just a lot easier and quicker to learn how to use a tool (ie a weapon) instead, so the path of least resistance won out through the course of history. And ... well there isn't anything wrong with that.

This is right on the money about unarmed martial arts. I've been a practitioner of Aikido, among other forms, and I have personally seen a 100lb woman take a bokken away from a 250lb man, and then fling him a good 6-7ft. But, as is to be expected, the woman was in her 70's while the man was in his 30's. Experience is the telling factor in unarmed combat...enough knowledge can take away most of the advantage size and strength offer a combatant.

I've personally always thought those martial arts demonstrations were...how to put it...'half' a matter of skill, and half a matter of putting on a show. Especially since in Aikido, half the training seems to be about being thrown as opposed to doing the throwing.

While knowledge can even the playing field against size and strength, it is just one part of the whole. I do not think that any seventy year old woman can legitimately disarm a man in his 30s against his will. In fact, I would suggest that most 30 year old men could not disarm their opponent in an legitimate lethal fight without sustaining injury.

Unarmed combat is functioning at exactly the level we want it to. There is no Bruce Lee, Royce Gracie, or Chuck Norris in Armageddon, and we like it fine that way.

Along these lines. As long as martial arts have been around it's just now, I'm talking last 40 years that they actually became as functional as everyone would like to believe. It began with Bruce Lee's school of thought about having no 1 style and adapting to the fight and it exploded with BJJ and MMA. Even though Martial Arts have been studied since pretty much the dawn of time they only now are reaching the levels people long thought existed. I don't see Zalnathians as having put that much time into unarmed combat.

As for akidio demonstrations and such this shit is great to watch and teaches fitness as well as self discipline. And once you have studied it long enough (10+ years) you will probably fuck most average schmos up. Unfortunately this crap doesn't really work against people with fight experience. I'm talking brawlers and boxers and MMA practitioners.

If an average person comes at you with a pool stick you stand a pretty good chance of at least not getting KTFO. But if an Eskrima practitioner(as little as 3 years) comes at you with a club and your unarmed your gonna get KTFOWYWB,S. I don't give a damn how long you been practicing don't-get-hit-with-the-stick fu.

As someone currently studying Chinese language, culture, and history ... I feel confident in assuring you that you're entirely wrong in almost 100 percent of what you just posted. Sorry.

Just out of idle curiosity, how does studying Chinese culture, history, etc, reflect on fourtwenty's post's validity?

On a somewhat related note, people seem to forget that the Orient does not have a monopoly on the history of martial arts. There were a great many elaborate martial arts systems in Ireland, Spain, France, Greece, etc. It's just that they faded and became obsolete when the use of swords and then pistols became dominant. The only thing unique about the Oriental martial arts is that they retained them longer, for reasons as much as societal (such as actively regulating the ownership of swords) as being a couple centuries behind the gunpowder curve. It's true though that only recently has martial interest been 'rediscovered' in the West and that phenomena is in large part due to Bruce Lee's influence.

[staggerlee]

You guys should go watch aikido demonstrations.

It's very possible to pwn someone who has a weapon when you don't, if you put the hours into learning how.

The thing is ... it's just a lot easier and quicker to learn how to use a tool (ie a weapon) instead, so the path of least resistance won out through the course of history. And ... well there isn't anything wrong with that.

This is right on the money about unarmed martial arts. I've been a practitioner of Aikido, among other forms, and I have personally seen a 100lb woman take a bokken away from a 250lb man, and then fling him a good 6-7ft. But, as is to be expected, the woman was in her 70's while the man was in his 30's. Experience is the telling factor in unarmed combat...enough knowledge can take away most of the advantage size and strength offer a combatant.

I've personally always thought those martial arts demonstrations were...how to put it...'half' a matter of skill, and half a matter of putting on a show. Especially since in Aikido, half the training seems to be about being thrown as opposed to doing the throwing.

While knowledge can even the playing field against size and strength, it is just one part of the whole. I do not think that any seventy year old woman can legitimately disarm a man in his 30s against his will. In fact, I would suggest that most 30 year old men could not disarm their opponent in an legitimate lethal fight without sustaining injury.

Unarmed combat is functioning at exactly the level we want it to. There is no Bruce Lee, Royce Gracie, or Chuck Norris in Armageddon, and we like it fine that way.

Along these lines. As long as martial arts have been around it's just now, I'm talking last 40 years that they actually became as functional as everyone would like to believe. It began with Bruce Lee's school of thought about having no 1 style and adapting to the fight and it exploded with BJJ and MMA. Even though Martial Arts have been studied since pretty much the dawn of time they only now are reaching the levels people long thought existed. I don't see Zalnathians as having put that much time into unarmed combat.

As for akidio demonstrations and such this shit is great to watch and teaches fitness as well as self discipline. And once you have studied it long enough (10+ years) you will probably fuck most average schmos up. Unfortunately this crap doesn't really work against people with fight experience. I'm talking brawlers and boxers and MMA practitioners.

If an average person comes at you with a pool stick you stand a pretty good chance of at least not getting KTFO. But if an Eskrima practitioner(as little as 3 years) comes at you with a club and your unarmed your gonna get KTFOWYWB,S. I don't give a damn how long you been practicing don't-get-hit-with-the-stick fu.

As someone currently studying Chinese language, culture, and history ... I feel confident in assuring you that you're entirely wrong in almost 100 percent of what you just posted. Sorry.

Just out of idle curiosity, how does studying Chinese culture, history, etc, reflect on fourtwenty's post's validity?

On a somewhat related note, people seem to forget that the Orient does not have a monopoly on the history of martial arts. There were a great many elaborate martial arts systems in Ireland, Spain, France, Greece, etc. It's just that they faded and became obsolete when the use of swords and then pistols became dominant. The only thing unique about the Oriental martial arts is that they retained them longer, for reasons as much as societal (such as actively regulating the ownership of swords) as being a couple centuries behind the gunpowder curve. It's true though that only recently has martial interest been 'rediscovered' in the West and that phenomena is in large part due to Bruce Lee's influence.

Er what... the orient was a couple centuries behind the gunpowder curve?  You might want to check your facts on that.

We can always talk extremes.  But for the most part, someone with a weapon will beat someone without one. It's easier, that's the point.

[FantasyWriter]

I think you should be able to sap unarmed, in addition to it being done with only bludgeoning weapons.
Less effectively, of course.

A thick, dense dwarf should be able to KO an unobservant elven guard fairly easily with his fist.
(Yes, i realize that a dwarf could not reach the back of a standing elf's head or neck. )

[Clearsighted]

You guys should go watch aikido demonstrations.

It's very possible to pwn someone who has a weapon when you don't, if you put the hours into learning how.

The thing is ... it's just a lot easier and quicker to learn how to use a tool (ie a weapon) instead, so the path of least resistance won out through the course of history. And ... well there isn't anything wrong with that.

This is right on the money about unarmed martial arts. I've been a practitioner of Aikido, among other forms, and I have personally seen a 100lb woman take a bokken away from a 250lb man, and then fling him a good 6-7ft. But, as is to be expected, the woman was in her 70's while the man was in his 30's. Experience is the telling factor in unarmed combat...enough knowledge can take away most of the advantage size and strength offer a combatant.

I've personally always thought those martial arts demonstrations were...how to put it...'half' a matter of skill, and half a matter of putting on a show. Especially since in Aikido, half the training seems to be about being thrown as opposed to doing the throwing.

While knowledge can even the playing field against size and strength, it is just one part of the whole. I do not think that any seventy year old woman can legitimately disarm a man in his 30s against his will. In fact, I would suggest that most 30 year old men could not disarm their opponent in an legitimate lethal fight without sustaining injury.

Unarmed combat is functioning at exactly the level we want it to. There is no Bruce Lee, Royce Gracie, or Chuck Norris in Armageddon, and we like it fine that way.

Along these lines. As long as martial arts have been around it's just now, I'm talking last 40 years that they actually became as functional as everyone would like to believe. It began with Bruce Lee's school of thought about having no 1 style and adapting to the fight and it exploded with BJJ and MMA. Even though Martial Arts have been studied since pretty much the dawn of time they only now are reaching the levels people long thought existed. I don't see Zalnathians as having put that much time into unarmed combat.

As for akidio demonstrations and such this shit is great to watch and teaches fitness as well as self discipline. And once you have studied it long enough (10+ years) you will probably fuck most average schmos up. Unfortunately this crap doesn't really work against people with fight experience. I'm talking brawlers and boxers and MMA practitioners.

If an average person comes at you with a pool stick you stand a pretty good chance of at least not getting KTFO. But if an Eskrima practitioner(as little as 3 years) comes at you with a club and your unarmed your gonna get KTFOWYWB,S. I don't give a damn how long you been practicing don't-get-hit-with-the-stick fu.

As someone currently studying Chinese language, culture, and history ... I feel confident in assuring you that you're entirely wrong in almost 100 percent of what you just posted. Sorry.

Just out of idle curiosity, how does studying Chinese culture, history, etc, reflect on fourtwenty's post's validity?

On a somewhat related note, people seem to forget that the Orient does not have a monopoly on the history of martial arts. There were a great many elaborate martial arts systems in Ireland, Spain, France, Greece, etc. It's just that they faded and became obsolete when the use of swords and then pistols became dominant. The only thing unique about the Oriental martial arts is that they retained them longer, for reasons as much as societal (such as actively regulating the ownership of swords) as being a couple centuries behind the gunpowder curve. It's true though that only recently has martial interest been 'rediscovered' in the West and that phenomena is in large part due to Bruce Lee's influence.

Er what... the orient was a couple centuries behind the gunpowder curve?  You might want to check your facts on that.

We can always talk extremes.  But for the most part, someone with a weapon will beat someone without one. It's easier, that's the point.

Obviously, by gunpowder curve, I meant the widespread adoption and production of firearms. See the Opium War and Commodore Perry.

[jhunter]

I'd rather see it possible for a very skilled unarmed combatant to defend themselves effectively against an armed opponent. It's possible in RL and I think it should be possible in game. It would be a step to flushing out combat farther and creating more variety to it.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I'd rather see it possible for a very skilled unarmed combatant to defend themselves effectively against an armed opponent. It's possible in RL and I think it should be possible in game. It would be a step to flushing out combat farther and creating more variety to it.

It is possible now. I have personally played a character that could disarm a young PC and beat them without using a weapon myself.

Desertman, by the way, can confirm this.

[jhunter]

I suppose I mean more that there are different unarmed abilities that you can use to further turn the tide in your favor. I'd still like to see someone who is skilled in unarmed combat and skilled with disarming opponents be able to do it against others without having to have a weapon themselves.
I'd like to see a skilled unarmed combatant be able to restrain an attacker as well.

Example:

Guy with sword attacks guy without weapon. Guy without weapon deflects armed guy's weapon arm outside and steps in to pull him into a subdue-like grasp, keeping control over his weapon arm.

More possibility of things like that.

[Bilanthri]

As for akidio demonstrations and such this shit is great to watch and teaches fitness as well as self discipline. And once you have studied it long enough (10+ years) you will probably fuck most average schmos up. Unfortunately this crap doesn't really work against people with fight experience. I'm talking brawlers and boxers and MMA practitioners.

If an average person comes at you with a pool stick you stand a pretty good chance of at least not getting KTFO. But if an Eskrima practitioner(as little as 3 years) comes at you with a club and your unarmed your gonna get KTFOWYWB,S. I don't give a damn how long you been practicing don't-get-hit-with-the-stick fu.

For as long as they have been around, unarmed combat techniques have been designed around an unarmed combatant dealing with possibly(or likely) armed opponents. The various forms stemming from places like Okinawa, Korea, and the Philippines (where Escrima evolved) were based around lower caste or subjugated people teaching ways to deal with said subjugation w/o being arrested/executed for owning and training in weapons.

I make a distinction here between armed and unarmed martial forms, since things like Kenjustu (japanese sword style) are very much martial arts, but far from unarmed styles.

As for Aikido, I think the confusion is that this form is now a "do" or "way" rather than a "jutsu" or "skill". Aikijutsu is not taught at traditional schools anymore...its focus on takedowns, disarms, damaging joint locks, and other offensive maneuvers has been shifted to the study of rolls and falls, redirection of energy, and incapacitation of your foe. That is what happens when an martial form becomes obsolete. Practitioners continue to study, but their focus shifts to the art form rather than the utilitarian needs.
Take Kendo as another example. A kendo practitioner would get their asses handed to them by a kenjutsu practitioner with the same weapon...the kenjutsu artist is more focused on the pragmatic need to kill an opponent, thus has more training in actual combat instances.

Now you wanna talk about an unarmed style that works wonders for whooping an armed opponents ass, check out Sambo.

[Desertman]

I dont see much of a problem myself.

If you are REALLY badass, and unarmed, and you are fighting someone who is relatively new, but armed, you can still beat them.

I have personally done this.

I didnt exactly beat their ass, but in the end, I won. *shrugs*

So its possible with the current code.

[Lakota]

I think you should be able to sap unarmed, in addition to it being done with only bludgeoning weapons.
Less effectively, of course.

A thick, dense dwarf should be able to KO an unobservant elven guard fairly easily with his fist.
(Yes, i realize that a dwarf could not reach the back of a standing elf's head or neck. )

Someone's watched the Princess Bride way too much. 

[Sephiroto]

I believe a skilled fighter should still have a good chance at defending himself against an armed combattant even if he has no weapons, just just punny merchants and 0 day warriors.

[fourTwenty]

Unarmed combat is functioning at exactly the level we want it to. There is no Bruce Lee, Royce Gracie, or Chuck Norris in Armageddon, and we like it fine that way.

Along these lines. As long as martial arts have been around it's just now, I'm talking last 40 years that they actually became as functional as everyone would like to believe. It began with Bruce Lee's school of thought about having no 1 style and adapting to the fight and it exploded with BJJ and MMA. Even though Martial Arts have been studied since pretty much the dawn of time they only now are reaching the levels people long thought existed. I don't see Zalnathians as having put that much time into unarmed combat.

As for akidio demonstrations and such this shit is great to watch and teaches fitness as well as self discipline. And once you have studied it long enough (10+ years) you will probably fuck most average schmos up. Unfortunately this crap doesn't really work against people with fight experience. I'm talking brawlers and boxers and MMA practitioners.

If an average person comes at you with a pool stick you stand a pretty good chance of at least not getting KTFO. But if an Eskrima practitioner(as little as 3 years) comes at you with a club and your unarmed your gonna get KTFOWYWB,S. I don't give a damn how long you been practicing don't-get-hit-with-the-stick fu.

As someone currently studying Chinese language, culture, and history ... I feel confident in assuring you that you're entirely wrong in almost 100 percent of what you just posted. Sorry.

And as someone currently studying Martial Arts I feel confident in assuring you you are a jackass and 100% of what I posted is correct. Chinese language, culture, and history has very little to do with Martial Arts as a whole, seeing as how Martial Arts had been around for centuries before there even was a China.

And I agree with quite a bit if what Bilanthri said but not all of it. Demonstrations are just that "Demonstrations" they absolutly do not reflect a real life occurrence. If you reread my post you will find that my thoughts are thus. Unarmed and experienced vs Armed with not much experience unarmed should (And currently will IG) win that fight. However, I don't care how badass you are unarmed someone with a moderate skill in swordplay will cut you to ribbons. Also Sambo kicks lots of ass.

Also, sapping unarmed would be pretty cool.

[fourTwenty]

As for akidio demonstrations and such this shit is great to watch and teaches fitness as well as self discipline. And once you have studied it long enough (10+ years) you will probably fuck most average schmos up. Unfortunately this crap doesn't really work against people with fight experience. I'm talking brawlers and boxers and MMA practitioners.

If an average person comes at you with a pool stick you stand a pretty good chance of at least not getting KTFO. But if an Eskrima practitioner(as little as 3 years) comes at you with a club and your unarmed your gonna get KTFOWYWB,S. I don't give a damn how long you been practicing don't-get-hit-with-the-stick fu.

For as long as they have been around, unarmed combat techniques have been designed around an unarmed combatant dealing with possibly(or likely) armed opponents. The various forms stemming from places like Okinawa, Korea, and the Philippines (where Escrima evolved) were based around lower caste or subjugated people teaching ways to deal with said subjugation w/o being arrested/executed for owning and training in weapons.

You are skipping centuries of study in the Martial Arts. True martial arts stems all the way back to the Greeks, Romans, and various native peoples. There are techniques for disarming and killing an opponent proven to have been used by Greek and Roman Soldiers still used today. And most martial arts incorporate weapons anyway. Though most weapons styles used like bakkons, si's, and even a simple length of rope where perfected because these where common tools used by farmers that would be readily in hand at anytime. In fact, I know someone originally from a small province in China who has trained his entire life in multiple forms of Gung-Fu who will tell you that a western boxer is the most dangerous martial artist there is. Though he himself is coming to agree with me that MMA is the true path Martial Arts must take.

Edit to add: Ahh, this is very nice. A friend of mine who is also a martial artist but is not a gamer just posed an interesting statement to me after I made him read this thread. It went a little something like this  "Dude, I've been studying Akidio since I was 7 and saw a Steven Segal Movie. (he is now 23) Remember that hot fencer chick we talked about during the Olympics? Yeah, I wouldn't fuck with her.

[Bilanthri]

You are skipping centuries of study in the Martial Arts. True martial arts stems all the way back to the Greeks, Romans, and various native peoples.

Nah...I was just discussing the fact that many eastern styles were devised by poorly equipped peasants, who had only...say....farm implements to defend themselves.

Thanks for reminding us that people like to fight no matter where they grow up 

[fourTwenty]

Thanks for reminding us that people like to fight no matter where they grow up 

Unfortunately, one of the few things that remain constant no matter where in the world you go. Humans are inherently violent.

[FantasyWriter]

I think you should be able to sap unarmed, in addition to it being done with only bludgeoning weapons.
Less effectively, of course.

A thick, dense dwarf should be able to KO an unobservant elven guard fairly easily with his fist.
(Yes, i realize that a dwarf could not reach the back of a standing elf's head or neck. )

Someone's watched the Princess Bride way too much. 

I just watched it over again, and I don't see what you are talking about.

[Bilanthri]

I think you should be able to sap unarmed, in addition to it being done with only bludgeoning weapons.
Less effectively, of course.

A thick, dense dwarf should be able to KO an unobservant elven guard fairly easily with his fist.
(Yes, i realize that a dwarf could not reach the back of a standing elf's head or neck. )

Someone's watched the Princess Bride way too much. 

I just watched it over again, and I don't see what you are talking about.

"Sorry, Indigo...I didn't mean to jog him so hard."
                                               -Fezzik

[FantasyWriter]

"Sorry, Indigo...I didn't mean to jog him so hard."
                                               -Fezik

Ah thanks... I had never watched it until recently bacause so many people on here talked about it... it is a pretty cool movie.

[/derail]

[a strange shadow]

re: the title of this thread:

No.